Thai Govt's Train Project ' Will Only Benefit The Rich'

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BT2-TRILLION LOAN
Train project 'will only benefit the rich'
The Nation



Tickets could cost up to Bt2,000 for a 700km journey, Democrats say

BANGKOK: -- The opposition Democrat Party mounted an attack on the government in relation to the proposed Bt2-trillion infrastructure projects in the second and final day of the House debate, saying the high-speed-rail system would mostly benefit the rich and there was no proper planning to accommodate changes in the areas involved.

Meanwhile, the Council of State has ruled that the proposed mass-infrastructure projects are legal and can proceed, Finance Ministry permanent secretary Areepong Poo-cha-um said.

Kanok Wongtra-ngan, a Democrat party-list MP, said that as per the calculations of the plan submitted by the administration of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, commuters would end up having to pay about Bt1.30-Bt3.50 per kilometre for the high-speed train. In other words, a 700km journey could cost between Bt1,800 and Bt2,000, higher than some low-cost airlines.

"If there are fewer than 49,600 commuters per day, the ticket costs will be even higher. Any route that costs commuters more than Bt1,000 one-way will not have customers, because they will choose a cheaper mode of transport. Hence these high-speed trains will only benefit rich folk and businesspeople," Kanok said.

He also slammed Transport Minister Chadchart Sittipunt, saying the remarks he made in Parliament on Thursday were reckless because no plan had been put forward yet as to how all the electricity needed for these trains would be generated.

Chadchart defended himself yesterday by saying that it was important to put this high-speed-rail project in motion and that the Pheu Thai government would implement this as well as the link to Nong Khai if elected for a second term.

The high-speed train is meant to link Bangkok with Chiang Mai, Nakhon Ratchasima, Hua Hin and Rayong.

"The government is not being reckless because we're working within a feasible framework," he said. "For those who think the tickets [for the high-speed train] will be expensive, I think everyone understands that the target groups differ from those using double-track [ordinary] trains, and that's why the government is investing in the ordinary trains nationwide first. In order to serve people's needs, there are more proposed double-track train projects than high-speed ones.

"As for our readiness, we have signed memoranda of understanding with China, Japan and France to get people trained. As for the need for more electricity, we have calculated that this project will only use 1 per cent more power," Chadchart said.

Samart Rajpolsit, another Democrat party-list MP, also questioned why the estimated cost of construction for the high-speed rail system had doubled from Bt300 million per kilometre in 2010 to Bt600 million now.

Democrat MP Boonyod Sukthinthai asked why Wip Winyarat, son of prime minister's policy adviser Pansak Winyarat, was appointed to conduct feasibility research on the high-speed-rail project even though he has no engineering background.


-- The Nation 2013-03-30

[Bellweather]

Another shocking, earth shattering headline. When did anything in Thailand not favour those and such as those ?

[LuckyLew]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

[OZEMADE]

Is the new high speed train up on pylons or on the ground. If on the ground, I can see a heap of bikes stacked on the front of it when it reaches it's destination.

They cant judge the speed of their own bikes let alone something doing 2 or 3 hundred Kilometers an hour. What a bang that will make.

[dcutman]

Train project 'will only benefit the rich'

Thaksin Yingluck did promise in the election campaign, every Thai will be rich. Whats the problem?

[Thailand1977]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

Maybe they ought to get rid of 5 star hotels and the airports as poor people cant afford these either.

The article does say they are upgrading existing trains, but high speed rail is a very good idea imho.

40 billion pound approx seems a decent price, in England theyre talking of building a high speed line from London to Birmingham for 30 billion and its only 160KM. Steel and trains cost the same no matter where you are.

[culicine]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

[fareastguy]

This will not worry Yingluk in any way... less foot passengers means more room for fresh fruit & vegetables..

"problem solved" !!

Poor passengers will use the existing rail network & cattle trucks to move around the country, while all the veg travels at high speed in air-conditioned luxury !!

T.I.T

[OZEMADE]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

Thai price Farung price, we will pay top fare.

[simple1]

Just curious, has there been any announcements in parallel to this proposed project to increase the capability of the intermodal transportation hubs for the goods supply chain or is this outsourced to the business world? Also has the cost for maintenance factored in the ROI for the project? Below is an outline for European costs for maintaining a dual track rail network from 2009. You have to factor in lower labour costs in Thailand, but it isn't inexpensive.

"The other cost that is independent of the number of riders is track maintenance. One recent European estimate puts that cost at $140,000 a mile per year for a two-track system. A feasibility study of high-speed rail in Britain came up with the considerably higher figure of $493,000 a mile for surface trains"

Edited March 30, 2013 by simple1

[chainarong]

The fare will cost a little more than that, a return fare to timbuktu will cost around 8 thousand Baht for Thai's and foreigners 50 thousand Baht.

[retell]

700 km for 2000 thb think i take the luxury of driving myself got ac nice music can make pitstops where and wherever i want and still go there cheaper , might take a few hours more to get there

[jackspratt]

Thai price Farung price, we will pay top fare.

Does Thai Airways, another government owned transport network, have dual pricing for domestic flights?

The farang paranoia on this forum is frightening at times.

[dcutman]

In other words, a 700km journey could cost between Bt1,800 and Bt2,000, higher than some low-cost airlines.

"If there are fewer than 49,600 commuters per day, the ticket costs will be even higher.

"For those who think the tickets [for the high-speed train] will be expensive, I think everyone understands that the target groups differ
from those using double-track

So the target group is Thai's (that dont drive their own car) and tourist that will use HSR vs air travel and other modes of transport. I am not sure, According to the OP, it looks like to break even on investment, there needs to be nearly 50k pax a day or 18.25 mil pax a year traveling one way on the 4 routs. According to TAT there 22 mill tourist came last year.

Tourist going directly to Pattaya or Hua Hin from airport or BKK will most likely just use a van or Taxi, and only use the HSR one way back to BKK. Not sure how many tourist go to Nakhon Rachasima but another short hop from BKK. Chaing Mai rout makes sense because of the distance but only 5 million tourist go there a year (2 mill being foreigners), but again not sure how many tourist go to points between Bkk and Chiang Mai.

The target numbers dont add up all that well, for the nearly Bt 1 trillion investment.

[justathought]

Difficult to say but one thing for sure that the government in most of Asia function for the benefit of the rich

[chainarong]

Thai price Farung price, we will pay top fare.

Does Thai Airways, another government owned transport network, have dual pricing for domestic flights?

The farang paranoia on this forum is frightening at times.

Iet's see, the national parks fee's , my son books us into hotels, as they charge more for Farang , you should see the look on their faces when I walk in. book through a travel agent and they know you are a farang, you will pay more , take out lease on buildings, higher price , been there done all this, Thai's see dollar signs in the farang.

[thomash]

Of course isn't that the reason for it all? Especially the building of it will benefit the rich big time!

[DocN]

There has to be a first time for everything...

[davejones]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

Maybe they ought to get rid of 5 star hotels and the airports as poor people cant afford these either.

The article does say they are upgrading existing trains, but high speed rail is a very good idea imho.

40 billion pound approx seems a decent price, in England theyre talking of building a high speed line from London to Birmingham for 30 billion and its only 160KM. Steel and trains cost the same no matter where you are.

The difference in the UK is that it costs a huge amount to buy up the land needed for the route, and to compensate people who live nearby. Also, workers cost much more in the UK. It's not just the cost of the steel and trains.

[MikeOboe57]

Democrat MP Boonyod Sukthinthai asked why Wip Winyarat, son of prime

minister's policy adviser Pansak Winyarat, was appointed to conduct

feasibility research on the high-speed-rail project even though he has

no engineering background.

Just as a precaution so the predetermined result of the research is not jeopardized. And some nice extra money for a trusted follower.

[Locationthailand]

I don't think the PM or her party care about the feasibility of the project - especially if the Ministers son got a start doing the so called feasibility. What are his qualifications to be able to determine the results? But then this seems to be all about the size of the money pool to be spent and surprise surprise, the cost just doubled! If the incentive was for the real benefit of Thailand, I am sure there would be more practical ways to build this at less costs, however, as always I can only assume this is about how much can be skimmed off the top rather than the financial viability or necessity of the project.

[jonclark]

Train project 'will only benefit the rich'

Thaksin Yingluck did promise in the election campaign, every Thai will be rich. Whats the problem?

I have completely changed my view of Yingluck and PTP and I urge every Dem supporter to do the same. It is so clear that if you support PTP and not the Dems and you are rich you will benifit. So Dem supporters join hands with your 'Elite brothers an sisters and join PTP

[OzMick]

Shouldn't the resources of the country be spent to benefit the many rather than the wealthy few?

Anybody who has ever seen the packed 3rd class carriages on Thai trains should know that these people will NEVER ride HSR. Neither will their vegetables.

[londonthai]

"Bt1.30-Bt3.50 per km"

on the long route, like these 700km to chiang mai, the cheaper bracket will be used, so 700x1.3=930. That is comparable to existing fares on sleepers and saves a half day of travelling. It's also comparable to speed of airplanes, as getting to/from the airport, checking minimum 30 minutes before departure, getting to the gate, boarding, taxing takes a lot of time.

capitalism is about rich getting richer, but this project is building up infrastructure much needed in under invested thai economy.

in the recent debate about high speed rail in the uk there wasn't party division. Case of thai HSR is politicised, just for the sake of an argument. Democrats will not benefit from this debate, as it shows their short-term vision. In the times of deep economical crisis such projects can pull the whole economy through, give much needed employment

[Ricardo]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

"a better use for some of the $$$" (my emphasis in bold)

The problem with this IMO is that merely doubling the key tracks, linking to the borders for the Chinese long-haul freight-trains to Singapore, and adding some more-affordable faster (but not true high-speed) trains would not require so much money, thus the opportunities for corruption & brown-envelopes, while still very great, would not be as massive as under the current plan.

Better to promise the ridiculous high-speed passenger network, which will either run at-a-loss or be prohibitively-expensive to ride, and ignore the Chinese requirements or the SRT's own rather-more-modest already-underway proposal.

[ratcatcher]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

"a better use for some of the $$$" (my emphasis in bold)

The problem with this IMO is that merely doubling the key tracks, linking to the borders for the Chinese long-haul freight-trains to Singapore, and adding some more-affordable faster (but not true high-speed) trains would not require so much money, thus the opportunities for corruption & brown-envelopes, while still very great, would not be as massive as under the current plan.

Better to promise the ridiculous high-speed passenger network, which will either run at-a-loss or be prohibitively-expensive to ride, and ignore the Chinese requirements or the SRT's own rather-more-modest already-underway proposal.

Your mention of Chinese long haul freight trains to Singapore caught my interest. Some months ago the Dawei multi billion baht/dollar port project was the hot topic.

It was presumably being developed in order to make a deep sea port available on the west coast (Andaman Sea) of Peninsula Burma (Myr).

Dawei town is some kms up the Dawei river, but I thought the idea was to by pass Singapore, located at the southern tip of Malaysia at the very congested Singapore Strait.

Since Malaysia has the same narrow gauge system as Thailand, surely the new standard gauge (4'8") Chinese freight connection would be run through Laos or Viet Nam across Thailand entering Burma through Kanchanaburi province.

This Dawei port completely eliminates the need for shipping from the west having to negotiate the Singapore Strait. This is probably something the Singapore government will fight tooth and nail.

Perhaps someone with a more detailed knowledge knows what the situation is on this project at present.

[canuckamuck]

Oh what's the bother, I want to ride the train - once, and then return by plane. So I think they should do it.

[Rich teacher]

Who will build, maintain and serve on these things? The rich?

Ask the workers & vendors in Pattaya, Hua Hin, etc. what they think of an increase in tourism because of HSR.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Rich teacher

[Cats4ever]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

I am not too sure about that. Given the trip to the airport and the time required before check in and the flight, AND then the wait for luggage on arrival followed by the trip to town, I suspect some people might be willing to spend 3-4 hours on a comfortable train as oppposes to 60 - 80 minutes in a plane.

[belg]

i hope there will be an option to put YOUR CAR on the track and go to for example chiang mai, would that not make more sense? save gas, save the planet (a bit)