Should Foreigners (Permanent Residents) Contribute To A Change?

[CMfoodie]

We are here by choice as guests. Its tantamount to being a guest in ones home and telling the host what is wrong. Unless asked then act as a guest. Permanent guests are and always will be "foreign."

[CMNightRider]

As a foreigner, you are given temporary permission to live in Thailand, one year at a time. Foreigners as a group or individually will never be allowed to change anything. If you drive, get used to little to no traffic enforcement. As a pedestrian, you are just below a soi dog. You can't even own land. As far as air quality, it will be smokey this time of the year until the end of time. I think the best we can do, is enjoy the low cost of living, friendly people, mild weather, relax, and enjoy life.

[hellodolly]

I'm not sure Thai people in Chiang Mai would respond well to having foreigners openly trying to change or tweak things. I also don’t think that resistance would be limited to Chiang Mai, unlikely any populace in the world would welcome involvement from outsiders.

Whether or not the contribution is small, unless asked, it is probably not welcome.

I agree that when something directly affects you, and there seems obvious better ways to do it, it can be frustrating, but the natural human state is against accepting advice from outsiders.

I would go as far to say that the average citizen joe has limited ability to change much about government bureaucracy and procedures, one of the main gripes on TV.

On a micro level I do believe that change can be affected and thinking influenced to a great extent, but with longer term results.

Sorry but I don't believe that the total monthly / yearly of farangs living in Chiang Mai is all that big in comparison to the actual local economy and the cash, investment etc., that it produces.

I noticed one day when I was in doing my yearly renewal that they had serviced about 30 people by 3:00 I don't know if the number on their boards included appointments or not so I just added 10 to the figure and allowed for another 5 bringing their total to 45 for the day. Call that a typical day and figure on about 240 working days and you come up with a figure of 10,080 retirees. Admittedly a very rough figure but I believe it is in the ball bark.

Hard to say how much these people contribute to the economy. We all know there are people claiming large incomes who in reality have small incomes. Also people with the 800,000 baht in the bank who just borrowed it for the required time.

I have no idea of how many have the other type one year or the bossiness license work permits and school permits but I don't think they contribute that much more than a well paid Thai would. But all in all I would make a rough guess at 30,000 permanent residents. Hard to say as to how much they would add to the economy. I believe it to be a fair amount of money but compared to the total money spent each year I would think it is not that big a part of the economy.

Just rough figures and my opinion feel free to throw in corrections or amendments.

[Berkshire]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

[LarryBird]

LOL, ok.

[bluweyze]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

the UK does NOT want him back!!!

[CMNightRider]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

I would like to see Piers Morgan go back to where he came from, along with his pin head ideas about gun control. Most in the UK are happy he left. Can you imagine if Morgan were allowed on Thai Television, spewing his idiotic ideas about what the Thai's should or should not do? He wouldn't have to worry about reporting for his 90 day or yearly visa anymore. That jerk would be evicted before he had time to pack his suitcase.

[scorecard]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

I would like to see Piers Morgan go back to where he came from, along with his pin head ideas about gun control. Most in the UK are happy he left. Can you imagine if Morgan were allowed on Thai Television, spewing his idiotic ideas about what the Thai's should or should not do? He wouldn't have to worry about reporting for his 90 day or yearly visa anymore. That jerk would be evicted before he had time to pack his suitcase.

... spewing his idiotic ideas ..... . Well that may be your opionin CMNightRider (which you are perfectly entitled to), but others have quite different opinions.

You say 'most in UK were happy he left'. What's your source for this one?

[CMNightRider]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

I would like to see Piers Morgan go back to where he came from, along with his pin head ideas about gun control. Most in the UK are happy he left. Can you imagine if Morgan were allowed on Thai Television, spewing his idiotic ideas about what the Thai's should or should not do? He wouldn't have to worry about reporting for his 90 day or yearly visa anymore. That jerk would be evicted before he had time to pack his suitcase.

... spewing his idiotic ideas ..... . Well that may be your opionin CMNightRider (which you are perfectly entitled to), but others have quite different opinions.

You say 'most in UK were happy he left'. What's your source for this one?

Which "idiotic idea" that Morgan spews are you referring to that "others have quite different opinions?"

[Zaza4U]

This place gives more freedom and opportunity than back home. The only issue I see is that the Thai people don't enforce their own laws. They need to sort that out, not us.

Edited March 28, 2013 by metisdead
: Large font reset to normal.

[tropico]

Gun control is an idiotic idea? I am not sure what is more idiotic than letting anybody buy machine guns and get into a cinema and kill dozens of innocents! They say that guns don't kill people but are people who kill other people! And I am agree with that however if you have access to a machine gun you can kill many more people than if you have just a knife (this is my view though).

But anyway, Morgan as a foreigner (and a showman) decided to talk about something that is definitely a problem and he gave some ideas and possible solutions which I believe could be in part useful but many people just felt like he had no right to talk whatsoever just because he is not American and he might not understand the local issues. I just think that if something is logic to understand it does not matter where you come from but you can give logic answers to resolve the problem even though it might be more complicated than what it looks like.

I also agree that the Thai people should understand the problems by themselves (if they think they have some) and take actions, following their cultural beliefs and way of life. But I just thought that maybe foreigners that are permanent residents, living in Thailand and facing the same problems as anybody else, could somehow just be part of a dialog together with Thais. I believe that diversity can be an asset and maybe there are approaches to problems that could be more efficient and maybe could be explored or maybe not.

But of course this is just my idea and in a forum there are many people with many ideas. Who can say which one is correct and which one is not?

[wolf5370]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

I would like to see Piers Morgan go back to where he came from, along with his pin head ideas about gun control. Most in the UK are happy he left. Can you imagine if Morgan were allowed on Thai Television, spewing his idiotic ideas about what the Thai's should or should not do? He wouldn't have to worry about reporting for his 90 day or yearly visa anymore. That jerk would be evicted before he had time to pack his suitcase.

Yes Mr CMNightRider, you prove the point exactly. There is no point starting a dialogue or even putting forward suggestions as the local xenophobic idiots (whosoever that may be) are not interested in listening or taking anything on board, their impermeable minds are too wrapped up in the fact that the speaker's accent is wrong; and their primordial instinct is to attack as they go straight into defensive mode.

[PoodMaiDai]

I've never bought into the "this is not your country" bull crap. THIS IS OUR WORLD. We all share it.

Imaginary borders drawn up by greedy kings and rulers are meaningless and are only there to help enslave and tax their free range human cattle.

Anyone who believes that because you stepped over an imagery line that you are less of a human than you were before you stepped over it, needs to wake up. And anyone who believes they are superior to others because they reside within those imaginary lines need a reality check.

So yes, if you can make the world a better place, or even the lives of a few better, go for it. Screw the laws, screw national pride, screw what everyone else says. Do what you know is right.

[PoodMaiDai]

There is no point starting a dialogue or even putting forward suggestions as the local xenophobic idiots (whosoever that may be) are not interested in listening or taking anything on board, their impermeable minds are too wrapped up in the fact that the speaker's accent is wrong; and their primordial instinct is to attack as they go straight into defensive mode.

While I believe everyone should do what they can to make the world better, I can not argue your statement. Xenophobia is an enormous problem here. We are looked upon by too many (not all) here as lower than buffalo, regardless of our education, experience, or profession. That is a huge hurdle to try to get over and for some you never will. So then you focus on the ones you can help and let the rest live in their backwards little bubble.

[Mestizo]

I have no idea of how many have the other type one year or the bossiness license work permits and school permits but I don't think they contribute that much more than a well paid Thai would. But all in all I would make a rough guess at 30,000 permanent residents. Hard to say as to how much they would add to the economy. I believe it to be a fair amount of money but compared to the total money spent each year I would think it is not that big a part of the economy.

Just rough figures and my opinion feel free to throw in corrections or amendments.

I think you are forgetting about the salary tax aspect of all that. A well paid Thai in CNX would be making 30K/ month. An expat on an expat salary would be making upwards of 180K/ month. Even an expat making the bare minimum to qualify for a work permet would be making 60K/ month.

So doing extremely rough calculations you can estimate that expats are paying double to 5 or 6 times as much in monthly taxes than a well paid Thai person is.

I know that compared to my Thai girlfriend's pretty decent salary, I pay an insane amount of taxes every month. Insane in the fact that I cant vote and don't really receive any services from the government.

Additionally, the amount of hoops I have to jump thru to renew the biz visa and work permit every year as compared to the average deadbeat expat retiree, is sickening. You would think that working expats that are directly paying huge sums of taxes, etc, should be given priority and have an easier path every year.

-Mestizo

[CMNightRider]

I have no idea of how many have the other type one year or the bossiness license work permits and school permits but I don't think they contribute that much more than a well paid Thai would. But all in all I would make a rough guess at 30,000 permanent residents. Hard to say as to how much they would add to the economy. I believe it to be a fair amount of money but compared to the total money spent each year I would think it is not that big a part of the economy.

Just rough figures and my opinion feel free to throw in corrections or amendments.

I think you are forgetting about the salary tax aspect of all that. A well paid Thai in CNX would be making 30K/ month. An expat on an expat salary would be making upwards of 180K/ month. Even an expat making the bare minimum to qualify for a work permet would be making 60K/ month.

So doing extremely rough calculations you can estimate that expats are paying double to 5 or 6 times as much in monthly taxes than a well paid Thai person is.

I know that compared to my Thai girlfriend's pretty decent salary, I pay an insane amount of taxes every month. Insane in the fact that I cant vote and don't really receive any services from the government.

Additionally, the amount of hoops I have to jump thru to renew the biz visa and work permit every year as compared to the average deadbeat expat retiree, is sickening. You would think that working expats that are directly paying huge sums of taxes, etc, should be given priority and have an easier path every year.

-Mestizo

Hey, hey, hey, average deadbeat expat retiree?? We have feelings you know, lol.

[tropico]

I've never bought into the "this is not your country" bull crap. THIS IS OUR WORLD. We all share it.

Imaginary borders drawn up by greedy kings and rulers are meaningless and are only there to help enslave and tax their free range human cattle.

Anyone who believes that because you stepped over an imagery line that you are less of a human than you were before you stepped over it, needs to wake up. And anyone who believes they are superior to others because they reside within those imaginary lines need a reality check.

So yes, if you can make the world a better place, or even the lives of a few better, go for it. Screw the laws, screw national pride, screw what everyone else says. Do what you know is right.

Totally agree!!!

In my view this is what everybody should feel

[hellodolly]

I have no idea of how many have the other type one year or the bossiness license work permits and school permits but I don't think they contribute that much more than a well paid Thai would. But all in all I would make a rough guess at 30,000 permanent residents. Hard to say as to how much they would add to the economy. I believe it to be a fair amount of money but compared to the total money spent each year I would think it is not that big a part of the economy.

Just rough figures and my opinion feel free to throw in corrections or amendments.

I think you are forgetting about the salary tax aspect of all that. A well paid Thai in CNX would be making 30K/ month. An expat on an expat salary would be making upwards of 180K/ month. Even an expat making the bare minimum to qualify for a work permet would be making 60K/ month.

So doing extremely rough calculations you can estimate that expats are paying double to 5 or 6 times as much in monthly taxes than a well paid Thai person is.

I know that compared to my Thai girlfriend's pretty decent salary, I pay an insane amount of taxes every month. Insane in the fact that I cant vote and don't really receive any services from the government.

Additionally, the amount of hoops I have to jump thru to renew the biz visa and work permit every year as compared to the average deadbeat expat retiree, is sickening. You would think that working expats that are directly paying huge sums of taxes, etc, should be given priority and have an easier path every year.

-Mestizo

Well two things

1 What makes up an average deadbeat expat retiree? For that matter what is one.

2 There are very few expats making the money you talk about. 20,000 to 30,000 is about the norm for an English teacher.

Also the people on student visas are probably bringing in less. Of course a fair amount of them may be trust fund babies.

If the hoops you have to jump through are so bad you could stay in Washington D C. (That was a sick joke). But think about it If you are making the type money you claim how bad are they.

Would not a good lawyer or accounted take care of them?

[jackr]

Should Foreigners (Permanent Residents) Contribute To A Change?

We are tolerated 'guests', no more, often less; take a back seat and smoke some cigarettes.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

If someone came to my country and said 'we used to have the same problem in our country with X.... To fix it, we did this..........." I don't see how I could have a problem with that... Littering would be a good example.. America used to have a problem with this.. The country did some things to fix it, now for the most part, there isn't trash on the side of every road.. (Of course some TV cynic genius will point out some form of pollution, which is irrelevant)..

If the same light, if someone told me, their country had a problem with school shootings, and they took certain measures to improve the issue, I would listen.

I think you can help on things that are clear cut problems, and the average citizen would be willing to listen.. If you're out on the streets thumping away about how Thailand should handle boarder issues and such things, they'd probably tell you to buzz off..

Just my 2 cents.

Funny you should bring this up using the USA as an example. In America, we do have a problem with school shootings and gun crimes in general. A foreigner, Mr. Piers Morgan (English), on his TV show, discussed rather passionately about what he thought should be done. Consequently, there were loud cries from all over America demanding that this guy be deported. And the things he asked for were quite reasonable.

So your suggestion that any/most sovereign nations would gladly accept the advice of outsiders is rather misguided, if not largely untrue.

Hey give the US some credit. They have a foreigner on TV giving them opinions on a major network.

Are there foreigners on major Thai TV networks giving long winded commentaries?

And Morgan is still on the air so I guess enough people still like him enough. His ratings are down but might rebound.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CobraSnakeNecktie