Thai Railways Set Eyes On Dual Track System

[OzMick]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

The double tracking work that I have observed also included re-laying the original track using concrete sleepers.

[worgeordie]

There will be lots more accidents at unmanned rail crossings, as the Thais will

only look one way, if at all, Yes I can beat it !!

regards Worgeordie

[rubl]

As member Lakegeneve posted the SRT already has a plan to upgrade existing lines to dual rail track. As far as I know costs have been budgetted although maybe not secured for the full period.

The part of the 2.2 trillion THB budget which deals with new tracks is mainly related to 800++ billion in high speed rail. That's separate from the dual tracking upgrade.

With all the confusing and conflicting announcements by various government and cabinet people I might be wrong though :-)

[Lakegeneve]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

Listen up NM, double tracking of the current narrow gauge network has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the proposed HSR lines!

HSR lines will be standard gauge electric with entirely new lines separate from the rest current network. They will share the same right of way and stations in some areas but you seem very confused about the numerous news articles which have made this simple fact perfectly clear.

[khunken]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

[Globeman]

"SRT Governor Prapas Chongsa-nguan said the government is issuing a bill to seek Bt2 trillion in loans for the project..."

Judas Priest. This is the same "stimulus" borrowed spending that failed in the US and failed in China.

Simple question: If borrowing and spending stimulates, what happens when spending has to stop so that it can be paid back?

Thailand can't pay it back. I hope they can't find lenders, but they probably will. Even Greece finds lenders. Then Thailand will have to keep printing baht to pay it back and the baht will take a serious dump.

Thailand has paid back large amounts before - like the IMF $20bn or so... so it isn't impossible, particularly if it does significantly increase rail traffic in relative synch with ASEAN coming into full flower in 2015. What are you basing your assumptions on? The problem with the SRT is that they keep cheating by claiming far higher fuel consumption than is actually the case and pocket the difference... i believe it requires careful manipulation of actual fuel purchases that are then sold on under the table. And of course the govt has to stop throwing money into the rice subsidy sinkhole, or they won;t be able to pay anyone else anything.

[Globeman]

Being a Australian train driver for over 25 years, and eyeballing a little of the Thai country rail system they need a lot more than the BT2trilion to bring it up to world standards, if building double lines they have to go bidirectional (speeds up rail movments), and build them all over the country, also a high tech train control, they need large frieght yards close to sea ports, small yards at the producers end, they also need a lot more rolling stock (engines and wagons), this is just a start.

I won't use the rail in Thailand yet.

there are depots under construction at seaports, but probably not enough... i won't take the train anymore - it is so noisy now, which I assume to be poor maintenance of the tracks - would that be the case?

[dcutman]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

Yeh, I'd love to see any Thai govt project (of any size or scope) anywhere, close to on-time, within budget, and does not have a corruption scandal attached to it. Past, present or future.

Is that possible?

[Pimay1]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

Yeh, I'd love to see any Thai govt project (of any size or scope) anywhere, close to on-time, within budget, and does not have a corruption scandal attached to it. Past, present or future.

Is that possible?

These guys do not use Microsoft project plan which sets expectations and time lines. It's kinda like off the cuff thing that changes daily depending on how many pigs are feeding at the trough.

[dcutman]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

Yeh, I'd love to see any Thai govt project (of any size or scope) anywhere, close to on-time, within budget, and does not have a corruption scandal attached to it. Past, present or future.

Is that possible?

These guys do not use Microsoft project plan which sets expectations and time lines. It's kinda like off the cuff thing that changes daily depending on how many pigs are feeding at the trough.

Your last 6 words said it all, my friend.

[Mosha]

Suppose Thailand will have to wait for the Chinese to build it -like the Japanese built the Burma railway....

I think you'll find the Japanese didn't lift a finger, in manual labour

[OzMick]

"SRT Governor Prapas Chongsa-nguan said the government is issuing a bill to seek Bt2 trillion in loans for the project..."

Judas Priest. This is the same "stimulus" borrowed spending that failed in the US and failed in China.

Simple question: If borrowing and spending stimulates, what happens when spending has to stop so that it can be paid back?

Thailand can't pay it back. I hope they can't find lenders, but they probably will. Even Greece finds lenders. Then Thailand will have to keep printing baht to pay it back and the baht will take a serious dump.

Thailand has paid back large amounts before - like the IMF $20bn or so... so it isn't impossible, particularly if it does significantly increase rail traffic in relative synch with ASEAN coming into full flower in 2015. What are you basing your assumptions on? The problem with the SRT is that they keep cheating by claiming far higher fuel consumption than is actually the case and pocket the difference... i believe it requires careful manipulation of actual fuel purchases that are then sold on under the table. And of course the govt has to stop throwing money into the rice subsidy sinkhole, or they won;t be able to pay anyone else anything.

$20 billion? I have seen figures of 12 and 13 billion, which would equate to B400 billion at most at today's exchange rates. So when PTP plan to borrow 5.5 times that amount, and with their propensity to corrupt and populist schemes, I am more than a little concerned. It will take more than an increase in rail traffic to recoup.

[akampa]

Thailand has paid back large amounts before - like the IMF $20bn or so... so it isn't impossible, particularly if it does significantly increase rail traffic in relative synch with ASEAN coming into full flower in 2015. What are you basing your assumptions on? The problem with the SRT is that they keep cheating by claiming far higher fuel consumption than is actually the case and pocket the difference... i believe it requires careful manipulation of actual fuel purchases that are then sold on under the table. And of course the govt has to stop throwing money into the rice subsidy sinkhole, or they won;t be able to pay anyone else anything.

hold on everyone not only are they planing on spending 2 trillion for railways but there is the 2 trillion going towards tourism that is 134 billion dollars

that is serious money.

the 20 billion they paid back to the IMF was chump change,and how do they plan to pay it back and dont forget the interest

[bigbamboo]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

I'd love to see a polution free world where everyone has enough to eat.

I wonder which of us will get our wish first?

[I Like Thai]

The plan for the rail project has been posted on youtube

[Pimay1]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

I'd love to see a polution free world where everyone has enough to eat.

I wonder which of us will get our wish first?

My dear old departed daddy (God rest his soul) said to me after I told him I wished I had a car "son wish in one hand and shit in the other one and see which gets full first".

[Globeman]

"SRT Governor Prapas Chongsa-nguan said the government is issuing a bill to seek Bt2 trillion in loans for the project..."

Judas Priest. This is the same "stimulus" borrowed spending that failed in the US and failed in China.

Simple question: If borrowing and spending stimulates, what happens when spending has to stop so that it can be paid back?

Thailand can't pay it back. I hope they can't find lenders, but they probably will. Even Greece finds lenders. Then Thailand will have to keep printing baht to pay it back and the baht will take a serious dump.

Thailand has paid back large amounts before - like the IMF $20bn or so... so it isn't impossible, particularly if it does significantly increase rail traffic in relative synch with ASEAN coming into full flower in 2015. What are you basing your assumptions on? The problem with the SRT is that they keep cheating by claiming far higher fuel consumption than is actually the case and pocket the difference... i believe it requires careful manipulation of actual fuel purchases that are then sold on under the table. And of course the govt has to stop throwing money into the rice subsidy sinkhole, or they won;t be able to pay anyone else anything.

$20 billion? I have seen figures of 12 and 13 billion, which would equate to B400 billion at most at today's exchange rates. So when PTP plan to borrow 5.5 times that amount, and with their propensity to corrupt and populist schemes, I am more than a little concerned. It will take more than an increase in rail traffic to recoup.

There was the direct IMF money right from the beginning and additional pledges from other countries, I believe including Japan - $20bn would be conservative if you add it up... and that was just to get the country out of very deep <deleted>, not an actual development. Thailand is very well placed geographically for increased ASEAN economic activity, and a large rail transport capacity would be pretty useful. Money has always been stolen (though the amounts may be higher in percentage terms than in Chartchai Choonavan's time)... but as much as everyone on TV wants to ridicule Thailand's inability to organise a piss up in a brewery, the country does have a pretty whopping infrastructure, shedloads of factories, port facilities, and they are among the largest car producers in the world now (yes, I know they don't design and engineer them) etc, etc... They have managed to achieve quite a lot in the last half century despite all the graft, the patriarchal system, an tendency to shoddy standards, etc... so it would be a mistake to jump to the conclusion that they couldn't build a double track railway.

[ginjag]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

[cooked]

Why am I worried about who is going to drive these high speed trains? Ex Minibus drivers?

[ginjag]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

To add, I have seen so many different announcements I am tottally confused. 2 days ago on Thai television a transport spokesman said they will use existing tracks, abve poster says new double tracks, another report says to convert to wide gauge, and so on. please give us the actual plan, on the definate intention. Is there one---for sure ratified. ??

[OzMick]

I await the announcement that PTP is adopting a Queen classic as there theme song - I want it all, I want it now.

[OzMick]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

Your terminology is wrong, confusing standard gauge and wide. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge

Again, changing gauge is an immensely complicated and expensive process requiring system shutdown or very detailed planning (not likely here!), and a complete replacement of rolling stock, widening of bridges, tunnels, alteration of many stations. It is not likely to happen IMHO.

[Langsuan Man]

Does anyone really expect SRT to really do anything to improve rail travel here in Thailand ?

That is like expecting CAT or TOT to do something to improve the telephone system . Much easier to just sit around and wait for all that concession money to come rolling in

SRT is more than happy to let the rails go to hell, so long as they are able to obtain outlandish rents from all the property they own

[hellodolly]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

Your terminology is wrong, confusing standard gauge and wide. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge

Again, changing gauge is an immensely complicated and expensive process requiring system shutdown or very detailed planning (not likely here!), and a complete replacement of rolling stock, widening of bridges, tunnels, alteration of many stations. It is not likely to happen IMHO.

Seems to me to be an easily accomplished system. Will take time and money.

If you are going to double track build the new one and use it while you are rebuilding the old one. In effect you are just building a new rail road and upgrading an existing one. I am very sure the Thai engineers and builders are capable to handle the job.

It makes complete sense to me to build one that will meet today's and the futures needs.

If money gets tight they can sell rice.

[Bagwan]

The big ignored problem in this plan is not too addressing the current limitations of using the now narrow gauge track system. Thai past plans talked of upgrading to world standard gauge tracks.

There are limitations that attach to using standard gauge also. The curves of the line have to be of greater radius for starters. Passing through hilly country means detours and the civil engineering costs would soar.

One thing that bothers me about a high speed railway is how often would the line be inspected? In the UK gangers walk the line at regular intervals, often hammering home clips holding the rails that have become loose and not doing the job they were designed to do. Drivers are expected to report all rough running and the lengths of track are examined without delay - allegedly. I don't have a lot of confidence in an army of Somjais doing such tasks religiously and effectively. I have doubts that maintenance budgets would be fireproofed against greedy phu yais.

[jbrain]

I guess tha perpacked lunchbox issue must be cleared then.

Govt Mulls Pre-Packed Lunch Boxes For High Speed Trains; Sees New Market For Upscale Travelers

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/578900-govt-mulls-pre-packed-lunch-boxes-for-high-speed-trains;-sees-new-market-for-upscale-travelers/

So over to the less important issues, the tracks on which the train will ride.

[Bagwan]

"SRT Governor Prapas Chongsa-nguan said the government is issuing a bill to seek Bt2 trillion in loans for the project..."

Judas Priest. This is the same "stimulus" borrowed spending that failed in the US and failed in China.

Simple question: If borrowing and spending stimulates, what happens when spending has to stop so that it can be paid back?

Thailand can't pay it back. I hope they can't find lenders, but they probably will. Even Greece finds lenders. Then Thailand will have to keep printing baht to pay it back and the baht will take a serious dump.

Thailand has paid back large amounts before - like the IMF $20bn or so... so it isn't impossible, particularly if it does significantly increase rail traffic in relative synch with ASEAN coming into full flower in 2015. What are you basing your assumptions on? The problem with the SRT is that they keep cheating by claiming far higher fuel consumption than is actually the case and pocket the difference... i believe it requires careful manipulation of actual fuel purchases that are then sold on under the table. And of course the govt has to stop throwing money into the rice subsidy sinkhole, or they won;t be able to pay anyone else anything.

I was under the impression that Thaksin borrowed the money from Singapore to repay the IMF before the due date. Anybody know for sure?

[OzMick]

"SRT Governor Prapas Chongsa-nguan said the government is issuing a bill to seek Bt2 trillion in loans for the project..."

Judas Priest. This is the same "stimulus" borrowed spending that failed in the US and failed in China.

Simple question: If borrowing and spending stimulates, what happens when spending has to stop so that it can be paid back?

Thailand can't pay it back. I hope they can't find lenders, but they probably will. Even Greece finds lenders. Then Thailand will have to keep printing baht to pay it back and the baht will take a serious dump.

Thailand has paid back large amounts before - like the IMF $20bn or so... so it isn't impossible, particularly if it does significantly increase rail traffic in relative synch with ASEAN coming into full flower in 2015. What are you basing your assumptions on? The problem with the SRT is that they keep cheating by claiming far higher fuel consumption than is actually the case and pocket the difference... i believe it requires careful manipulation of actual fuel purchases that are then sold on under the table. And of course the govt has to stop throwing money into the rice subsidy sinkhole, or they won;t be able to pay anyone else anything.

I was under the impression that Thaksin borrowed the money from Singapore to repay the IMF before the due date. Anybody know for sure?

As I remember it. He went for a higher interest rate (paid by the taxpayer) to escape IMF oversight of his corruption.

[Bagwan]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

Yeh, I'd love to see any Thai govt project (of any size or scope) anywhere, close to on-time, within budget, and does not have a corruption scandal attached to it. Past, present or future.

Is that possible?

These guys do not use Microsoft project plan which sets expectations and time lines. It's kinda like off the cuff thing that changes daily depending on how many pigs are feeding at the trough.

60 years ago the now dead and buried ICT, which later became the backbone of ICL, sold a lot of mainframes because they had a suite of programs caller PERT. (Programme Evaluation and Review Techniques) As events and tasks were completed the program would work out what the critical path to completion was. It worked - unlike so much of the crap that Microsoft churn out.

[Bagwan]

Suppose Thailand will have to wait for the Chinese to build it -like the Japanese built the Burma railway....

I think you'll find the Japanese didn't lift a finger, in manual labour

Any many of the guards were impressed Koreans. The Japanese officers and NCO's didn't treat them too kindly either. You don't put trained front line troops to guarding prisons. Could you imagine the oriental version of Private Schultz in harm's way?