Thai Govt's Train Project ' Will Only Benefit The Rich'

[Tomtomtom69]

Thai price Farung price, we will pay top fare.

Does Thai Airways, another government owned transport network, have dual pricing for domestic flights?

The farang paranoia on this forum is frightening at times.

No but 90% of their National Parks do and 100% of their hotels do.

What absolute nonsense - but thank you for assisting to prove my point.

Suggest you start to drink decaf.

OZEMADE: National parks do the foreigner pricing thing, hotels definitely DON'T. Where the hell do you people complaining about hotel tariffs being different for Thais and foreigners stay? I have NEVER found a hotel that practices this in Thailand and believe me, I've stayed in a LOT of hotels in Thailand, probably a lot more than your average TV poster. I know that in Myanmar this happens, but they aren't shy about this and you can see their tariffs displayed separately. If it happened in Thailand, there would actually be proof. As there is nothing to substantiate your claim, it must mean that you're wrong. Edited March 31, 2013 by Tomtomtom69

[vijer]

I'm starting a pool, How Long Will it Take to Build the HSR?

I'm putting 500b on 20 years.

And they will spend 8 trillion, not 2 trillion, and the train will only extend half way from BKK to Chang Mai. The Thai's will build massive concourses that can hold thousands of people with only 1 garbage can 2 squat toliets and 10 turnstiles and a lot of stairs and an occasional escalator (moving stairs), and no place to sit while you wait for the HSR that is being delayed because the BiB have decided that they can better run the HSR by radio.

[Geekfreaklover]

The incentive for government to propose and action these megaprojects is easy to understand. It has nothing to do with improving the transportation of Thai people, it has a little bit to do with encouraging the new emerging Asian tourist industry, a fraction to do with moving products, and it has everything to do with borrowing trillions of baht, spreading it about the already rich, and paying the rest back through the taxation of the poor rather than the revenue that won't be realized from the network that probably won't be completed...

Edited March 31, 2013 by Geekfreaklover

[NeverSure]

The incentive for government to propose and action these megaprojects is easy to understand. It has nothing to do with improving the transportation of Thai people, it has a little bit to do with encouraging the new emerging Asian tourist industry, a fraction to do with moving products, and it has everything to do with borrowing trillions of baht, spreading it about the already rich, and paying the rest back through the taxation of the poor rather than the revenue that won't be realized from the network that probably won't be completed...

Good points. Think of all of the very good jobs it would create for the friends and relatives of the powerful and influential. Then those people are in a position to get kickbacks from suppliers and contractors and others.

[Thai at Heart]

Thai price Farung price, we will pay top fare.

Does Thai Airways, another government owned transport network, have dual pricing for domestic flights?

The farang paranoia on this forum is frightening at times.

No but 90% of their National Parks do and 100% of their hotels do.

What absolute nonsense - but thank you for assisting to prove my point.

Suggest you start to drink decaf.

OZEMADE: National parks do the foreigner pricing thing, hotels definitely DON'T. Where the hell do you people complaining about hotel tariffs being different for Thais and foreigners stay? I have NEVER found a hotel that practices this in Thailand and believe me, I've stayed in a LOT of hotels in Thailand, probably a lot more than your average TV poster. I know that in Myanmar this happens, but they aren't shy about this and you can see their tariffs displayed separately. If it happened in Thailand, there would actually be proof. As there is nothing to substantiate your claim, it must mean that you're wrong.

Many hotel promos are limited to Thai residents only, and often advertised as such.

[Ricardo]

Also, what most posters here have failed to see is that this high-speed rail system can not be an insular Thai equivalent of the Japanese Shinkansen or Chinese gaokuai system. Those countries have the financial and technological capability to build such a system - the Thais have neither. So what will happen is that the Thai system will be linked to the Chinese one via Laos to Kunming and the Chinese will provide the trains and the technology. Without the Chinese no high speed train system will be built in Thailand.

And since what the Chinese want is a freight-line, not a high-speed passenger-train, that won't happen either.

What may well happen, and is probably a reasonable idea, is that Thailand will double the old SRT tracks most of the way, there will be a new Thai train with a pointy nose which runs at 100-125 kph with frequent stops at intermediate towns/cities, and a messy attempt at getting more freight onto the rails might emerge, if the truckers & bus-companies allow it to.

But at a cost of US$ 180-billion borrowed with government-guarantees over 50 years.

And lastly a lot of people will retire early to spend more time with their newly-acquired money.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Ricardo

[thaicbr]

Also, what most posters here have failed to see is that this high-speed rail system can not be an insular Thai equivalent of the Japanese Shinkansen or Chinese gaokuai system. Those countries have the financial and technological capability to build such a system - the Thais have neither. So what will happen is that the Thai system will be linked to the Chinese one via Laos to Kunming and the Chinese will provide the trains and the technology. Without the Chinese no high speed train system will be built in Thailand.

And since what the Chinese want is a freight-line, not a high-speed passenger-train, that won't happen either.

What may well happen, and is probably a reasonable idea, is that Thailand will double the old SRT tracks most of the way, there will be a new Thai train with a pointy nose which runs at 100-125 kph with frequent stops at intermediate towns/cities, and a messy attempt at getting more freight onto the rails might emerge, if the truckers & bus-companies allow it to.

But at a cost of US$ 180-billion borrowed with government-guarantees over 50 years.

And lastly a lot of people will retire early to spend more time with their newly-acquired money.

And you can bet your arse that the newly minted will not be travelling on the train to CM they will continue to use Thai airways FREE as they do now.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[maidu]

Lots of good posts here. The only way a HSR would work here is if heavily subsidized by gov't, the same gov't (and their successors) which over-extended itself by over-paying for the pointy trains in the first place. Common folk will continue to take the cheapest mode of transport (buses). Bankokians will care less and less about fresh produce, as they're already subsisting on 95% fabricated MSG-laden or sugar-laden deep-fried foodstuffs, and none complain about it. The 3 or 4 thin slices of cucumber commoners get with their Kao Pot are as close to freshness as they usually get.

[Lakegeneve]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

What thread you been reading.. it had been stated numerous times that it includes dual tracking the existing tracks. What's not clear is what comes first and WHY they need to get such a huge loan NOW for projects that are up to 7 years away from starting let alone completing. Most countries use their yearly budgets and if its a larger infrastructure plan they secure loans in principal after due diligence and on a per project basis. This idea about lumping them all together is pretty much what PT did for the 350 billion flood money. What's happened to that??? Or the allocation of budget for the new car owners scheme that has gone massively over budget because they kept extending it (but at least they have that money because the car makers already paid) but wait do they have the money due to the ever increasing burden of paying for overpriced rice and storing it.

If I was Thai I would want and insist that they upgrade the trains. But High speed train... nope don't need it. A decent modern railway is fast enough.

"that are up to 7 years away from starting"

Wrong!

Dualtracking has already started in some places (Korat and Prachuap) and the rest is projected to start no later than 2014.

As for HST. All 4 lines are to start this year.

Really! Could you quote your source please. With pictures if you have any.

I'm wondering how they can start anything without the funding and environment assessments completed. But if you have source material which clearly show that work has started I will eat humble pie.

Hope you are hungry. My source is Bangkok Post from yesterday (Saturday 30'th). "infrastructurebill sails through"

@rubl. According to the same source all HST-lines should be operational 2018, so don't worry about my age, I'll hang in there for another 5 years.

You might be eating a lot of pie there thaicbr!

Dualtracking

The SRT Dualtracking program has been underway since 2003 when the eastern line to Chachongsao started work. It really kicked off when the Dems became the first govt in 50 yrs to finally put significant money into upgrading the SRT. This is the program schedule (slight recent adjustments not shown) and much has been completed in the last 4 years

HSR

I few things to note. These HSR lines will be expensive, no doubt. However, factor in all the economic benefits when you cost health costs from vehicle pollution and stress, provincial economic stimulus, environmental pollution costs, reduced vehicle accidents, workforce efficiency and flow on effects; the benefits are overwhelming. All of these elements can be costed and should be factored in. Everyone is happy to spend US$5 billion on a new motorway - such as the proposed BKK to Korat one - without much discussion of the consequences but build a HSR line and suddenly it is untenable for some. We can't keep building new roads and highways forever only adding to more congestion, that model doesn't work.

The HSR plans ARE NOT NEW. They have been around since the mid 90s proposed by civil servants in MOT. Successive govts have flirted with the idea but done very little while still allowing the SRT to be underfunded. More recently the Chinese have been looking to expand their trade routes through the west of China. The Dems when they were in power dusted off the previous plans and committed to building a HSR network, Had they won the 2011, the Rayong HSR line would already have commenced construction. PT have adjusted the plans to suit their own poilitical needs.

There WILL BE CORRUPTION. We know how it works here, unfortunately it is not going to change in the near future. Build a footpath and there is corruption. Any large public project has multiple flow on effects for lining peoples pockets. Is the current funding model sustainable? Time will tell. No doubt it is designed to benefit those in power and their corrupt friends. One only has to see the amount being lost on the rice scheme - already reportedly US$6 billion which may grow to $10 billion this year! Which ever party is in power has their snouts in the trough, some just have bigger snouts!

"As for HST. All 4 lines are to start this year."

I can't agree with this. If even the one planned tender for the initial part of the HSR network (85kms) is out by the end of the year as stated, that will be an achievement! If works starts on the initial phases of even 2 lines by 2014 the govt will be doing very well. Generally, timelines and deadlines are very fluid as we have all seen, Treat timelines with much skepticism and only bother with each step of the process, ie. tender period, contract signed, work starts etc...

[Lakegeneve]

I'll quote something I wrote elsewhere as added points; http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/626141-thai-railways-set-eyes-on-dual-track-system/page-3

However, some basic points on the HSR program;

1) HSR will be entirely new lines that are standard gauge built without road crossings for obvious reasons (see post above)

2) Yes there will be corruption in the budget as there is with EVERY SINGLE PROJECT in Thailand. Be it a new highway, building or painting a pedestrian bridge. Just accept that as fact given the highly normalised nature of such in the region.

3) Whatever the construction timetable expect is to slide. Dates always change here, everyone knows that.

4) The HSR lines will be built for 250km operation, so expect operating speeds of around 220-250km. Some are stating 300-350km but this is not currently the plan. Some politicians mention the later figure on occasion but that is about politics.

5) The new Bang Sue Terminal for Intercity trains is finally about to start construction. It will be the terminus for the N, NE & S HSR lines (though still a small chance that the South line will use for Hualumphong depending on the final route that is slected). The Makkasan City Air Terminal will be the terminus for the HSR East/Rayong line which will use the current Airport Line.

6) Most likely the SRT won't run these lines as a new special purpose organisation will be established.

7) Companies from Germany, France, Japan, China and Taiwan have all expressed interest in bidding for the contracts.

7) Everything can & will change. These HSR plans are not new. First proposed in the mid 90s they have been deferred, expanded and changed with each new govt. Plans will change, govts will change, problems will arise. Show me a major project anywhere in the world which is problem free at all stages,

First tender: The current plan is for the first tender to be out in late 2013 (85km fully elevated section from Bang Sue Terminal to Ban Phachi Junction north of Ayuthaya, 35 billion baht, 5 years).

Thereafter, the line to Korat, the Rayong line, lastly the line to Hua Hin.

Chiang Mai HSR line: This will form the initial section of Phase 1 of the Chiang Mai line to P'lok (382km, 112 billion baht to be completed by 2019) http://www.thaihispe.../files/doc9.pdf . Phse 2 to CM to be completed by 2028.

NE HSR line: The first phase of the line to Nong Khai will be to Korat (256km, 92 billion baht, 5 yrs)

http://www.thaihispe...com/update1.php

Rayong HSR line: To be built to Chonburi & Pattaya 1st. Uses 25km of the current airport line, (196km, 72 billion baht, 5 yrs) Note that the Airport line is being extended to DMK (Thus all HSR lines will be connected).

South HSR line: The first part of the south HSR line will be to Hua HIn (189-225km billion baht, 5yrs). Note that the final route of 4 options has not selected thus figures cannot be confirmed. http://www.thaihispe.../file/doc19.pdf

http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/

[maidu]

For several years, up until 2 years ago (Fukushima) Thai officials were talking enthusiastically about building up to 6 nuke reactors. Since Fukushima, they've been less brazen about nuclear. However, with the need for added electric power, if the HSR gets built, expect talk of nuclear to get back on the front burner (pun intended).

Another perspective: Thailand is not a big nor a rich country. It's understandable that its leaders want HSR, as it's an impressive mode of transport (though accessible just to the affluent), yet it's just not feasible in terms of affordability (it will need to be subsidized if/when it's operational). It's like the middle class family which sees the rich family in the mansion down the street get a bentley, so they naturally want to get one also.

[Arkady]

Never mind. The high speed trains will be great for farmers to transport their vegetables to market.

[rice555]

Hello All, both my FIL(86) and MIL(83) have only taken 1 R/Trip train ride,

from Korat out about 15Kms from town and back.

Both have NEVER BEEN to Bangkok.

Are they going to put spitoons for bealnut

chewers on the HST?

We do already have double track in Korat E. station to the Hwy.224

overpass and one set of tracks goes to NK and one to Ubon.

Its 3+ hours to BKK on the A/C bus from here, over 5+hours by open

widow train.

rice555

[Thai at Heart]

Hello All, both my FIL(86) and MIL(83) have only taken 1 R/Trip train ride,

from Korat out about 15Kms from town and back.

Both have NEVER BEEN to Bangkok.

Are they going to put spitoons for bealnut

chewers on the HST?

We do already have double track in Korat E. station to the Hwy.224

overpass and one set of tracks goes to NK and one to Ubon.

Its 3+ hours to BKK on the A/C bus from here, over 5+hours by open

widow train.

rice555

Saying all of this, did you hear how many international companies are planning to build in korat? Can't fly, dangerous by road.

I expect a lot of japanese employees on these trains.

[OzMick]

"However, factor in all the economic benefits when you cost health costs
from vehicle pollution and stress, provincial economic stimulus,
environmental pollution costs, reduced vehicle accidents,
workforce efficiency and flow on effects; the benefits are
overwhelming."

It seems some people are very easily overwhelmed by the airy-fairy ephemeral benefits of what is after all only a passenger train service. How many of these benefits could equally be claimed by a much cheaper upgrade of the existing system?

[Lakegeneve]

"However, factor in all the economic benefits when you cost health costs

from vehicle pollution and stress, provincial economic stimulus,

environmental pollution costs, reduced vehicle accidents,

workforce efficiency and flow on effects; the benefits are

overwhelming."

It seems some people are very easily overwhelmed by the airy-fairy ephemeral benefits of what is after all only a passenger train service. How many of these benefits could equally be claimed by a much cheaper upgrade of the existing system?

Whereas clearly you have no idea how modern transport system evaluation studies take into account most of the other elements listed. None of it is airy fairy, it has been normal standard practice for the last 10-15yrs in the west. Very normal in Oz. You are the one appearing constantly overwhelmed as in you never seem to be able to refer to any relevant facts.

Yes most of the same benefits could also be achieved by upgrading the existing network. However, given that you have bothered to do any basic research on an issue you hold strong views then you again show your ignorance. Had you bothered to do that you would know that the previous SRT plan was to;

1) dual track the whole network - still being implemented,

2) then standardise the network,

3) and then electrify it, was going to take some 30+ years.

However, building a HSR network achieves much of the same in roughly half the time exactly when Thailand has the demand for it. Yes it is going to cost a lot more but that is any new modern transport system in the world. Can you imagine in the mid 90s instead of BTS lines someone saying "oh let's just expand the suburban SRT network and run old trains at slow speeds. That will be much cheaper."

The SRT was allowed to run down into the dysfunctional mess that it is due to 5 decades of under funding. Finally, it is getting some funds to improve but that will take time. An initial HSR network to destinations such as Hua Hin, Pattaya and Korat will be a big money earner. It will get a huge amount of pax to those locations base on current transit patterns.

Money will be wasted, there will be delays, there will be operational & teething problems. There are politics and self interest involved. Wow, like that is really news! All of that is a given.

When you can critique the HSR proposals in some context of the reality of the SRT, transport issues & provide specific facts worthy of an informed and interested observer, then we can have a proper debate. No one is saying the plans are perfect nor that there are not elements which require further improvement.

[OzMick]

"However, factor in all the economic benefits when you cost health costs

from vehicle pollution and stress, provincial economic stimulus,

environmental pollution costs, reduced vehicle accidents,

workforce efficiency and flow on effects; the benefits are

overwhelming."

It seems some people are very easily overwhelmed by the airy-fairy ephemeral benefits of what is after all only a passenger train service. How many of these benefits could equally be claimed by a much cheaper upgrade of the existing system?

Whereas clearly you have no idea how modern transport system evaluation studies take into account most of the other elements listed. None of it is airy fairy, it has been normal standard practice for the last 10-15yrs in the west. Very normal in Oz. You are the one appearing constantly overwhelmed as in you never seem to be able to refer to any relevant facts.

Yes most of the same benefits could also be achieved by upgrading the existing network. However, given that you have bothered to do any basic research on an issue you hold strong views then you again show your ignorance. Had you bothered to do that you would know that the previous SRT plan was to;

1) dual track the whole network - still being implemented,

2) then standardise the network,

3) and then electrify it, was going to take some 30+ years.

However, building a HSR network achieves much of the same in roughly half the time exactly when Thailand has the demand for it. Yes it is going to cost a lot more but that is any new modern transport system in the world. Can you imagine in the mid 90s instead of BTS lines someone saying "oh let's just expand the suburban SRT network and run old trains at slow speeds. That will be much cheaper."

The SRT was allowed to run down into the dysfunctional mess that it is due to 5 decades of under funding. Finally, it is getting some funds to improve but that will take time. An initial HSR network to destinations such as Hua Hin, Pattaya and Korat will be a big money earner. It will get a huge amount of pax to those locations base on current transit patterns.

Money will be wasted, there will be delays, there will be operational & teething problems. There are politics and self interest involved. Wow, like that is really news! All of that is a given.

When you can critique the HSR proposals in some context of the reality of the SRT, transport issues & provide specific facts worthy of an informed and interested observer, then we can have a proper debate. No one is saying the plans are perfect nor that there are not elements which require further improvement.

Why was it going to take 30 years - because of lack of funding. With dual and upgraded tracking (and even electrification, eventually) there will be a large

increase in system speed. Introduction of a few high speed tilt train expresses could make available fast services.

But no, go HSR at billions more, to benefit those rich enough to afford it and who don't like flying, and the rest of the population can carry the ever-increasing debt for generations.

Remember this:

Govt Mulls Pre-Packed Lunch Boxes For High Speed Trains; Sees New Market For Upscale Travelers

[thaicbr]

Lakegeneve... I have seen those before what I was asking is. Have any actually been finished. Its been a year or so since I took the train to Hua Hin.. but nothing was happening then.. I will gladly eat humble pie. Especially if it shows that work could progress without this humungous loan

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[muttley]

Lakegeneve... I have seen those before what I was asking is. Have any actually been finished. Its been a year or so since I took the train to Hua Hin.. but nothing was happening then.. I will gladly eat humble pie. Especially if it shows that work could progress without this humungous loan

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Just out of interest, if the lines have been started (and I'm not doubting it) it would be due to the humungous loan of 1.43 Trillion Baht that the Dems took out in 2009 - strange how nobody mentions that loan, including as it does 800 Billion baht outside the normal fiscal practice (Oops, forgot about that did we, Korn?) http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/06/22/thailand-abhisit-stimulus-idINBKK11397020090622

There is also an interesting cable where Korn admits that an "ancillary" benefit of the above loan and resultant projects

"may have the ancillary benefit of keeping together the governing coalition at least through the end of 2010"

And there I was thinking it was for the benefit of the Thai people.

Edited April 1, 2013 by muttley

[Lakegeneve]

Why was it going to take 30 years - because of lack of funding. With dual and upgraded tracking (and even electrification, eventually) there will be a large

increase in system speed. Introduction of a few high speed tilt train expresses could make available fast services.

But no, go HSR at billions more, to benefit those rich enough to afford it and who don't like flying, and the rest of the population can carry the ever-increasing debt for generations.

Remember this:

Govt Mulls Pre-Packed Lunch Boxes For High Speed Trains; Sees New Market For Upscale Travelers

I can post all sorts of silly puff piece articles which are irrelevant This is Thailand after all, how many silly statements from politicians in govt news agency releases do you really want to read? I could post enough to keep you busy for a few hours. Please deal with the substantive issues and not fluffy wrapping. Not quite sure how linking such an article is meant to make us take you more seriously?

Yes, the 30 year timeframe was primarily due to funding - in fact the MOT in 2009 asked for 1 trillion baht over 10 years to achieve the same outcome. The Dems gave the SRT 176 billion in Dec 2010 for 43 projects over 5 years (excluding HSR). PT has continued that funding. Seemingly you would have been happy with the MOT 1 trillion baht being funded just because it related to the existing network?

However in respect of the 30 year time frame, you also have to take into account that it generall also takes longer to upgrade an existing operational line than is does to build a completely new one. Upgrades are much slower when you have operational trains. (Obviously, specific elements specific for each project determine exact comparisons).

HSR narrow gauge lines even with tilt trains such as the Rocky one in Queensland or the Virgin ones in the UK only do a max of around 160kph. Narrow gauge limits operational speed in a HSR context. The Japanese example is a good one, a narrow gauge country built a standard gauge HSR network (with loads of corruption as well!).

Experience has shown that a 3hr HSR rial journey competes with air travel. Whether one looks at the examples of Paris-Lyon, Madrid to Barca or Tokyo to Osaka (all of which I have personally traveled) they have the overwhelming pax numbers over air. A 220-250kph max HSR standard line to Chaing Mai, NE Isan and Hat Yai gets is close to the 3 hr window. Narrow gauge does not.

You mention debt. The SRT is already some 85 billion in debt. The SRT operational losses for the last 6 years have been;

2007: 8 billion

2008: 10.2 billion

2009: 11.7 billion

2010: 12.4 billion

2011: 13+ billion (TBC)

2012: unavailbale as yet

Taxpayers are currently heavily burdened by an organisation that is a dysfunctional mess and has been beaten and flogged for the last few decades. Only 60% of the SRTs loco are operational, over 50% of its rolling stock is over 40 years old. Only just over 85% of the 4,400km network is double tracked. The Namtok line is so bad that on average is suffers a derailment at least once a week!

The SRT registers some 3000 accidents a year (most minor). However, in the last 6 years accidents just at rail crossings have killed 297 people and injured 979 people! Most of those accidents occur due to idiot Somchai not looking or thinking that he can beat the train but the newtowrk has nearly 2000 official crossings - that is almost a crossing every 2km of track! - and some 562 unauthorised crossings (ie. local make one to cut down distance). A new HSR network will have none!

[Lakegeneve]

Lakegeneve... I have seen those before what I was asking is. Have any actually been finished. Its been a year or so since I took the train to Hua Hin.. but nothing was happening then.. I will gladly eat humble pie. Especially if it shows that work could progress without this humungous loan

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Sorry but I am not exactly clear what you are asking. If it is, has the southern line to Hua Hin been upgrade/double tracked?

From what I understand - not having also taken that trip for some time - is that the Nakhon Pathon to Hua Hin (165km, 19 billion baht) section which is the next section was delayed for some two years due to a slow EIA process. When I posted the double tracking table above I noted that there have been some adjustments since that table. In that table it should have been completed by end of 2014.

As the money for this Hua Hin section will be allocated from the 64% of the 2.2 trillion budget going to rail projects, it now seems that it will not be completed until 2019. (Which is around the same completion date for the HSR rail project to Hua Hin though it should be noted that the final route for that HSR line has not been selected - 4 options. See link above in post #130)

[ginjag]

Who actually said it will only benefit the rich ????

The rich FLY--FLY get it. why would they spend a few hours on a quick train when they are there 1 hour, flight.

The only way it will benefit is that the price to be only just above bus-but lower than Air fares.

What are the bus companies going to do, IF the rail pushes them out----me thinks there is going to be fun and games, not forgetting the road transporters, there will be more white whisky drunk, and unemployment figures will rise drastically, ( but still be shown at % per cent)

[dcutman]

Lakegeneve... I have seen those before what I was asking is. Have any actually been finished. Its been a year or so since I took the train to Hua Hin.. but nothing was happening then.. I will gladly eat humble pie. Especially if it shows that work could progress without this humungous loan

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Just out of interest, if the lines have been started (and I'm not doubting it) it would be due to the humungous loan of 1.43 Trillion Baht that the Dems took out in 2009 - strange how nobody mentions that loan, including as it does 800 Billion baht outside the normal fiscal practice (Oops, forgot about that did we, Korn?) http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/06/22/thailand-abhisit-stimulus-idINBKK11397020090622

There is also an interesting cable where Korn admits that an "ancillary" benefit of the above loan and resultant projects

"may have the ancillary benefit of keeping together the governing coalition at least through the end of 2010"

And there I was thinking it was for the benefit of the Thai people.

You continue to beat this horse to death Mutt.

Not sure if you recall Mutt, 2009 was the height of the global recession and Thailand was suffering greatly from it, just as many other countries were. Thailand like many of those other countries pumped tons of money into the economy to stimulate and prevent further damage.

Now if you could get up to date, and more on topic. Thailand's economy does not need emergency help, and many are saying it is too hot for its own good. Nobody is doubting Thailand infrastructure needs updating, and if there was a feasibility study started when this govt first proposed this HSR (July 2011), it might very well be done today, and the people might just feel a bit better about it. But they haven't, the scope, the routes, and the money figures keep changing, almost daily.

It is foolish to even consider such a project with so little and confusing information.

There is no reason this govt cant do a long term (7 to 10 year budget)

[rubl]

#140 lakegeneve "Only just over 85% of the 4,400km network is double tracked."

I may overlook something here, but if the table provided is only slightly behind schedule it would suggest about 2500 km still to be double tracked. That out of a total of 4400 km is about only 40% done. Is some existing rail already double tracked long time ago, but in a state which requires (major) upgrade?

[ratcatcher]

This from Wiki.

"The SRT has long been popularly perceived by the public as inefficient and resistant to change. Trains are usually late, and most of its equipment is old and poorly maintained. The worst financially performing state enterprise, the SRT consistently operates at a loss despite being endowed with large amounts of property and receiving large government budgets; it reported a preliminary loss of 7.58 billion baht in 2010.^[1] Recurring government attempts at restructuring and/or privatization throughout the 2000s have always been strongly opposed by the union and have not made any progress."

The SRT as stated has huge valuable landholdings on its books.

The Bang Sue yards

The Makkasan depot and yards.

TheChatuchak Market land.

The Sofitel-Centara Grand complex- Lad Prao area.

Just these lands alone are worth hundreds of billions of baht.

SRT is just badly managed, not broke, and affected by huge amounts of corruption. (What else is new?)

[Lakegeneve]

#140 lakegeneve "Only just over 85% of the 4,400km network is double tracked."

I may overlook something here, but if the table provided is only slightly behind schedule it would suggest about 2500 km still to be double tracked. That out of a total of 4400 km is about only 40% done. Is some existing rail already double tracked long time ago, but in a state which requires (major) upgrade?

My bad, completely stuffed that sentence up to give it an opposite meaning! Cheers.

It should have read 'only around 15% of the 4,400km network is double tracked' or 'just over 85% of the network is still single track'. The last solid figure was from late 09 when it was reportedly 93% still single track. I have seen various figures in the last 12-18 months so the 15% is an attempt to arrive at a conservative average based on figures from a year ago. Difficult to get solid facts at times from the SRT when different figures are given by different players.

Even in this MCOT article from 2 weeks with the SRT Gov making a so called 'new' announcement it stated;

Of the 4,000km rail lines in Thailand, only 300km are currently dual track, and the SRT will have to build additional 2,857km of dual track to cover 53 provinces, he said.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/626141-thai-railways-set-eyes-on-dual-track-system/

That would be less than 10% which I believe it is incorrect as it should be a little higher. It could be over 15% now, perhaps even towards 20%. Doubt that it is anywhere near 40%. The double tracking program is a few years behind schedule due to a combo of late EIAs and a change in govt with associated reviews and repackaging of what is essentially the same program. That is why I mentioned that the timelines have changed - until the current funding package is approved it is the best guide we have.

Also, note that the Gov states at the end of the program speeds should reach 90kph - actually 90-100kph - but it goes to show that even at the end of this program sought speeds will be still be slow. An improvement on the current 50-60kph though.

[Lakegeneve]

^ Oh and rubl, congrats on your 10 000th post!!!

[Lakegeneve]

The SRT as stated has huge valuable landholdings on its books.

The Bang Sue yards

The Makkasan depot and yards.

TheChatuchak Market land.

The Sofitel-Centara Grand complex- Lad Prao area.

Just these lands alone are worth hundreds of billions of baht.

SRT is just badly managed, not broke, and affected by huge amounts of corruption. (What else is new?)

A number of problems in relation to SRT land.

Firstly, the SRT does not have a centralised database of its land holdings and thus is unsure exactly how much it owns though it is in the process of conducting an inventory. Said to be just under 250,000 rai or around 400 sq/km - don't quote those figures.

Secondly, many areas of land have been unlawfully leased by local SRT officials without any money going to the SRT. Gradally, illegal businesses are being kicked off SRT land unless they normalise their leases. No word on recovering lost rent though.

Thirdly, the SRT was previously leasing land for peanuts. The Central Latphrao lease was a good example. When it was renewed in 07/08 (?) Central actually started paying market rates for the first time. Some 15-20 times the previous lease rate if I remember correctly. (I believe that CPN is now paying around 1 billion a year - TBC).

Chatuchak market was also a classic. The BMA was only leasing it for 24m baht a year!!! Yet the market was generating nearly a billlion baht in revenue for the BMA. When the renewal came up in late 2011, the BMA first offered 79m baht a year with 15% annual increases. The SRT had done some research and realised it could generate up to 40 billion baht over the next 20 years if it took back the leases. MOT also pushed the SRT which said it wanted a minimum of 420m baht a year from the BMA. BMA refused - having had the cash cow since 1979 - and SRT gave the BMA the finger and thankfully took back the leasing rights and is now earning that nearly 1 billion baht a year.

The SRT has foregone billions and billions in baht by not leasing its land in a competent and professional manner. Put another way, many govt officials and their friends have taken advantage of the SRT's lax & dysfunctional land management framework and made billions and billions of baht for themselves.

[OzMick]

Why was it going to take 30 years - because of lack of funding. With dual and upgraded tracking (and even electrification, eventually) there will be a large

increase in system speed. Introduction of a few high speed tilt train expresses could make available fast services.

But no, go HSR at billions more, to benefit those rich enough to afford it and who don't like flying, and the rest of the population can carry the ever-increasing debt for generations.

Remember this:

Govt Mulls Pre-Packed Lunch Boxes For High Speed Trains; Sees New Market For Upscale Travelers

I can post all sorts of silly puff piece articles which are irrelevant This is Thailand after all, how many silly statements from politicians in govt news agency releases do you really want to read? I could post enough to keep you busy for a few hours. Please deal with the substantive issues and not fluffy wrapping. Not quite sure how linking such an article is meant to make us take you more seriously?

Yes, the 30 year timeframe was primarily due to funding - in fact the MOT in 2009 asked for 1 trillion baht over 10 years to achieve the same outcome. The Dems gave the SRT 176 billion in Dec 2010 for 43 projects over 5 years (excluding HSR). PT has continued that funding. Seemingly you would have been happy with the MOT 1 trillion baht being funded just because it related to the existing network?

However in respect of the 30 year time frame, you also have to take into account that it generall also takes longer to upgrade an existing operational line than is does to build a completely new one. Upgrades are much slower when you have operational trains. (Obviously, specific elements specific for each project determine exact comparisons).

HSR narrow gauge lines even with tilt trains such as the Rocky one in Queensland or the Virgin ones in the UK only do a max of around 160kph. Narrow gauge limits operational speed in a HSR context. The Japanese example is a good one, a narrow gauge country built a standard gauge HSR network (with loads of corruption as well!).

Experience has shown that a 3hr HSR rial journey competes with air travel. Whether one looks at the examples of Paris-Lyon, Madrid to Barca or Tokyo to Osaka (all of which I have personally traveled) they have the overwhelming pax numbers over air. A 220-250kph max HSR standard line to Chaing Mai, NE Isan and Hat Yai gets is close to the 3 hr window. Narrow gauge does not.

You mention debt. The SRT is already some 85 billion in debt. The SRT operational losses for the last 6 years have been;

2007: 8 billion

2008: 10.2 billion

2009: 11.7 billion

2010: 12.4 billion

2011: 13+ billion (TBC)

2012: unavailbale as yet

Taxpayers are currently heavily burdened by an organisation that is a dysfunctional mess and has been beaten and flogged for the last few decades. Only 60% of the SRTs loco are operational, over 50% of its rolling stock is over 40 years old. Only just over 85% of the 4,400km network is double tracked. The Namtok line is so bad that on average is suffers a derailment at least once a week!

The SRT registers some 3000 accidents a year (most minor). However, in the last 6 years accidents just at rail crossings have killed 297 people and injured 979 people! Most of those accidents occur due to idiot Somchai not looking or thinking that he can beat the train but the newtowrk has nearly 2000 official crossings - that is almost a crossing every 2km of track! - and some 562 unauthorised crossings (ie. local make one to cut down distance). A new HSR network will have none!

Your own figures confirm that SRT badly needs a re-organisation, and a huge investment to upgrade its services. Yes, it runs at a loss, as do most railways, but this is compensated by the benefits to the public.

I still see no reason to build at huge expense, a whole new debt-incurring service for the benefit of a very few who have the alternative of air travel. Of those who will carry that debt and losses, the vast majority will never use it because the price of a ticket far outweighs the benefit of saving an hour or two.

"Only 160km/h" could be achieved, compared to the current 50-60 - I call that a vast improvement, and one that will apply (to a lesser extent) to freight as well as passenger services.

Have you read the link re the problems in China? do you think that they couldn't happen here?

[yoshiwara]

They are arguing about what announcements to make. No more.