Top Thai Democrats Face Charge Over Donation To Party

[jayboy]

I don't normally do hypotheticals but it is really a stretch to suggest that if PTP politicians were being investigated by the DSI, the usual suspects would not be swarming like horseflies over the subject.</p>

Probably no more of a stretch than it is to suggest that all those here who have taken the "the law is the law, it must be followed" line, would be saying the same thing were it a PTP politician.

But as far as I can see most forum members generally sympathetic to the government aren't saying that.On the contrary most have agreed this is nothing more than a technical charge.

Suggest your read the thread again then.

I can see one member made comments supporting your contention.Are there any others? Perhaps a rather sterile area of inquiry.

The main point surely is that in the application of the law views should be consistent regardless of which party is involved.On this forum this hardly ever happens where the usual suspects are concerned.When the politicians associated with the PTP or its predecessors are concerned the law must take its course however silly the pretext.Where their favoured politicians are accused, that's a political vendetta.The dishonesty and hypocrisy are palpable.But that is perhaps a matter for another discussion.

[OzMick]

I don't normally do hypotheticals but it is really a stretch to suggest that if PTP politicians were being investigated by the DSI, the usual suspects would not be swarming like horseflies over the subject.</p>

Probably no more of a stretch than it is to suggest that all those here who have taken the "the law is the law, it must be followed" line, would be saying the same thing were it a PTP politician.

And of course, don't apply that POV to the events of 2010.

[rixalex]

I don't normally do hypotheticals but it is really a stretch to suggest that if PTP politicians were being investigated by the DSI, the usual suspects would not be swarming like horseflies over the subject.</p>

Probably no more of a stretch than it is to suggest that all those here who have taken the "the law is the law, it must be followed" line, would be saying the same thing were it a PTP politician.

But as far as I can see most forum members generally sympathetic to the government aren't saying that.On the contrary most have agreed this is nothing more than a technical charge.

Suggest your read the thread again then.

I can see one member made comments supporting your contention.Are there any others? Perhaps a rather sterile area of inquiry.

The main point surely is that in the application of the law views should be consistent regardless of which party is involved.On this forum this hardly ever happens where the usual suspects are concerned.When the politicians associated with the PTP or its predecessors are concerned the law must take its course however silly the pretext.Where their favoured politicians are accused, that's a political vendetta.The dishonesty and hypocrisy are palpable.But that is perhaps a matter for another discussion.

There's only one member supporting my contention because he is the only member from that particular group so far to have contributed. If and when more of his ilk enter the fray, i hypothesize, we'll be reading more of those "doesn't matter how trivial it is, the law is the law, it must be obeyed", type sentiments.

Not that i don't agree with those sentiments i hasten to add, but, my point was, i wouldn't expect those people to be expressing those same sentiments were we talking about a PTP politician.

Anyway, the only point i was really making was that the dishonesty and hypocrisy you speak of doesn't seem to me, to be a one-way street.

Edited March 9, 2013 by rixalex

[dcutman]

Bangkok governor-elect Sukhumbhand Paribatra to hear the charge

of breaking the law in the manner of his donation of his salary to the

Democrat Party.

How long will this DSI Democrat witch hunt go on for? If their going to waste recourse's , can they at least find something more exciting, than the Dems donating money to themselves.

How about it will go on until they stop breaking the law??? Or do you want to ignore people breaking the law?

if you would take the red tinted glass off and read my post with it with clear, I was pointing out resources are being wasted when there is much more urgent crimes to address. I am sure the Dems have committed more than a few, as I am quite sure the PTP have as well.

If the "witch hunt" comment upsets you, can you tell me when the last time the DSI has investigated the PTP for anything?

[473geo]

Of course the charge is politically motivated, and of course may just be an oversight regarding a financial irregularity, no need to demonise castigate and hound Sukumband.........unless that is the way some politicians have previously set out their stall.......then I guess it could be said they deserve similar attention.....karma?

[animatic]

Utter absurdity, but this is the lengths at which the DSI is tasked with disrupting the Democratic Party at every possible juncture. If any agency of the government deserves dismantling, it is NOT the Administrative Court,

but IS the Department Of Special Investigations ( Partisan Witch Hunt Division)

Edited March 9, 2013 by animatic

[Melyn]

I wonder how Tarit and his team are getting on with the rice scam. The Dems did all the hard work.

[jayboy]

Utter absurdity, but this is the lengths at which the DSI is tasked with disrupting the Democratic Party at every possible juncture. If any agency of the government deserves dismantling, it is NOT the Administrative Court,

but IS the Department Of Special Investigations ( Partisan Witch Hunt Division)

That's more like it.Aways enjoyable when the usual suspects live up to the stereotype.

[473geo]

I wonder how Tarit and his team are getting on with the rice scam. The Dems did all the hard work.

The democrats subsidised fertiliser via payments to the manufacturers I understand, I believe there are corporates who own subsidiaries involved in this area alleged to have donated to the democrats.....just coincidence I expect....... not sure how the case progressed, I think it was the method of bringing the donation into the accounts rather than the fact there was a donation though......

[OzMick]

I wonder how Tarit and his team are getting on with the rice scam. The Dems did all the hard work.

The democrats subsidised fertiliser via payments to the manufacturers I understand, I believe there are corporates who own subsidiaries involved in this area alleged to have donated to the democrats.....just coincidence I expect....... not sure how the case progressed, I think it was the method of bringing the donation into the accounts rather than the fact there was a donation though......

As in this case, there were allegation regarding the METHOD of donation, and not that the donation itself was corrupt. I would have thought you would have enjoyed a subsidy to farmers that avoided being diverted to millers and middlemen - perhaps not.

[473geo]

I wonder how Tarit and his team are getting on with the rice scam. The Dems did all the hard work.

The democrats subsidised fertiliser via payments to the manufacturers I understand, I believe there are corporates who own subsidiaries involved in this area alleged to have donated to the democrats.....just coincidence I expect....... not sure how the case progressed, I think it was the method of bringing the donation into the accounts rather than the fact there was a donation though......

As in this case, there were allegation regarding the METHOD of donation, and not that the donation itself was corrupt. I would have thought you would have enjoyed a subsidy to farmers that avoided being diverted to millers and middlemen - perhaps not.

A subsidy to the manufacturers to artificially support a price increase to maintain/increase the profit margin on fertiliser.....because the price of the crop could no longer support it......where do you think the real cash benefit of the subsidy went? To buy fertiliser and increase your output only to accept a per kg price that does not justify the outlay is not really beneficial to the farmer.

Edited March 9, 2013 by 473geo

[473geo]

I wonder how Tarit and his team are getting on with the rice scam. The Dems did all the hard work.

The democrats subsidised fertiliser via payments to the manufacturers I understand, I believe there are corporates who own subsidiaries involved in this area alleged to have donated to the democrats.....just coincidence I expect....... not sure how the case progressed, I think it was the method of bringing the donation into the accounts rather than the fact there was a donation though......

As in this case, there were allegation regarding the METHOD of donation, and not that the donation itself was corrupt. I would have thought you would have enjoyed a subsidy to farmers that avoided being diverted to millers and middlemen - perhaps not.

As far as the donation I refer to goes the method was alledgedly to disguise the donation.....why would the democrats wish to do that?........I accept just a possible oversight a financial irregularity.......an apology all round and recompense should be ok.......unless of course there is precedent of a jail term for such oversights?

[rubl]

Bangkok governor-elect Sukhumbhand Paribatra to hear the charge

of breaking the law in the manner of his donation of his salary to the

Democrat Party.

How long will this DSI Democrat witch hunt go on for? If their going to waste recourse's , can they at least find something more exciting, than the Dems donating money to themselves.

I agree this does not seem like a very serious breach of the law, if indeed it is more than a technical breach.I believe it is quite normal for politicians in the West to make donations from their salaries to political parties.Indeed for many years ordinary citizens in the UK were compelled to make compulsory contributions to the Labour Party if their unions had "opted in".In this Thai story there are also some oddities, not least how DSI became aware of these payments given they were privately made between individuals and the Democrat party.Are they tax deductible? In short much less here than meets the eye if the only issue was that the payments were made by deduction of salary rather than by non-transferable cheque.So for any reasonable person this seems like a non event.

But here's the question for those who leap to Sukhumband et al's defence.Would you also apply the same standards to other politicians (incl PTP) if they were being investigated on the same charge, or would the usual suspects argue that ignorance of the law is no excuse and if found guilty the culprits should suffer the full penalty of the law inculding prison and/or a 5 year political ban.Based on past standard of intellectual honesty I think I already know the answer.

No offence, stupid question. Donations via salary deductions are traceble and as such should not be against any law within the normal limitations on amount, tax deduction, etc. That's independent of who does it.

BTW Pheu Thai politicians and actually most politicians independent of party know about tracebility, asset declarations, and honest mistakes

[rubl]

I wonder how Tarit and his team are getting on with the rice scam. The Dems did all the hard work.

The democrats subsidised fertiliser via payments to the manufacturers I understand, I believe there are corporates who own subsidiaries involved in this area alleged to have donated to the democrats.....just coincidence I expect....... not sure how the case progressed, I think it was the method of bringing the donation into the accounts rather than the fact there was a donation though......

As in this case, there were allegation regarding the METHOD of donation, and not that the donation itself was corrupt. I would have thought you would have enjoyed a subsidy to farmers that avoided being diverted to millers and middlemen - perhaps not.

As far as the donation I refer to goes the method was alledgedly to disguise the donation.....why would the democrats wish to do that?........I accept just a possible oversight a financial irregularity.......an apology all round and recompense should be ok.......unless of course there is precedent of a jail term for such oversights?

As you allege (a lot) it would be meaningless speculation to wonder about 'why would they do that'. IMHO of course

[animatic]

Utter absurdity, but this is the lengths at which the DSI is tasked with disrupting the Democratic Party at every possible juncture. If any agency of the government deserves dismantling, it is NOT the Administrative Court,

but IS the Department Of Special Investigations ( Partisan Witch Hunt Division)

That's more like it.Aways enjoyable when the usual suspects live up to the stereotype.

Just look in your own mirror, that will tell enough of the story, you remain true to typecasting indeed.

Edited March 9, 2013 by animatic

[473geo]

As you allege (a lot) it would be meaningless speculation to wonder about 'why would they do that'. IMHO of course

Don't read too much into my prefered protective legal jargon Rubl.......unless that is your best shot I guess....then feel free....

[rubl]

As you allege (a lot) it would be meaningless speculation to wonder about 'why would they do that'. IMHO of course

Don't read too much into my prefered protective legal jargon Rubl.......unless that is your best shot I guess....then feel free....

Don't worry, old chap. Indeed I do not read too much into it, allegedly that is

Edited March 9, 2013 by rubl

[473geo]

I leave you with this comment supplied by one of the judges appointed by the junta responsible for the decision to acquit the democrats but disband Thai Rak Thai..."The Thai Rak Thai party did not respect the rule of law," one of the judges said. "Therefore the court orders to dissolve the Thai Rak Thai party.".............so there you have it guys will the constitutional court exonerate the democrats yet again?.............in order to maintain the 'checks and balances' of course!!!........is there a "broke the law but we see them as good chaps so they can walk free" in the case of the democrats?

[chainarong]

The shincorp government will continue to bully , hassle, be-little, every inch of the way, it's up to the opposition to do like wise , the ruling party is only as good as the opposition will allow, Abhisit and the democrats need to muck rake as much fertilizer on this mob of piss witts as possible, i can't imagine Abhisit giving orders to shoot anybody., i can see some on the other side doing so however.

[Thai at Heart]

Are these donations tax deductible?

[kirk0233]

Bangkok governor-elect Sukhumbhand Paribatra to hear the charge

of breaking the law in the manner of his donation of his salary to the

Democrat Party.

How long will this DSI Democrat witch hunt go on for? If their going to waste recourse's , can they at least find something more exciting, than the Dems donating money to themselves.

How about it will go on until they stop breaking the law??? Or do you want to ignore people breaking the law?

well there's breaking the law and then there's breaking the law - did these people attempt to cheat defraud or have any other unlawful activity apart from save paper - a court would laugh at this and maybe even bring charges against the DSI for wasting their time - it's total nonesense

I agree, its a nonsense, but its a law so you either choose to uphold it or ignore it.

Since a large measure of Thai laws are ignored, why is this one upheld and why against only Democrats?

[GentlemanJim]

I can only imagine that the law was written before the internet and electronic banking, hence the requirement for a non transferrable cheque, presumably so nobody else could pocket the cheque for themselves. The transfers that have been made are clearly transparent and have a full audit trail and as nothing has been mentioned it would transpire that the money arrived at it's intended location...the Dem political party. I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that there are PTP politicians that have transferred money to their party in exactly the same way, and if they were hounded over this issue my conclusion would be the same...utterly pathetic.

[Mosha]

So if the Dems are getting money from their supporters, eg private sector. Why don't the PTP go cap in hand to theirs? "Can we have our 300 Baht back please?"

[chrisrazz]

Having witnessed a prime minister removed from office for the minor infraction of appearing on a Television cooking show, I realise anything is possible in Thailand. All this political posturing with the law shows that the law is basically flawed. Of course rules are needed, they need to be clear and fairly applied to all regardless of politics. Ultimately, because of the scale of corruption, the stakes are very high in terms of the benefits of political ascendancy. Unfortunately, none of this seems to have anything to do with policy or improving the standard of living of the nation. Whoever achieves government think only of themselves, their cronies, those they owe polically, those they owe favours and finally the country, in that order. Realistically, the Thai people have become so conditioned to this that they expect nothing else.

[GentlemanJim]

There will probably be a law somewhere from 1902 that says MP's must use two buffalo to pull their carriages to the house of Parliament. I am sure some ambitious Dem could get everyone that drives a car there disbanded for 5 years and 2 years in jail.

[scorecard]

Having witnessed a prime minister removed from office for the minor infraction of appearing on a Television cooking show, I realise anything is possible in Thailand. All this political posturing with the law shows that the law is basically flawed. Of course rules are needed, they need to be clear and fairly applied to all regardless of politics. Ultimately, because of the scale of corruption, the stakes are very high in terms of the benefits of political ascendancy. Unfortunately, none of this seems to have anything to do with policy or improving the standard of living of the nation. Whoever achieves government think only of themselves, their cronies, those they owe polically, those they owe favours and finally the country, in that order. Realistically, the Thai people have become so conditioned to this that they expect nothing else.

Well yes and no.

I agree fully on your points after your words about the cooking show.

But I disagree totally on your words... "a prime minister removed from office for the minor infraction of appearing on a Television cooking show..."

It wasn't like that at all. The law states (and it's the same in most countries in the world) that the prime minister must devote his/her total time and energies to the role / expectations / outputs of PM / cannot have a second job. A very valid and appropriate law.

Samak didn't just 'appear on a cooking show', he:

- Said he wasn't paid for the show, but he was eventually caught out and it was proven that he was paid.

- Took many hours each week to shop for the ingredients

- Took many hours each week in both rehearals and in actually taping the show.

- He was advised that he was breaking the law, etc., (and this was made very public)

- His response basically, 'I don't care, I do what I want'

- Not the point at all, but many Thais will tell you, the dishes he prepared on the show are very basic every day Thai foods.

He should have been spending all of this time on the affairs of state.

Put it another way, would US, UK, German, Japanese, Australian, Chinese, Singaporean etc etc., citizens accept a scenario whereby the president / pm / chancellor etc was spending say 30+ hours per week making a cooking show / making a show about gardening / making a show about making hot rod cars, etc?

Totally NO!

[scorecard]

I can only imagine that the law was written before the internet and electronic banking, hence the requirement for a non transferrable cheque, presumably so nobody else could pocket the cheque for themselves. The transfers that have been made are clearly transparent and have a full audit trail and as nothing has been mentioned it would transpire that the money arrived at it's intended location...the Dem political party. I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that there are PTP politicians that have transferred money to their party in exactly the same way, and if they were hounded over this issue my conclusion would be the same...utterly pathetic.

Actually It disappoints me that the dems aren't more proactive to get things (laws and regulations) which are / have become ambiguous / have become obsolete in terms of process because of new technology adjusted.

Please dems take the lead, you have many party members who are lawyers, and stop allowing yourselves to fall into silly potholes.

Edited March 9, 2013 by scorecard

[animatic]

Having witnessed a prime minister removed from office for the minor infraction of appearing on a Television cooking show, I realise anything is possible in Thailand. All this political posturing with the law shows that the law is basically flawed. Of course rules are needed, they need to be clear and fairly applied to all regardless of politics. Ultimately, because of the scale of corruption, the stakes are very high in terms of the benefits of political ascendancy. Unfortunately, none of this seems to have anything to do with policy or improving the standard of living of the nation. Whoever achieves government think only of themselves, their cronies, those they owe polically, those they owe favours and finally the country, in that order. Realistically, the Thai people have become so conditioned to this that they expect nothing else.

Again, and yet again this needs to be repeated, before BS becomes truth and legend...

.

Samak was removed for accepting remuneration for the cooking show.

Taking a FEE, even if it is to cover your driver expenses is still a conflict of interest,

by getting a payment from a media company that is regulated by the government.

Samak ALSO, as was testified, refused the advice of his own lawyers,

and ALSO lied under oath about the remuneration, and was caught in that lie.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with what he did on the show or it's subject,

but a clear cut public breaking of the anti-corruption statues and lying about it.

The main reason Samak got removed from the job and not reinstated the next day?

Arrogance.

Too arrogant to take his lawyers advice and refuse the 5,000 baht a show.

Too arrogant to keep Thaksin his liege lord happy.

Thaksin could have made him PM the very next day,

but PICKED the more compliant Somchai his bro in law.

Edited March 9, 2013 by animatic

[khunken]

Isn't the DSI supposed to be an agency that takes on cases that are too big or complicated for the ordinary police to handle?

This is a gross waste of their time & resources. It is so patently obvious (but not, apparently to PTP acolytes) that this is another prong in the PTP-driven witch hunt against the opposition. I shudder to think what will happen to this country if (when?) the Thaksin machine grabs the reins of any of the other so far independent agencies.

[473geo]

Isn't the DSI supposed to be an agency that takes on cases that are too big or complicated for the ordinary police to handle?

This is a gross waste of their time & resources. It is so patently obvious (but not, apparently to PTP acolytes) that this is another prong in the PTP-driven witch hunt against the opposition. I shudder to think what will happen to this country if (when?) the Thaksin machine grabs the reins of any of the other so far independent agencies.

Isn't this about on a par with Democrats obsession over Thaksin using a Thai or Montenegran passport? There appeared to be plenty of support for that particular fiasco on the forum...