Thai Govt's Loan Bill: Debate To Focus On Potential For Corruption, Huge Debt Burden

[waza]

A quick question .....Who in the world would loan Thailand this amount of money knowing full well a fair amount is going to be siphoned off??

I think its more of a money laundering scheme where the government offers bonds and shares and foreign investors buy them and receive a dividend each years and the total repaid on maturity. That's why Yingluck is globetrotting looking for investors.

[muttley]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

Wheres that debt now Muttley? Did they pay it off before the PTP took government or are you just full of Sh bad information?

Your arguments would be convincing if you managed to refrain from profanitities. No, who am I kidding, your arguments are far from convincing with or without profanity.

Let me just say this, the Abhisit governments public debt at end of December 2011 was 4.44 Trillion Baht, of that 3.18 Trillion baht being loans directly taken out by the government. So I think you could say No, they didn't pay it off and my information is sound, thank you. You know google or any other search engine would find you that information if you bothered.

[muttley]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

The roads I think the OP is referring to are well and truly the stablished ones prior to 2009. There has not been too much in the way of road construction other than the widening of the Pattaya BKK expressway and a bit on the outter areas.

Well I suppose 7000 odd kilometres isn't much in the scheme of things

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/-Dust-free-road-project-for-Cabinet-30085695.html

[waza]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

Wheres that debt now Muttley? Did they pay it off before the PTP took government or are you just full of Sh bad information?

Your arguments would be convincing if you managed to refrain from profanitities. No, who am I kidding, your arguments are far from convincing with or without profanity.

Let me just say this, the Abhisit governments public debt at end of December 2011 was 4.44 Trillion Baht, of that 3.18 Trillion baht being loans directly taken out by the government. So I think you could say No, they didn't pay it off and my information is sound, thank you. You know google or any other search engine would find you that information if you bothered.

Edited March 28, 2013 by waza

[kimamey]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

Wheres that debt now Muttley? Did they pay it off before the PTP took government or are you just full of Sh bad information?

Your arguments would be convincing if you managed to refrain from profanitities. No, who am I kidding, your arguments are far from convincing with or without profanity.

Let me just say this, the Abhisit governments public debt at end of December 2011 was 4.44 Trillion Baht, of that 3.18 Trillion baht being loans directly taken out by the government. So I think you could say No, they didn't pay it off and my information is sound, thank you. You know google or any other search engine would find you that information if you bothered.

I'm afraid Muttley may have a point about convincing arguments. I find if you keep calm and read his posts carefully then make a balanced, non biased comment he will probably not answer it. He did once try with me the tactic of replying to my post without mentioning anything I said. The other reason may be that if you take time to think your answer through by the time he gets on here another 20 or so mostly overexcited post have pushed yours onto the previous page. That's the problem with all the bickering that goes on here. To be fair this happens with many of the posters on here as well.

Just so I can get back into this I'll quote my post #22.

I can't knowledgeably comment on the 'dust free roads project'

although maybe you can give some details to help me. I'm a bit surprised

that the substandard roads were due to the previous government

considering how many there are. It may be true that some of them are due

the previous government but that doesn't mean that the current

government should come along and say 'That was a good idea, why don't we

do the same?'

By the way you forgot to mention the military who by all accounts

were in charge at the time of the previous government. Abhisit was just a

puppet, or so I've heard.

Ok thanks for listening and I'll leave you to it.

Edited March 28, 2013 by kimamey

[NeverSure]

What I have never understood, is <deleted> does a percentage of GDP for public debt have to do with anything at all unless you're communist? Maybe that's why the world's governments are going broke. Maybe they think the GDP belongs to them?

Gee, my debt is only 10% of my neighbor's income so I'm rich. Oh wait, my neighbor's income isn't mine. Oops. Maybe I'd better worry about what my debt is as a ratio to my income, or at least my assets.

Maybe that's how Japan's debt to GDP got to be 200% of GDP. Someone told them the GDP was theirs to spend?

But wait. It gets worse. GDP starts with "gross." That's not spendable profit, that's product output value - gross.

Pretty gross all right I'd say.

[muttley]

I'm afraid Muttley may have a point about convincing arguments. I find if you keep calm and read his posts carefully then make a balanced, non biased comment he will probably not answer it. He did once try with me the tactic of replying to my post without mentioning anything I said. The other reason may be that if you take time to think your answer through by the time he gets on here another 20 or so mostly overexcited post have pushed yours onto the previous page. That's the problem with all the bickering that goes on here. To be fair this happens with many of the posters on here as well.

Just so I can get back into this I'll quote my post #22.

I can't knowledgeably comment on the 'dust free roads project'

although maybe you can give some details to help me. I'm a bit surprised

that the substandard roads were due to the previous government

considering how many there are. It may be true that some of them are due

the previous government but that doesn't mean that the current

government should come along and say 'That was a good idea, why don't we

do the same?'

By the way you forgot to mention the military who by all accounts

were in charge at the time of the previous government. Abhisit was just a

puppet, or so I've heard.

Ok thanks for listening and I'll leave you to it.

"He did once try with me the tactic of replying to my post without mentioning anything I said."

Really? I don't recall, please remind me of the post in question. Or is it the one above? If so, yet again I am disappointed that it seems like nobody wants to find out things for themselves and want others to do it for them - it's easy google "thailand dust free road corruption" or if you're feeling particularly lazy go here

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/02/02/business/Bhum-Jai-Thai-bolstering-Transport-Ministry-perman-30121619.html

and then investigate the Bhum Jai Thai/Newin/Abhisit/Bangkok buses linkage.

"By the way you forgot to mention the military who by all accounts

were in charge at the time of the previous government. Abhisit was just a

puppet, or so I've heard."

Talk about "replying to my post without mentioning anything I said"

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[kimamey]

I'm afraid Muttley may have a point about convincing arguments. I find if you keep calm and read his posts carefully then make a balanced, non biased comment he will probably not answer it. He did once try with me the tactic of replying to my post without mentioning anything I said. The other reason may be that if you take time to think your answer through by the time he gets on here another 20 or so mostly overexcited post have pushed yours onto the previous page. That's the problem with all the bickering that goes on here. To be fair this happens with many of the posters on here as well.

Just so I can get back into this I'll quote my post #22.

I can't knowledgeably comment on the 'dust free roads project'

although maybe you can give some details to help me. I'm a bit surprised

that the substandard roads were due to the previous government

considering how many there are. It may be true that some of them are due

the previous government but that doesn't mean that the current

government should come along and say 'That was a good idea, why don't we

do the same?'

By the way you forgot to mention the military who by all accounts

were in charge at the time of the previous government. Abhisit was just a

puppet, or so I've heard.

Ok thanks for listening and I'll leave you to it.

"He did once try with me the tactic of replying to my post without mentioning anything I said."

Really? I don't recall, please remind me of the post in question. Or is it the one above? If so, yet again I am disappointed that it seems like nobody wants to find out things for themselves and want others to do it for them - it's easy google "thailand dust free road corruption" or if you're feeling particularly lazy go here

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/02/02/business/Bhum-Jai-Thai-bolstering-Transport-Ministry-perman-30121619.html

and then investigate the Bhum Jai Thai/Newin/Abhisit/Bangkok buses linkage.

"By the way you forgot to mention the military who by all accounts

were in charge at the time of the previous government. Abhisit was just a

puppet, or so I've heard."

Talk about "replying to my post without mentioning anything I said"

I'll try to find that post although it was a while ago so it may be difficult.

I did search for dust free roads but I couldn't find anything apart from stories about the plans and about roads opening. I thought since you'd mentioned it you might have a link to some information. Your link here only mentions concerns about corruption. I can't see anything about actual corruption or about them being sub standard. I'd be very surprised if there was no corruption but if there's any evidence then legal action should be taken. If there was corruption that doesn't mean the current government should do the same. I'd also not be surprised if some were substandard judging by some I've seen but are you sure they are all a result of this dust free roads scheme?

The bit about the military may be a bit unfair and wasn't really directed at you but all those who used to claim Abhisit was put into power by the military and was just a puppet. That stopped as soon as it was decided to try to blame the deaths in 2010 on Abhisit and Suthep whilst avoiding blaming the military.

I think you'll find by asking about the dust free roads and the previous governments responsibility regarding substandard roads I was mentioning something you said.

[justathought]

One thing for sure is that at least half the money will be lost to corruption and almost all of it to the Chinese Thai elite.

[dcutman]

One thing for sure is that at least half the money will be lost to corruption and almost all of it to the Chinese Thai elite.

A good read, and good possibility of the road Thailand is traveling down.

In June 2011 AP reported: China's multibillion-dollar railway plan

"has provoked complaints that it is too expensive for a country where

millions of people still live in poverty. Critics say railway officials

have diverted too much money to high-speed rail and should be expanding

lower-cost traditional rail. The replacement of slower lines with more

expensive high-speed trains has prompted complaints from passengers

reluctant to pay higher fares, especially on shorter routes. [source:

Wu Zhong wrote in the Asia Times, “Zhang, 56, an associate of Liu, was

regarded as the ‘father of China's high-speed railways.’ Details of the

case are shocking the public. Zhang reportedly has US$2.8 billion

stashed away in Swiss and US bank accounts, wealth rivaling that of a

small country.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=1848&catid=13

Edited March 30, 2013 by dcutman

[15Peter20]

Corruption by those in power in Thailand is endemic. It is the one of the essences of Thainess.

If only this was taken to heart by the ever-so-indignant stalwarts of TV news forum, blood pressure levels would be significantly reduced all round. By all means campaign for greater transparency, but drop the faux-disbelief at the daily shenanigans we are exposed to here.

[thaicbr]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

Blimey. I didn't realise that Abhisit and his cronies built all the roads in Thailand in 2009. The roads that I have been driving on must have been all in my imagination then. Petchasem rd down past prachuap kiri kan or highway one past Nakhon sawan god awful condition. But I do agree Newin's Buamjaithai "dust free roads" project was a fiasco. Mainly due to trying to build tarmac or concrete roads in floodplains. It ain't no good putting a topping on a road when the foundation gets washed away.

sent from my phone with TV Android app. if the Quotes are screwed its not my fault. its the bloody app.

[muttley]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

Blimey. I didn't realise that Abhisit and his cronies built all the roads in Thailand in 2009. The roads that I have been driving on must have been all in my imagination then. Petchasem rd down past prachuap kiri kan or highway one past Nakhon sawan god awful condition. But I do agree Newin's Buamjaithai "dust free roads" project was a fiasco. Mainly due to trying to build tarmac or concrete roads in floodplains. It ain't no good putting a topping on a road when the foundation gets washed away.

sent from my phone with TV Android app. if the Quotes are screwed its not my fault. its the bloody app.

Cherry picking again and taken out of context, the usual. If you read my response properly you will find my reply to locationthailands statement

" The roads I think the OP is referring to are well and truly the stablished ones prior to 2009. There has not been too much in the way of road construction other than the widening of the Pattaya BKK expressway and a bit on the outter areas"

was in order, as I pointed out to him, rather than "not much road construction" ,7000kms had been built under the corruption riddled dust free roads project.

[OzMick]

One thing for sure is that at least half the money will be lost to corruption and almost all of it to the Chinese Thai elite.

A good read, and good possibility of the road Thailand is traveling down.

In June 2011 AP reported: China's multibillion-dollar railway plan

"has provoked complaints that it is too expensive for a country where

millions of people still live in poverty. Critics say railway officials

have diverted too much money to high-speed rail and should be expanding

lower-cost traditional rail. The replacement of slower lines with more

expensive high-speed trains has prompted complaints from passengers

reluctant to pay higher fares, especially on shorter routes. [source:

Wu Zhong wrote in the Asia Times, “Zhang, 56, an associate of Liu, was

regarded as the ‘father of China's high-speed railways.’ Details of the

case are shocking the public. Zhang reportedly has US$2.8 billion

stashed away in Swiss and US bank accounts, wealth rivaling that of a

small country.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=1848&catid=13

Does anybody know when PTP announced plans for thailand's HSR? I suspect it was shortly after this report of massive theft (March 2011).

I strongly encourage anybody interested to read the link provided above. it seems reality is even worse than than ourmost dire predictions.

[muttley]

One thing for sure is that at least half the money will be lost to corruption and almost all of it to the Chinese Thai elite.

A good read, and good possibility of the road Thailand is traveling down.

In June 2011 AP reported: China's multibillion-dollar railway plan

"has provoked complaints that it is too expensive for a country where

millions of people still live in poverty. Critics say railway officials

have diverted too much money to high-speed rail and should be expanding

lower-cost traditional rail. The replacement of slower lines with more

expensive high-speed trains has prompted complaints from passengers

reluctant to pay higher fares, especially on shorter routes. [source:

Wu Zhong wrote in the Asia Times, “Zhang, 56, an associate of Liu, was

regarded as the ‘father of China's high-speed railways.’ Details of the

case are shocking the public. Zhang reportedly has US$2.8 billion

stashed away in Swiss and US bank accounts, wealth rivaling that of a

small country.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=1848&catid=13

Does anybody know when PTP announced plans for thailand's HSR? I suspect it was shortly after this report of massive theft (March 2011).

I strongly encourage anybody interested to read the link provided above. it seems reality is even worse than than ourmost dire predictions.

Thailand announced the planning of High Speed train links on December 8th 2012

http://news.liveandinvestoverseas.com/Investment/thailand-plans-high-speed-railway.html

Edited March 31, 2013 by muttley

[OzMick]

One thing for sure is that at least half the money will be lost to corruption and almost all of it to the Chinese Thai elite.

A good read, and good possibility of the road Thailand is traveling down.

In June 2011 AP reported: China's multibillion-dollar railway plan

"has provoked complaints that it is too expensive for a country where

millions of people still live in poverty. Critics say railway officials

have diverted too much money to high-speed rail and should be expanding

lower-cost traditional rail. The replacement of slower lines with more

expensive high-speed trains has prompted complaints from passengers

reluctant to pay higher fares, especially on shorter routes. [source:

Wu Zhong wrote in the Asia Times, “Zhang, 56, an associate of Liu, was

regarded as the ‘father of China's high-speed railways.’ Details of the

case are shocking the public. Zhang reportedly has US$2.8 billion

stashed away in Swiss and US bank accounts, wealth rivaling that of a

small country.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=1848&catid=13

Does anybody know when PTP announced plans for thailand's HSR? I suspect it was shortly after this report of massive theft (March 2011).

I strongly encourage anybody interested to read the link provided above. it seems reality is even worse than than ourmost dire predictions.

Thailand announced the planning of High Speed train links on December 8th 2012

http://news.liveandinvestoverseas.com/Investment/thailand-plans-high-speed-railway.html

Oh please! Yingluk was planning lunchbox menus in bloody August.

[whybother]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

Blimey. I didn't realise that Abhisit and his cronies built all the roads in Thailand in 2009. The roads that I have been driving on must have been all in my imagination then. Petchasem rd down past prachuap kiri kan or highway one past Nakhon sawan god awful condition. But I do agree Newin's Buamjaithai "dust free roads" project was a fiasco. Mainly due to trying to build tarmac or concrete roads in floodplains. It ain't no good putting a topping on a road when the foundation gets washed away.

sent from my phone with TV Android app. if the Quotes are screwed its not my fault. its the bloody app.

Cherry picking again and taken out of context, the usual. If you read my response properly you will find my reply to locationthailands statement

" The roads I think the OP is referring to are well and truly the stablished ones prior to 2009. There has not been too much in the way of road construction other than the widening of the Pattaya BKK expressway and a bit on the outter areas"

was in order, as I pointed out to him, rather than "not much road construction" ,7000kms had been built under the corruption riddled dust free roads project.

It seems that the Abhisit government did a brilliant job saving money on the Dust Free roads project.

According to one of your links above, the 7000 kms was going to cost 30+ billion baht when proposed under the Samak/Somchai governments, but the Democrats only needed 3 billion baht to do it.

Brilliant job, I say.

[Ricardo]

I strongly encourage anybody interested to read the link provided above. it seems reality is even worse than than ourmost dire predictions.

Thailand announced the planning of High Speed train links on December 8th 2012

http://news.liveandinvestoverseas.com/Investment/thailand-plans-high-speed-railway.html

Interestingly this article suggests that the cost of the line from Nong Hai to Bangkok is only US$ 6.6 billion, not the US$ 30-billion of the original MOU with the Chinese, or whatever PTP now propose to borrow for this part of their infrastructure-upgrade, could someone have forgotten to add-in 'administrative-fees' of some sort ?

[joy16]

Privatization of the SRT(State Railway of Thailand) would reduce the bloodletting of the government's coffers and modernize the rail transport system. Highways are a disgrace due to substandard roads being built/rebuilt/and then some and because trucks are not being severely and consistently enough for being overloaded. Privatize selected highways throughout the country and collect tolls to maintain them.

Please note that said sub standard roads were the result of the totally corrupt "dust free roads" project, just one of the many projects undertaken during the short life of the previous governments 1.43 Trillion baht "Investing from strength to strength" loan back in 2009.

It seems like you are the one of propaganda victim. The fact is the previous government loaned not over 400 billion baht.

Edited March 31, 2013 by joy16

[dcutman]

One thing for sure is that at least half the money will be lost to corruption and almost all of it to the Chinese Thai elite.

A good read, and good possibility of the road Thailand is traveling down.

In June 2011 AP reported: China's multibillion-dollar railway plan

"has provoked complaints that it is too expensive for a country where

millions of people still live in poverty. Critics say railway officials

have diverted too much money to high-speed rail and should be expanding

lower-cost traditional rail. The replacement of slower lines with more

expensive high-speed trains has prompted complaints from passengers

reluctant to pay higher fares, especially on shorter routes. [source:

Wu Zhong wrote in the Asia Times, “Zhang, 56, an associate of Liu, was

regarded as the ‘father of China's high-speed railways.’ Details of the

case are shocking the public. Zhang reportedly has US$2.8 billion

stashed away in Swiss and US bank accounts, wealth rivaling that of a

small country.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=1848&catid=13

Does anybody know when PTP announced plans for thailand's HSR? I suspect it was shortly after this report of massive theft (March 2011).

I strongly encourage anybody interested to read the link provided above. it seems reality is even worse than than ourmost dire predictions.

Here ya go Mick

The plan and price has changed drastically since then.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/480800-new-govt-proposed-to-approve-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-project/?hl=china%20high%20speed%20rail