An Isaan Dilema

[kwonitoy]

So I've got a foreign acquantance that lives about 20k or so from me, his wife is from our village so he spends quite a bit of time in our village and visits me as the only other english speaking falang in the area.

We get along quite well, he's what I would call "normal" and he's said the same of me. Anyone living in the sticks for any amount of time will know that there's lots of foreigners that show up that aren't normal.

He' retired, living on what I think is a smallish pension, don't know the numbers and don't care to. Last year he crashed down off a stepladder and broke his hip requiring a hip replacement. The operation ran him about 250,000 baht and was partly covered by some sort of Australian gov. medical assistance, but left him financially strapped. For the last year he's been in and out of hospital, overall health is poor, overweight, having lung problems, kidney problems and last month a heart attack.

The help he got in paying for the hip replacement appears to be a one time thing, now he has to pay for heart surgury on his own and has no insurance and no cash to cover. Heart surgury in KK will run 500-600,000 baht.

His Thai wife has been doing a incrediable job raising money from her side of the family, The part that really bothers me is that his own family in Aus, (2 grown kids) have said they have no money and basically shut the door.

His wife has asked us for help and I've offered an openended loan of 50,000 baht payable back whenever. Other expat friends of his are contributing what they can. His wife however wants 200,000 baht from me with collateral of a land chanote. I've said I can't do this as finance's for myself at tight at the moment, having been in for a hip relacement (and unable to work) myself.

People do look at our house and land/equipment and assume that I'm a "rich guy", but I've built what we have up over the years when working offshore, so I'm asset rich and cash poor at the moment. ( I'm finally back to work next week to start solving that problem)

I hate to see him waiting for heart surgury, but also hate being put in a spot like this

Ken

[lopburi3]

A bad position to be in but believe you may have the option to obtain cash if needed as loan on your assets and if land is not repaid have as investment for later and if paid get your money back? If you intend to return to work this might be a viable option but you need to weigh it to your own possible needs so need to talk over with families and decide.

[IsaanAussie]

Give yourself a shake mate, this is not your problem any more than you wish to make it. The fact that you post speaks volumes for you as a man. But life is tough.

As I see it, his poor guy has very little chance of improving his circumstances in the future, with or without the operation. He could not be expected to repay a loan so his only chance is the charity of friends and relatives.

Thai people seem to get to the point were when the end is near for a loved one, they accept that and await the end. I always wondered why they dont have the big party to raise money for treatment first and settle for a smaller funeral after. In truth after lots of years, their way is more pragmatic as the end comes to us all, they stop fighting we cling on.

In honesty, the best thing he could do is go back to Australia. If he is of pension age, his medical treatment will be free, or at least cheaper than here. He should draw on the system he has access to, that isn't here. If you want to help further, ring the Australian Consul at the Embassy in Bangkok and ask for suggestions.

Again, the simple fact that you are prepared to help a casual acquaintance speaks volumes for you! Good luck to you both.

[kwonitoy]

My wife has already asked his wife about this, the chanote they are offereing to us can be used at the GSB for a loan but only 70,000 baht. They are short of their goal by 200k which is why they are asking us for that amount for the same chanote.

The thing is I don't really care about the chanote as I know the loan would be repaid eventually but can't afford that much at the moment.

As for mortgageing my own property, call me hard hearted but no. All I've built up to date is a legacy for my son.

[MeMock]

I agree with IssanAussie - wouldn't it be better for him to return to Australia for the free health care?

[cooked]

As long as he can travel I think he should go back home or settle for passing away here. I know it's not an easy decision but that's one that I also will have to make sometime.

[villagefarang]

With this guys health problems I do not share your optimism over the loan being repaid. If you don’t have it to give, don’t go into debt to prolong a casual acquaintance’s life by what may not be very long. Your obligation is to your own family. You are just being practical and responsible, not hard hearted in my opinion.

[cardholder]

I agree with IssanAussie - wouldn't it be better for him to return to Australia for the free health care?

i have to agree that this is the most logical - and cost effective option.

They have enough for the air fare.

[kwonitoy]

I agree that going back to Oz would be the best option. I don't think its possible for him to fly commercially right now

He's flat on his back, on oxygen, at home. He can't have a heart operation right now as his kidney problem is too severe. The thing is he should have gone back sometime in the last year, his health has been going downhill on a varity of fronts

It's sad to see as he's a good guy

[IsaanAussie]

Now we are down to the point. The finances would not be my main concern, that is over. You feel for this guy as a friend that is suffering. Your moral question is do you stay or do you resume work OS? Hate to be a hard nose but he has no choice, he isn't going anywhere. You have that choice, see it through or say your goodbyes. That decision must be based on your own position and the consequences of a delay in taking the current job offer. But know this, he has a wife that is working hard for him. His fate is sealed. He will not die alone.

The position with his kids is irrelevant, they are not here by the bedside. Think about his wife and her pending loss and potential subsequent debt position. They will both out live him.

[manxninja]

I would loan the 200,000 baht if i had a decent offshore job like yourself.

Get the deeds of some land worth that amount of money and put them in your wifes name if they dont want to do this walk away.

If i was in a position to help out a decent fella who i trust or let him die then i would do it, on the condition that should the situation arire in the future i would not be willing to help out. This being a one off next time get things in place to sort it himself.

Your a long time dead help the man , but make sure you dont end up out of pocket doing it.

[isanbirder]

From all OP says, the poor man is on his way out anyway. All the sympathy we can give will not make him live a day longer. All credit to you, OP, for trying to help, though.

He has two options, to get back to Australia (but that sounds impossible given his present condition), or accept that his time has come. This is how a Thai villager would take it; this is how our great-grandparents would have taken it.

And God bless him!

[patongphil]

I would loan the 200,000 baht if i had a decent offshore job like yourself.

Get the deeds of some land worth that amount of money and put them in your wifes name if they dont want to do this walk away.

If i was in a position to help out a decent fella who i trust or let him die then i would do it, on the condition that should the situation arire in the future i would not be willing to help out. This being a one off next time get things in place to sort it himself.

Your a long time dead help the man , but make sure you dont end up out of pocket doing it.

My thoughts exactly. 200,000 baht is only a weeks wages offshore - I would not hesitate.

[kwonitoy]

Manx & Patong

In normal times I wouldn't have hesitated the loan for 200k

But as I stated in the OP, I've been laid up with a hip replacement myself and high paying offshore jobs pay zero when your're on the beach.

I also took the previous year off from work when my wife was pregnant, untill my son was born and for the first six months of his life. This was a personnal choice for me and the best thing I did, but it did run down the bank account.

BUT it's not about my own lifestlye and finances here

I guess what frustrates me the most is that I've taken care of the money for myself and my family, I've paid for insurance every year out of my own pocket just in case, because shit does happen and this Aus friend is one of three that has recently fallen on bad times here around where I live. The other two with health problems did go home but probably won't be coming back to Thailand, and each one of them did try to borrow considerable sums off of me.

[sirchai]

So sad the story might be, so easy is the solution. Your friend's kidneys aren't working, guess because of the medication. Nobody really knows if he's taking the right medicine.( Regarding side effects, etc..)

I'd suggest to do all to get him stable to be able to fly back to his country. Even if you could pay for all medical expenses, you'd never know when his last day will come. Could be very soon, considering his health issues.

Even a "successful" heart op doesn't mean that he'll be okay afterwards, as other problems might occur.

There must be a way to have medical assistance flying him back, supported by your government.

I went through all that with two older men, who had no insurance in LOS. Your post might be helpful that some "expats" without any coverage will buy an insurance policy that suits them.

Can't you just talk to his doctors, if there's way to get him back to his country for further treatment? Most airplanes do have oxygen on board.

( sarcasm)

Here's my own personal decision. I won't hang on machines that keep me alive, should I get serious health problems here. Made my last will and I made it clear in three languages.

I've seen so many friends going and might have a different view of life. We're all born to die, sooner or later. Hope your friend will find the best possible way to live a livable life.

Good luck from lower northeast......

Edited March 20, 2013 by sirchai

[Almera]

The thing is I don't really care about the chanote as I know the loan would be repaid eventually but can't afford that much at the moment.

Well there you go then.

If that is the reality of the situation that is the reality of the situation.

[apetley]

Has it been suggested that he fly back to Oz?

Maybe offer the airfare yourself.

[DILLIGAD]

People do look at our house and land/equipment and assume that I'm a "rich guy", but I've built what we have up over the years when working offshore, so I'm asset rich and cash poor at the moment. ( I'm finally back to work next week to start solving that problem)

I think you may find that they think you have given everything to your wife and grow additional funds off a magical 'golden tree' in your garden so they will ask you for long-term loans that translate into Thai as the word 'gift.'

Sorry for sounding so sceptical as you are clearly one of the 'good guys' and I take my hat off to you.

Good luck

[kwonitoy]

People do look at our house and land/equipment and assume that I'm a "rich guy", but I've built what we have up over the years when working offshore, so I'm asset rich and cash poor at the moment. ( I'm finally back to work next week to start solving that problem)

I think you may find that they think you have given everything to your wife and grow additional funds off a magical 'golden tree' in your garden so they will ask you for long-term loans that translate into Thai as the word 'gift.'

Sorry for sounding so sceptical as you are clearly one of the 'good guys' and I take my hat off to you.

Good luck

Oddly enough it's not the local Thai people that come up with that comment,

It's usually the OAP crowd that comes upcountry with the newly met GF in tow.

The GF showing off basically what they want and desire from a falang,

[cardholder]

Has it been suggested that he fly back to Oz? Maybe offer the airfare yourself.

You have been around long enough to know that you should read the thread before posting !!

[richardjm65]

This sad situation almost mirrors a topic I started on 8th January in General Topics, concerning a sick Brit. Although there was much response and sympathy, no real solution emerged. As it happens, we attended his funeral two weeks ago. As one poster in that thread pointed out, these occurrencies will increase as the expat population grows and ages. Many guys do not anticipate the possibilities of accidents or age-related problems, are unable to fall back on insurance and continue to live on here in denial of the inevitable and with insufficient funds to handle such emergencies, have to rely on the generosity of friends or acquaintances to help them through. And there's surely a limit to how much most of us can do to help. Or how frequently.

Also, over the years, I've seen guys that died without making any provision for their partner. If the partnership has lasted some few years, it must be very distressing to see your partner's assets taken (perhaps), by a wife and the children from a previous marriage, who find themselves unable to consider the needs of the remaining Thai family.

It would be great to imagine that one's personal generosity to a friend or acquaintance might be repaid - but is that really likely to be the case? And if you cannot comfortably afford it, is it reasonable to take the risk?

[OxfordWill]

<p>Is the friendship you have with him worth 150 000 baht to you? If so, find a way to give it. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>The tricky bit is how to ensure you do not become a magnet for beggars in doing so.</p>

Edited March 21, 2013 by OxfordWill

[simple1]

So sad the story might be, so easy is the solution. Your friend's kidneys aren't working, guess because of the medication. Nobody really knows if he's taking the right medicine.( Regarding side effects, etc..)

I'd suggest to do all to get him stable to be able to fly back to his country. Even if you could pay for all medical expenses, you'd never know when his last day will come. Could be very soon, considering his health issues.

Even a "successful" heart op doesn't mean that he'll be okay afterwards, as other problems might occur.

There must be a way to have medical assistance flying him back, supported by your government.

I went through all that with two older men, who had no insurance in LOS. Your post might be helpful that some "expats" without any coverage will buy an insurance policy that suits them.

Can't you just talk to his doctors, if there's way to get him back to his country for further treatment? Most airplanes do have oxygen on board.

( sarcasm)

Here's my own personal decision. I won't hang on machines that keep me alive, should I get serious health problems here. Made my last will and I made it clear in three languages.

I've seen so many friends going and might have a different view of life. We're all born to die, sooner or later. Hope your friend will find the best possible way to live a livable life.

Good luck from lower northeast......

The Australian government makes it very clear that they will not fund medical repatriation for citizens living/traveling overseas, but would assist in facilitating arrangements. If the OPs friend's family in Australia are not prepared to assist him financially/take out a loan etc it's looks like he is in a very tough situation. Does he have any assets in Australia that he can instruct a lawyer to liquidate?

To be brutally pragmatic the gentleman's Thai family need to ensure they are able to support themselves when he eventually passes away & not get into a large amount of debt, unless they have the means to pay it off in a reasonable period. I hope the OP can assist his friend to be physically comfortable & not suffer. Unless it's to late, it would be a good idea for the OPs friend to have a Living Will just in case the hospital keep him going on until all financial resources are drained.

OP: From a stranger I wish you and your friend all the best and that he doesn't suffer unnecessarily. Sounds like his wife is a good woman - very sad...

Edited March 21, 2013 by simple1

[wayned]

It's a sad situation, but I would also have him look at the cost of surgery that he has been quoted and get a second opinion and cost estimate. The OP said that he fell and had hip replacement surgery that cost him 250000 baht. I "crashed down off a ladder" last August and had to have hip replacement surgery. I had the surgery in a private hospital and was in the hospital 10 days. The entire cost was just a little under 70000 baht. It seems that he is paying way too much unless there were complications.

[Bluenose BKK]

Surely if he has chanotes to offer then he can get a secured bank loan on the back of that and any other assets he might have?Hospital flights are ridiculously expensive,think around USD $50,000 to Aus or more!

Kidneys gone and heart attack does sound like he's not long for this world unfortunately but if the OP is going back to work offshore he could easily earn that and much more in the first month,surely?

If he could get back to the UK they would treat him there free of charge and bill the Australian Government,we get health tourists from Africa and everywhere else on a daily basis!

[SlyAnimal]

Does your friend have a car?

He could sell it

Thus if he sells it, he'll have enough for his heart operation. He can still take the bus or a motorcycle to go places

Now if he can sell his car, in order to pay for his heart operation, but instead asks for money from friends etc, then essentially he's actually asking for money to buy a car.

If the money he's asking for, is for his car, not for a heart operation, would you still give/lend him the money?

If he doesn't have a car, think the same thing about his land. He could sell the land, even if it's the house that he lives in, he could sell it and rent instead. Would you give/lend him money to buy a house for his wife rather than renting/staying with family?

[MobileContent]

Heats up for the OP to think about his friend which would be for me a very difficult situation as well.

If a close friend of my would be in this kind of situation I would help but still would take the Chanote title as a guarantee and make sure the name is transferred to my wife. A contract could be drawn up with the wife of his close friend that they have 2 years time to buy the Chanote/land title back. I have been now 24 years in Thailand and normally money lend to friends including locals are seldom recovered.

This of course is only my own opinion.

[bobbysan124]

Your contribution is from the heart and it's what you can do without jeopardizing your own circumstance. The gentleman has alternatives and should take advantage of the one that works involving as few others as possible.

[thunder30101]

A very sad situation indeed not uncommon in thailand actually. To the people saying the op can afford giving 200K because he has a good job you sound like thais, oh you rich falang with money tree in back yard, no problem for you. He worked hard to make his money and isnt required to deprive his family of 200K which he will need someday himself just because another person has a problem. Honestly I cant see with failing kidneys, and being overweight an honest doctor doing heart surgery as the odds of complications and failure of the procedure would be very high, I seriously doubt if he would make it off the table. Another question I would add (not knowing if we are talking bypass,stents, valve repair or even replacement)is the costs quoted for the surgery seem high, Is this quote from KK ram or the heart center at srinkarin which I think would be much cheaper, I have friends who use the heart center and speak highly of it and by the way they are married to thais and are covered by the thai health care system (why isnt he ? something I would def. ask the wife). I am guessing the price is so high due to all of the combined factors. Unfortunately we all are living on borrowed time after a certain age and just have to make the best of what we have left and accept the end. Take care of your family first as they are the most important thing in the world.

[Bluenose BKK]

A very sad situation indeed not uncommon in thailand actually. To the people saying the op can afford giving 200K because he has a good job you sound like thais, oh you rich falang with money tree in back yard, no problem for you. He worked hard to make his money and isnt required to deprive his family of 200K which he will need someday himself just because another person has a problem. Honestly I cant see with failing kidneys, and being overweight an honest doctor doing heart surgery as the odds of complications and failure of the procedure would be very high, I seriously doubt if he would make it off the table. Another question I would add (not knowing if we are talking bypass,stents, valve repair or even replacement)is the costs quoted for the surgery seem high, Is this quote from KK ram or the heart center at srinkarin which I think would be much cheaper, I have friends who use the heart center and speak highly of it and by the way they are married to thais and are covered by the thai health care system (why isnt he ? something I would def. ask the wife). I am guessing the price is so high due to all of the combined factors. Unfortunately we all are living on borrowed time after a certain age and just have to make the best of what we have left and accept the end. Take care of your family first as they are the most important thing in the world.

I agree 100% with you,I'm sure this guy must have assets worth 200k to secure a loan on the money,it's just typical Thais trying to play the rich falang for a mug again.What Westerner can't get his hands on 200k or doesn't have 200k of assets &lt;deleted&gt;?

If his kids are disowning him for the sake of just 200k you have to think there is a back story and ulterior motives going on here,sorry to be so negative but the whole story stinks to me,BTW I'm a financial adviser!