British Activist Fighting To Avoid Thai Jail Term

[Thai at Heart]

All the manufacturer has to do is prove they comply. Suing the person doing the report is hardly going to bring their customers back is it?

[Fozfromoz]

All the manufacturer has to do is prove they comply. Suing the person doing the report is hardly going to bring their customers back is it?

True but why pass up a chance to make a cool $10 million.

[youngXpat]

Trying to stay on topic, the report directly from FinnWatch via Prachatai, which I have already linked above, re: Natural Fruit mentions that "the findings, that are based on worker interviews done since October 2012." The report specifies how many migrant workers are at the plant but not how many were actually interviewed.

Regarding the US Senator, I did mention that he is under investigation for undue influence on behalf of a constituent. And I am not intending to start reading the Daily Caller.

Who gives about the senator???

[Thai at Heart]

All the manufacturer has to do is prove they comply. Suing the person doing the report is hardly going to bring their customers back is it?

True but why pass up a chance to make a cool $10 million.

You think he has it? Ironically, until they made the lawsuit, virtually no one knew the company name. Now it's splashed every where.

The buyers have the right to insist they comply to the buyers standard. Any buyers want to deal with this company any more? The embassies and the Finnish government will be all over this case.

Someone should make the company back off or they will look very very stupid.

[F4UCorsair]

dcutman said, "Your argument is just not sound and frankly it is ridiculous IMO.

Any country does have the right to dictate how products are made. They are the one's buying the products. What part of that dont you understand? It is irrelevant how any of these countries acted in the past. Its what their laws and moral obligations are today, that is whats relevant.
If you have not noticed or do not know, Thailand has adopted many of the laws, regarding human trafficking and crimes against human rights, that most other developed nations have adopted. So that in itself makes Thailand just as developed as other nations, in that regard.".

I have to admit to losing interest when posters use ridiculous cliches such as "what part of that don't you understand?" It's a mindless, meaningless bit of garbage, perpetrated by those without a serious grasp of the language.

The point I am making is that those countries insisting on 'ethical' manufacturing processes went through the same violation of human rights phase some years ago, and they now have the nerve to insist that other countries fall in line with their new found morality. See my post above re US slavery.

I maintain that the consumer is king and if he demands low cost products, the authorities will bend to permit that to happen, rightly or wrongly. Is Nike still made in sweat shop conditions in 'third world'/undeveloped (and yes, I do understand the term 'third world') countries? Is the US the largest consumer of Nike products?

I'm not anti US, incidentally, but the point needs to be made that it's hypocritical at best when a country has gone through its developmental stage, violating human rights, laws, etc., and then insists that less developed countries fall in line in months rather than many years, just as they insist on democracy for those poor countries that don't have it (provided those countries have oil in sufficient quantities), when they themselves are one of the less democratic countries on the planet.

I agree that Thailand has adopted some of the humanitarian laws of more developed countries, but it's a pity about their justice system!! They don't seem to have come to grips with that yet, and that tells me that they pay little more than lip service to the laws they've 'adopted', so in that regard, they are not as developed as you contend. I understand that they have also adopted laws on trafficking endangered species of animals/animal parts, but that goes on openly in Chatuchak under the noses of the authorities!!

I also lose interest when a poster lacks the most basic of English skills, such as inappropriate use/omission of the apostrophe.

[Thai at Heart]

dcutman said, "Your argument is just not sound and frankly it is ridiculous IMO.

Any country does have the right to dictate how products are made. They are the one's buying the products. What part of that dont you understand? It is irrelevant how any of these countries acted in the past. Its what their laws and moral obligations are today, that is whats relevant.

If you have not noticed or do not know, Thailand has adopted many of the laws, regarding human trafficking and crimes against human rights, that most other developed nations have adopted. So that in itself makes Thailand just as developed as other nations, in that regard.".

I have to admit to losing interest when posters use ridiculous cliches such as "what part of that don't you understand?" It's a mindless, meaningless bit of garbage, perpetrated by those without a serious grasp of the language.

The point I am making is that those countries insisting on 'ethical' manufacturing processes went through the same violation of human rights phase some years ago, and they now have the nerve to insist that other countries fall in line with their new found morality. See my post above re US slavery.

I maintain that the consumer is king and if he demands low cost products, the authorities will bend to permit that to happen, rightly or wrongly. Is Nike still made in sweat shop conditions in 'third world'/undeveloped (and yes, I do understand the term 'third world') countries? Is the US the largest consumer of Nike products?

I'm not anti US, incidentally, but the point needs to be made that it's hypocritical at best when a country has gone through its developmental stage, violating human rights, laws, etc., and then insists that less developed countries fall in line in months rather than many years, just as they insist on democracy for those poor countries that don't have it (provided those countries have oil in sufficient quantities), when they themselves are one of the less democratic countries on the planet.

I agree that Thailand has adopted some of the humanitarian laws of more developed countries, but it's a pity about their justice system!! They don't seem to have come to grips with that yet, and that tells me that they pay little more than lip service to the laws they've 'adopted', so in that regard, they are not as developed as you contend. I understand that they have also adopted laws on trafficking endangered species of animals/animal parts, but that goes on openly in Chatuchak under the noses of the authorities!!

I also lose interest when a poster lacks the most basic of English skills, such as inappropriate use/omission of the apostrophe.

Actually, a lot of Nike stuff is made right here in air conditioning.

[JLCrab]

The Thai company primarily supplies the private label market meaning that their juice is eventually sold under the label of the retailer. That is how the market works today.

Nobody at this point has even determined that the allegations supplied by Finnwatch and Mr. Hall are true. They just interviewed an undisclosed number of employees who had complaints.

[Thai at Heart]

The Thai company primarily supplies the private label market meaning that their juice is eventually sold under the label of the retailer. That is how the market works today.

Nobody at this point has even determined that the allegations supplied by Finnwatch and Mr. Hall are true. They just interviewed an undisclosed number of employees who had complaints.

All possible. Suing the reporter isn't the correct way to solve the issue though. Let's hope he didn't make anything up, and this stupid case disappears. Edited March 9, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[F4UCorsair]

Thai at Heart said, "Actually, a lot of Nike stuff is made right here in air conditioning.".

Nike shoes are made in several different countries. They are made in Indonesia, China, and Vietnam. They are not made in the United States. You can find more information here:http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/nike/faq.html

(Global Exchange is an international human rights organization dedicated to promoting social, economic and environmental justice around the world)

Quotes from that link, but I recommend reading it in its entirety.

Where does Nike produce its shoes?

"During the 1970's, most Nike shoes were made in South Korea and Taiwan. When workers there gained new freedom to organize and wages began to rise, Nike looked for "greener pastures." It found them in Indonesia, China, and most recently Vietnam--countries where protective labor laws are poorly enforced and cheap labor is abundant. Also in China and Vietnam, the law prohibits workers from forming independent trade unions. This was also true in Indonesia until 1998, when dictator General Suharto was overthrown. These three countries continue to be the major places where Nike shoes are made.

By 1997, Nike was shamed into telling its Indonesian contractors to stop asking for exemptions to the minimum wage and to stop paying apprentice wages. But the company still does not require its contractors to pay workers a living wage. In April 1999 when the Indonesian government announced that it was increasing the minimum wage to 231,000 rupiah/month ($26US), Nike for the first time announced that it would raise wages for its Indonesian factory workers higher than the legally required minimum,. Their new wage was a minimum cash wage of 265,000 ($30US) and a bonus package that adds up to 332,000 ($37.50US).

While this is certainly a step forward, the wages are still a far cry from a living wage. An Indonesian wage study released by Global Exchange shows that 332,000 rupiah/month ($37.50US) is needed to cover the basic needs of one person. A living wage, which is a wage that helps cover the needs of a family, not just one worker, would be twice this figure, or 664,000 rupiah/month ($75US).

Moreover, Vietnamese and Chinese workers still get poverty wages. In all three countries, $4 a day would be considered a decent wage. Nike, a company with $8.7 billion in revenue in 1998 that sells its shoes for $150, can well afford to pay its workers such a meager sum."

Another link http://www.ehow.com/about_5485125_nike-sweatshops.html

From that site

While these were perceived as positive efforts on Nike's part, the human rights campaign against the company have not ended. According to the Educating for Justice group, between 50 and 100 percent of Nike factories require more working hours than those permitted by the Code of Conduct. In 25 to 50 percent of factories, workers are required to work 7 days a week, and in the same percentage of factories, workers are still paid less than the local minimum wage.

So much for the insistence that manufacturing countries meet basic/any standards of human rights!!!

dcutman, I rest my case.

Edited March 9, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[Thai at Heart]

Thai at Heart said, "Actually, a lot of Nike stuff is made right here in air conditioning.".

Nike shoes are made in several different countries. They are made in Indonesia, China, and Vietnam. They are not made in the United States. You can find more information here:http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/nike/faq.html

There is a lot more to Nike than just shoes. Many of their garments and that of many more sport brands are made here. You think all those shirts in the market are completely fake. They are overruns and seconds.

[JLCrab]

The Thai company primarily supplies the private label market meaning that their juice is eventually sold under the label of the retailer. That is how the market works today.

Nobody at this point has even determined that the allegations supplied by Finnwatch and Mr. Hall are true. They just interviewed an undisclosed number of employees who had complaints.

All possible. Suing the reporter isn't the correct way to solve the issue though. Let's hope he didn't make anything up, and this stupid case disappears.

I wouldn't say that he made it up. The press release by Finnwatch itself said that they interviewed employees over a period of several months and that about 700 of the 800 employees are migrants. They do not disclose just how many individual employees were interviewed.

What if it was 3?

[Thai at Heart]

The Thai company primarily supplies the private label market meaning that their juice is eventually sold under the label of the retailer. That is how the market works today.

Nobody at this point has even determined that the allegations supplied by Finnwatch and Mr. Hall are true. They just interviewed an undisclosed number of employees who had complaints.

All possible. Suing the reporter isn't the correct way to solve the issue though. Let's hope he didn't make anything up, and this stupid case disappears.

I wouldn't say that he made it up. The press release by Finnwatch itself said that they interviewed employees over a period of several months and that about 700 of the 800 employees are migrants. They do not disclose just how many individual employees were interviewed.

What if it was 3?

If it's one, that's enough. Problem for him would be if it's all untrue. I doubt it, but it could happen.

At the end of the day, the customer can dictate what they want. If the company can prove they have done nothing wrong to their clients, they have nothing to worry about. What odds, the company is 100 percent compliant? Welcome to international business.

[JLCrab]

If someone has a grudge, one can find one or a few employees that will say that the sun rises in the west. It can be very hard to disprove a negative or that something didn't happen as in the old saw "When did you stop beating your wife?"

And, thank you, I spent many years in international business and have no desire to return.

[kujala]

"They just interviewed an undisclosed number of employees who had complaints."

Well, they have released the number of workers interviewed even if in some press reports the number is missing. This information is widely known (at least in Finnish newspapers). I already answered this before, you can find the information here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iltalehti.fi%2Fuutiset%2F2013012216584201_uu.shtml

If you don't want to click and wait, here is the whole news (machine translation):

Thai Natural Fruit Juice Co. factory. Ltd. was caught for serious illegalities FinnWatch report.

Photo: Pineapple factory workers are virtually imprisoned in the factory.

Finnish popular with pineapple juice produced by forced labor, non-governmental organization claims FinnWatch.

Among other things, the Pirkka, Rainbow and Eldorado products used in
pineapple juice concentrate prepared Thai Natural Fruit Co.. LTD. The factory is located in Prachuap Khiri Khan province, which has a long common border with the neighboring country of Myanmar.

The field study was conducted by Finn Watch to Thai Mahidol University migration expert Andy Hall in November 2011. He and his assistants interviewed on the spot 12 factory workers. They were all Myanmar migrant workers.

Employees said that the factory management has confiscated migrant workers' passports and work permits. Employees are virtually imprisoned in the factory, because they can not leave the country or to look for a new job.

- Overtime is up to 5-10 hours a day. According to the employees, it is common that the factory will be
weeping and fainted include fatigue, FinnWatch Executive Director Sonja Vartiala says.

Of the workers of the factory is very hot because the air conditioning will not. Hottest of the rooms where the pineapple to a boil. The plant has only two drink machines and too few toilets.

The plant employs about 800 people, including about 700 of Myanmar. Workers and NGOs estimated that about 200 of them are in the country without papers, as illegal migrants. Among the Finn Watch, also minors.

Workers are paid 200-230 baht, or about 5 to 5.7 euros for a day of work. The local minimum wage of 240 baht a day. Salary subject to a variety of charges, for example still working clothes and a work permit.

FinnWatch the plant management has refused, despite several contacts
with any kind of cooperation with investigators or FinnWatch with.

Web page, the Natural Fruit Co.. Ltd. is advertising to produce "high-quality products of laws, regulations and international standards."

[JLCrab]

What I said was that in Finnwatch's OWN press release the number of employees interviewed was not mentioned.

So according to Google translate it was 12 workers whose identities have been shielded and maybe for good reason. It will be someone else's decision including the big customers of Natural Fruit in EU and most likely the courts in Thailand to decide whether the claims made by Finnwatch are based upon a representative sample out of the 700 migrant workers employed at the facility as reported by Finnwatch.

Edited March 9, 2013 by JLCrab

[getoverit69]

Interesting....most of all the large manufacturing companies and all th ones that supply our goodies such in the West at low prices, all use counrtries where labour is cheap and conditons low.....hope everyone does not mind when the price of our goodies go up. ....there is some evidence of child labour but on the whole not huge and when our counrties dveeloped into modern nations we all used child labour...yes the UK did and USA....they built their nations off the back of cheap and slave labour.....people really shoudl read their history books

[JLCrab]

Fine. You can read your history books.

I'd like to be in the courtroom when the judge asks Mr. Hall how did he determine that there were 'serious violations of basic human and labour rights' at the Natural fruit Company and he (or his lawyers in his absentia) reply:

We interviewed 12 of their 700 migrant workers.

[kujala]

Finnish newspaper Apu interviewed Andy Hall and here is what he had to say about the co-operation between his team and the officials:

During the investigation we tried several times to contact the factory management, the representatives and the authorities of the Thai government, but not a single meeting was granted and no answers were given, Andy Hall commented.

Source: http://www.apu.fi/tag/finnwatch

Using child labour must be so common in Thailand that everybody sort of accepts it. Just outside my hotel there is a 14-year old Burmese girl working in a restaurant 7 days a week, about 12 hours a day. As far as I have understood 15 is the legal age limit, isn't it? I guess if I went to talk with police, nobody would take me seriously?

In Samut Sakhon the governor has at least vowed to tackle the underage problem:

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/news/11237.html

My understanding is that In Western courts the number of employees would be irrelevant, even 1 credible would be enough, if defender is able to prove it. About Thailand I don't know, I don't even know what the lawsuit is about and does it matter, if the allegations are true or not. It's Thailand. :-O

Edited March 9, 2013 by kujala

[Thai at Heart]

Fine. You can read your history books.

I'd like to be in the courtroom when the judge asks Mr. Hall how did he determine that there were 'serious violations of basic human and labour rights' at the Natural fruit Company and he (or his lawyers in his absentia) reply:

We interviewed 12 of their 700 migrant workers.

Indeed, this should have been handled by insisting that in order to supply, the company must submit to an audit, and give the reporting company access.

No access, no supply.

[JLCrab]

And just how is it you know that the company has not already been audited by its large European customers and that Mr. Hall was just able to round up a few (12) malcontents?

[Thai at Heart]

And just how is it you know that the company has not already been audited by its large European customers and that Mr. Hall was just able to round up a few (12) malcontents?

Maybe true. It seems that for some reason, the Finnish govt wanted another independent report.

Had it in my previous employ. We had to comply with an independently managed social responsibility program that all suppliers had to comply with, industry wide.

We were an mnc with global reach so all operations were audited every year. If you failed, ALL global buyers would boycott that operation.

Became very serious very fast when they found a kid spraying pesticide in China.

[getoverit69]

No child should be forced into labour but unless the West is going to get into more debt and lend money they do not have to prop up poor people all across the world not sure how they can fix it. On the whole I have always found Thailand to be very family conscious and love children..but alas there are a few bad eggs as in any society....no where is perfect sadly...but hopefully over time things improve

Edited March 9, 2013 by getoverit69

[JLCrab]

This conversation has gone way beyond the available information. There is no way to know just how and on what basis those 12 employees were made available to the Finnwatch people and that any of them were credible. There was no reason the Company should have been compelled to cooperate with the Finnwatch people if they had already submitted to purchaser audits on their facilities and labor practices and no violations had previously been reported to local authorities.

And the way the libel and defamation laws are construed in Thailand, the fact that they interviewed such a limited sample of the employees is not favorable to Mr. Hall and his associates.

[kujala]

FinnWatch is a completely independent organization and nobody asked them to do this research, it was their own decision.

As for the auditing systems, the companies making canned tuna are part of BSCI or other auditing systems and STILL FinnWatch found some problems in their factories (pages 5 - 9 in this report: http://www.finnwatch.org/images/cheap%20has%20a%20high%20price_exec%20summary_final.pdf )

Now what this in general means is

a. Auditing systems don't mean a lot (at least European auditing systems, or is BSCI worldwide?)

b. FinnWatch has done a poor research

c. The truth is somewhere between a and b and maybe the main problem is not a or b, it is the cultural differencies... ;-)

[JLCrab]

For all I know the Thai Natural Fruit Company may be the worst abuser of labor rights in Thailand and that all their customers in the EU should boycott their products forthwith.

But the topic here is about libel and defamation charges and to say that such allegations were made against the company based upon interviewing 12 of their 700 migrant workers and no information on who are those 12 interviewees or how they were selected would be made available does not bode well for Mr Hall and Finnwatch in a Thai court of law.

Edited March 9, 2013 by JLCrab

[F4UCorsair]

Interesting....most of all the large manufacturing companies and all th ones that supply our goodies such in the West at low prices, all use counrtries where labour is cheap and conditons low.....hope everyone does not mind when the price of our goodies go up. ....there is some evidence of child labour but on the whole not huge and when our counrties dveeloped into modern nations we all used child labour...yes the UK did and USA....they built their nations off the back of cheap and slave labour.....people really shoudl read their history books

Thank you getoverit. I don't believe that we developed nations have the right to dictate to others how they produce goods. We can attempt education, and over time they will improve, and product prices will rise as a consequence. Currently a blind eye is turned, and lip service is paid, because consumers demand goods at the lowest prices.

[khaowong1]

Interesting....most of all the large manufacturing companies and all th ones that supply our goodies such in the West at low prices, all use counrtries where labour is cheap and conditons low.....hope everyone does not mind when the price of our goodies go up. ....there is some evidence of child labour but on the whole not huge and when our counrties dveeloped into modern nations we all used child labour...yes the UK did and USA....they built their nations off the back of cheap and slave labour.....people really shoudl read their history books

Thank you getoverit. I don't believe that we developed nations have the right to dictate to others how they produce goods. We can attempt education, and over time they will improve, and product prices will rise as a consequence. Currently a blind eye is turned, and lip service is paid, because consumers demand goods at the lowest prices.

I understand where both of you are coming from.. But let me ask this... Is it morally right to turn a blind eye, is it morally right to say, well, we built our nations off the back of cheap and slave labour. Have we got so callous in our souls that when someone stands up and says; this isn't right, look at what they are doing, we jump all over them and tell them to hold their tongue and be quiet because everyone does it? I hope not, but it looks like that's the way the world now is. And I for one am not happy about it.

[JLCrab]

If someone wants to stand up and say this isn't right, look at what they are doing, he/she or they better be in a position to prove such allegations as per Section 330 of the Thai Penal Code on defamation. Having non-corroborated statements based upon interviewing 12 out of the 700 migrant employees at the company in question is not PROOF of anything.

This is the link to the ALDI corporate responsibility statement English language version. See in particular Page 3 regarding Suppliers:

http://www.aldi.us/us/media/company/company/ALDI_Corporate_Responsibility_Policy.pdf

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[F4UCorsair]

Interesting....most of all the large manufacturing companies and all th ones that supply our goodies such in the West at low prices, all use counrtries where labour is cheap and conditons low.....hope everyone does not mind when the price of our goodies go up. ....there is some evidence of child labour but on the whole not huge and when our counrties dveeloped into modern nations we all used child labour...yes the UK did and USA....they built their nations off the back of cheap and slave labour.....people really shoudl read their history books

Thank you getoverit. I don't believe that we developed nations have the right to dictate to others how they produce goods. We can attempt education, and over time they will improve, and product prices will rise as a consequence. Currently a blind eye is turned, and lip service is paid, because consumers demand goods at the lowest prices.

I understand where both of you are coming from.. But let me ask this... Is it morally right to turn a blind eye, is it morally right to say, well, we built our nations off the back of cheap and slave labour. Have we got so callous in our souls that when someone stands up and says; this isn't right, look at what they are doing, we jump all over them and tell them to hold their tongue and be quiet because everyone does it? I hope not, but it looks like that's the way the world now is. And I for one am not happy about it.

Well of course it's not morally 'right', but it's reality.

A couple of years ago, film was shown on Australian TV of cattle, exported to Indonesia by Australia, being slaughtered in Indonesia in less than humane conditions. The live export trade was stopped by a stupid government, and the reputation of Australia as a reliable trading partner was tarnished, as well as tens of millions of $$ lost by meat growers. It was inevitable that it would restart, and probably under unaltered conditions. I don't agree with less than humane conditions, but humans are still the most humane killers on the planet. Have you ever seen film of lions killing an elephant, or any huge game, keeping it alive for a couple of days whilst they feast on it until the poor animal finally dies of loss of blood and shock. Telling another country how to run their internal affairs is like demanding that the new owner of a car you sold must only use 95 fuel, or a particular brand of oil. It makes you feel good, but throws a lot of people out of work, making them unable to support themselves or family.

The way round the problem in Indonesia, and other countries manufacturing for export, is education. Softly, softly, and over time conditions will change, as will prices.

Why do we tolerate Greeks and Muslims, and probably others, slaughtering animals in their back yards, and the streets, during their religious festivals without first being stunned, as required by the abattoir code of practice in Australia (and probably most countries)? Oh, that's in the name of religion, so that's OK. It's not OK and I'd stop it tomorrow if I could, but governments bend to permit it to happen.

It matters not what situation we talk about, it has happened before, and those with the new found morality try to force their wishes on the others. It's arrogant in the extreme, and I'll say it again, consumers demand the lowest price (otherwise everything would be made in our own countries), and that's what drives the manufacturing practices. Governments pay lip service to standards in the interests of the almighty $$, as it has always been, and always will be, regardless of how much we want it to change. To suggest otherwise is delusional.

Edited March 10, 2013 by F4UCorsair