Do You Consider Bitcoin To Be A Serious Hedging Option?

[Trembly]

Lets recap.

Countries that refuse to use USD in oil or natural gas trading :

• Russia
• China
• Venezuela
• Iran

let's recap... all wrong!

Can you refute this article?

http://www.infowars.com/11-international-agreements-that-are-nails-in-the-coffin-of-the-petrodollar/

i am not wasting time to refute any article which otherwise stats a lot of correct and undeniable facts albeit with highly exaggerated importance. e.g. check total trade Brazil/China and and then compare the figures with the signed swap agreement. and the latter applies to the other mentioned swaps too.

what i said is that the above statement is wrong because of "refuse". best example is Venezuela which still exports the lion share of its "sweet" crude to the U.S. against payment in USD because 99% of Venezuela's external debt is denominated and serviced in USD.

Iran does not "refuse" but is blocked by sanctions to use international banking routes to get paid for its crude.

China does not "refuse" but uses bartering because of the afore-mentioned sanctions against Iran when buying Iranian crude. for Venezuelan crude China has paid in advance billions of US-Dollars.

Russia sells its natural gas to the European Union and accepts of course payment in €UR.

these are the facts, mentioning "refuse" is misleading BS².

My apologies.

So, without debating whether Iran would accept USD given the choice, Iran does not in fact accept USD for it's oil or natural gas.

Venezuela uses USD income for oil to service existing USD debt rather any other form of payment. Some of that USD income has in fact come from China unloading billions of USD (debt notes) of its own.

Would it be complete BS for me to say that it appears that China and Venezuela are doing their best to offload any USD obligations in the most efficacious ways? If so could you please educate me?

Edited May 24, 2013 by Trembly

[Naam]

Venezuela uses USD income for oil to service existing USD debt rather

any other form of payment. Some of that USD income has in fact come

from China unloading billions of USD (debt notes) of its own.

Would it be complete BS for me to say that it appears that China and

Venezuela are doing their best to offload any USD obligations in the

most efficacious ways? If so could you please educate me?

sorry, no offence meant. but the above-mentioned shows clearly that

you have no idea instead come up with assumptions and claims out of

thin air. i will try now to "educate" you even though a wee bit of googling

would have prevented that you are caught "pants down".

-China did not offload any debt notes to pay for Venezuelan crude but

granted total loans of ~$50bb in cash. the late Comandante Chavez

and now Nicolas Maduro have to service a heavy load of debt at

(due to mainly political reasons) at fancy high interest rates. i am

(since more than two decades) substantially invested in Venezuela,

want twice a year fat interest and do not accept "offloaded" debt notes

in lieu of cash.

-that Venezuela accepts or accepted UST as payment for its crude

is utterly ridiculous given the financial status of the country.

Would it be complete BS for me to say...

yes! it would be

.

[Trembly]

Is USD cash not USD debt owed to the Federal Reseve by default?

[Trembly]

Venezuela uses USD income for oil to service existing USD debt rather

any other form of payment. Some of that USD income has in fact come

from China unloading billions of USD (debt notes) of its own.

Would it be complete BS for me to say that it appears that China and

Venezuela are doing their best to offload any USD obligations in the

most efficacious ways? If so could you please educate me?

sorry, no offence meant. but the above-mentioned shows clearly that

you have no idea instead come up with assumptions and claims out of

thin air. i will try now to "educate" you even though a wee bit of googling

would have prevented that you are caught "pants down".

-China did not offload any debt notes to pay for Venezuelan crude but

granted total loans of ~$50bb in cash. the late Comandante Chavez

and now Nicolas Maduro have to service a heavy load of debt at

(due to mainly political reasons) at fancy high interest rates. i am

(since more than two decades) substantially invested in Venezuela,

want twice a year fat interest and do not accept "offloaded" debt notes

in lieu of cash.

-that Venezuela accepts or accepted UST as payment for its crude

is utterly ridiculous given the financial status of the country.

>Would it be complete BS for me to say...

yes! it would be

.

I would have thought that someone like you would already know that you're accepting / buying debt owed to the Federal Reserve every time you accept USD.

So, when the US government wants money, the Treasury Department prints bonds (promissory notes aka debt obligations) and "sells" these to the Federal Reserve (private banking concern), which than "gives" the US government Federal Reserve Notes (tender). Thus the money the US government and thus in turn, the US people and all peoples and nations in the world who hold dollars (and why do you think they push these on the world so much?) are debt instruments owed to the Federal Reserve, by the holders. Thus, sooner or later you must return them, plus a percentage. Of course, to the Federal Reserve, the percentage is better.

But, let us take this one step further, and here is the really scary part. To note, no one's logic ever seems to go this far, so for many, this may be your final Eureka moment, when you figure out just how screwed and owned you really are.

If the only legal tender is the Federal Reserve Note and it must be paid back at its face value plus percent, again, in Federal Reserve Notes, well how do you do it? Let me explain. If the Fed offers you (like a crack dealer) $100 million Federal Reserve Notes and you must pay it back, sooner or later with a 2% add on, thus, let us say, in 1 year, you will owe and must pay $102 million Federal Reserve Notes, well, how do you do it? Simply put, you only have $100 million, where do you get the other $2 million Federal Reserve Notes? You can not print them, you can not mint them, well, you have no choice but to ask the Federal Reserve to print them. Thus you get your $2 million more to pay back the debt, but that itself has a 2% attachment, that again, you must ask the Fed to print and at a percentage and so on into perpetuity....well not really, because in a rather short order, the Fed and its owners will own everything.

Rarely has so brilliant and patient a ponzy scheme been dreamed up than this.

Source : http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/14-09-2010/114921-us_dollar-0/

[Trembly]

Federal Reserve Notes are authorized by Section 16 of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913(codified at 12 U.S.C. § 411) and are issued to the Federal Reserve Banks at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.^[2] The notes are then put into circulation by the Federal Reserve Banks,^[3] at which point they become liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks^[4] and obligations of the United States.^[2]

Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender, with the words "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" printed on each note. (See generally 31 U.S.C. § 5103.) They have replaced United States Notes, which were once issued by the Treasury Department. Federal Reserve Notes are backed by the assets of the Federal Reserve Banks, which serve as collateral under Federal Reserve Act Section 16. These assets are generally Treasury securities which have been purchased by the Federal Reserve through its Federal Open Market Committee in a process called debt monetizing. (See Monetization.) This monetized debt can increase the money supply, either with the issuance of new Federal Reserve Notes or with the creation of debt money (deposits). This increase in the monetary base leads to larger increase in the money supply through the fractional-reserve banking as deposits are lent and re-deposited where they form the basis of further loans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note

Just a freely traded IOU or as I called them earlier, debt notes.

"i am (since more than two decades) substantially invested in Venezuela,

want twice a year fat interest and do not accept "offloaded" debt notes

in lieu of cash."

. . . oops.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Trembly

[Naam]

I would have thought that someone like you would already know that
you're accepting / buying debt owed to the Federal Reserve every time
you accept USD.

feel free to have fun splitting hairs. i have better things in mind

[Eesat]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

[Naam]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

China reserves are presently valued at $ 3.4 trillion but the actual US-Dollar denominated reserves are lower, "only" $ 2.75 trillion which were not generated by bilateral trades with the U.S.

these Dollars were found under a mattress in Beijing

[NeverSure]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

You don't know what reserves are or how they are accumulated.

China has almost as much debt as the US, and it's climbing. Link

The problem is that China doesn't have the economic engine, the technology or the profits to cover its debts. It has 1/2 the GDP, a fraction of the industrial profits, and it can only copy, not create, Western technology. It can only pick up the scraps of the West as copiers or manufacturers for the West.

China is not the shining star some once predicted. China is going belly up. Just watch.

[Naam]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

You don't know what reserves are or how they are accumulated.

China has almost as much debt as the US, and it's climbing. Link

The problem is that China doesn't have the economic engine, the technology or the profits to cover its debts. It has 1/2 the GDP, a fraction of the industrial profits, and it can only copy, not create, Western technology. It can only pick up the scraps of the West as copiers or manufacturers for the West.

China is not the shining star some once predicted. China is going belly up. Just watch.

some former bankers claim to know everything about China's national debt but seem have big problems to translate today's midmarket rate of USD/CN¥ 6.1229 into US-Dollars.

the debt clock shows CN¥ 14.604 trn which equals USD 2.385 trn = "almost as much debt as the U.S. debt..." of USD 16.836 trn ?

[dave111223]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

You don't know what reserves are or how they are accumulated.

China has almost as much debt as the US, and it's climbing. Link

The problem is that China doesn't have the economic engine, the technology or the profits to cover its debts. It has 1/2 the GDP, a fraction of the industrial profits, and it can only copy, not create, Western technology. It can only pick up the scraps of the West as copiers or manufacturers for the West.

China is not the shining star some once predicted. China is going belly up. Just watch.

The link you sent shows China having a 39.88% Debt to GDP

It shows USA having a 106.10% Debt to GDP...

And yet China is in almost as much debt?

(US Debt to GDP is somewhere in between Ireland and Greece)

Edited May 27, 2013 by dave111223

[NeverSure]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

You don't know what reserves are or how they are accumulated.

China has almost as much debt as the US, and it's climbing. Link

The problem is that China doesn't have the economic engine, the technology or the profits to cover its debts. It has 1/2 the GDP, a fraction of the industrial profits, and it can only copy, not create, Western technology. It can only pick up the scraps of the West as copiers or manufacturers for the West.

China is not the shining star some once predicted. China is going belly up. Just watch.

The link you sent shows China having a 39.88% Debt to GDP

It shows USA having a 106.10% Debt to GDP...

And yet China is in almost as much debt?

(US Debt to GDP is somewhere in between Ireland and Greece)

I'm sorry. I had the wrong link on my clipboard. China is communist and unaudited. No one knows for sure. The US estimate is between 80 and 87%. Link The difference is that the US has the innovation and high profits, natural resources, tech innovation and engine to drive it forward. So do other Western countries like the UK, Germany and Canada.

China simply has nothing. They don't develop, they copy or manufacture for someone else. They don't have oil. They don't have enough good farmland. What they have is 1.3 billion people to support under a communist system.

"China is in much worse shape than previously thought. On paper, China’s debt to GDP ratio is under 20 percent, making Beijing a paragon of fiscal virtue compared with profligate Western governments.

However, if we factor in various government obligations that are typically counted as public debt, the picture doesn’t look pretty for China. Once local government debts, costs of re-capitalizing state-owned banks, bonds issued by state-owned banks, and railway bonds are included, China’s total debt amounts to 70 to 80 percent of GDP, roughly the level of public debt in the United States and the United Kingdom.

Since most of China’s debt has been borrowed in the last decade, China is on an unsustainable trajectory at the current rate of debt accumulation, particularly when economic growth slows down, as it’s expected to do in the coming decade." Link

[Naam]

"Countries that refuse to use USD in bilateral trade :

• China - Japan
• China - Russia
• China - Australia

Trade between these countries must only be worth a pittance in global terms then, according to your rationale."

So do you know who is the biggest holder of US Dollar reserves,currently around USD $3 Trillion if I'm not mistaken?

China!

You don't know what reserves are or how they are accumulated.

China has almost as much debt as the US, and it's climbing. Link

The problem is that China doesn't have the economic engine, the technology or the profits to cover its debts. It has 1/2 the GDP, a fraction of the industrial profits, and it can only copy, not create, Western technology. It can only pick up the scraps of the West as copiers or manufacturers for the West.

China is not the shining star some once predicted. China is going belly up. Just watch.

The link you sent shows China having a 39.88% Debt to GDP

It shows USA having a 106.10% Debt to GDP...

And yet China is in almost as much debt?

(US Debt to GDP is somewhere in between Ireland and Greece)

I'm sorry. I had the wrong link on my clipboard. China is communist and unaudited. No one knows for sure. The US estimate is between 80 and 87%. Link The difference is that the US has the innovation and high profits, natural resources, tech innovation and engine to drive it forward. So do other Western countries like the UK, Germany and Canada.

China simply has nothing. They don't develop, they copy or manufacture for someone else. They don't have oil. They don't have enough good farmland. What they have is 1.3 billion people to support under a communist system.

"China is in much worse shape than previously thought. On paper, China’s debt to GDP ratio is under 20 percent, making Beijing a paragon of fiscal virtue compared with profligate Western governments.

However, if we factor in various government obligations that are typically counted as public debt, the picture doesn’t look pretty for China. Once local government debts, costs of re-capitalizing state-owned banks, bonds issued by state-owned banks, and railway bonds are included, China’s total debt amounts to 70 to 80 percent of GDP, roughly the level of public debt in the United States and the United Kingdom.

Since most of China’s debt has been borrowed in the last decade, China is on an unsustainable trajectory at the current rate of debt accumulation, particularly when economic growth slows down, as it’s expected to do in the coming decade." Link

yada yada yakety-yak. we all make mistakes. but when we make mistakes an "oops!" or a "sorry" does suffice. writing an essay to divert is the strategy of weak people. especially when the essay contains macroeconomic nonsense like debt/gdp ratio.

note: debt cannot be serviced with gdp. debt can only be serviced with revenue or in the case of the United States by issuing new debt. the ratio of U.S. revenue:debt was in 2010 a miniscule 14%. everybody knows that this ratio has substantially deteriorated with accumulated new debt and the economy still stumbling. and everybody is aware that any company showing that ratio is bankrupt.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Naam

[mccw]

Sorry neversure but it seems you've got preconceived ideas, based around love of the west and belief in its invention, innovation and such, and then find facts to back up your view rather than assessing the evidence and then reaching a conclusion. The debt picture that naam points out is clear in this regard. Same goes for the Asian story, you start out with the theory they are nothing but copiers with no merit and then set out looking for ways to rubbish their economies but more often than not the data can not match up to your pre conceived starting point. If you try adding in off book local gov debt etc for china then you must do the same the otherway also which sends USA in to total basket case picture.

[RogueLeader]

Sorry neversure but it seems you've got preconceived ideas, based around love of the west and belief in its invention, innovation and such, and then find facts to back up your view rather than assessing the evidence and then reaching a conclusion. The debt picture that naam points out is clear in this regard. Same goes for the Asian story, you start out with the theory they are nothing but copiers with no merit and then set out looking for ways to rubbish their economies but more often than not the data can not match up to your pre conceived starting point. If you try adding in off book local gov debt etc for china then you must do the same the otherway also which sends USA in to total basket case picture.

I don't think Asians are 'copiers with no merit' but I do think that - with Korea as a very notable exception - innovation is far less important or evident in Asia - particularly India and China than it is in the United States, Britain or Israel (a country currently bursting at the seams with ideas and startups). I think that the reasons for this are related to rigid social structure, caste systems, lack of freedom of speech and expression and corruption and patronage networks. Indian education in particular has historically been plagued with rote learning and nepotism for obvious historical reasons.

Edited May 27, 2013 by RogueLeader

[mccw]

"""""The United States government has shut down a digital currency website and jailed its executives for allegedly operating the largest money laundering scheme ever, considered by some to be PayPal for criminals.

Costa Rica-based Liberty Reserve has been seized by authorities in the US following the unsealing of a federal grand jury indictment Tuesday that charged the website and its administrators with conspiracy to commit money laundering and conspiracy to operate an unlicensed money transmitting business by providing a means of channeling a currency without registering in the US. Law enforcement agencies in 17 countries assisted with the investigation.

In the complaint, Manhattan Attorney Preet Bharara said Liberty Reserve was structured as a criminal business venture, one designed to help criminals conduct illegal transactions and launder the proceeds of their crimes.

Its existence was based on a criminal business model, Bharara added at a Tuesday press conference.

Since 2006, Liberty Reserve has served as a portal for Internet customers to make anonymous financial transitions on the Web, but investigators say that service thrived on and encouraged illegal activity. Under the guise of a currency transferring site, authorities allege the executives of Liberty Reserve laundered billions of dollars and facilitated global criminal conduct.

This was really PayPal for criminals, a senior law enforcement official told the New York Times, equating Liberty Reserve as a shadow banking system for criminal conduct that was able to facilitate all sorts of criminal conduct that would not otherwise happen.

Liberty Reserve allowed users to pay for goods and services using a digital currency that could not be traced back to a consumer such as with a credit card by allowing customers to create accounts using only a name, email address and date of birthday. Because the company did not verify the identity of its users, accounts could be created in any name. In exchange, the company took one percent for each transaction and for an additional 75 cents offered to hide a users account number.

This, allege investigators, allowed Liberty Reserve to become in a matter of just a few years the international "financial hub" for identity theft, credit-card fraud, hacking, child pornography and narcotics trafficking.

"The defendants deliberately attracted and maintained a customer base of criminals by making financial activity on Liberty Reserve anonymous and untraceable," the indictment said.

An estimate one million users around the world have used the site for 51 million illicit transactions at a rate of more than 12 million transactions each year, authorities claim. In all, the site is accused of laundering over $6 billion.

Liberty Reserves website went offline last Thursday and its main homepage was replaced with a Department of Justice notice that the United States Global Illicit Financial Team, a previously unknown association compromised of the US Secret Service, the Treasury and the Department of Homeland Security, had seized the site.

Liberty Reserves virtual currency has become a preferred method of payment on websites dedicated to the promotion and facilitation of illicit web-based activity, including identity fraud, credit-card theft, online scams and dissemination of computer malware, the Treasury said in the statement that followed.

Arthur Budovsky, Liberty Reserves founder, was arrested Friday in Spain on suspicion of money laundering. Four days later the indictment was unsealed and Bharara then made his remarks about the investigation.

Budovsky had previously operated a similar exchange site, GoldAge, but had that operation shut down in 2006 after being charged by American officials with operating an illegal financial services business. He then fled to Costa Rica while serving probation for his felony conviction, renounced his US citizenship and registered Liberty Reserve. When word of an investigation surfaced in 2011, Budovsky told authorities he shut-down Libertys

Costa Rican operations. According to the indictment, though, the company actually continued to function and funds were cycled through a number of shell companies across the globe.

Security researcher Brian Krebs wrote on his blog Tuesday that the indictment has the potential to cause a major upheaval in the cybercrime economy. The charges against Liberty Reserve come just days after Mt. Gox, the biggest name in the Bitcoin cryptocurrency, had its assets seized by the federal government. The US Department of Homeland Security intervened in Mt. Goxs operations after a federal judge signed a warrant for the website on May 14 on suspicion of it being an unlicensed money transfer business, also because they failed to register in

the US. Liberty Reserve did not use Bitcoin in its transactions, instead relying on its own digital currency, the LR.

Authorities add Liberty Reserve co-founder, Vladimir Kats, was arrested in Brooklyn, New York as part of the complaint. At least three others have been arrested at this time, including one other man in Brooklyn and another in Costa Rica.

"""""

-rt

[rsokolowski]

The short answer for me is no.

A good general rule of thumb for investing (or hedging) is if you cannot figure out how a business works or what it produces do not invest money it it. I am sure that people will make money in bitcoin, but I can't figure out exactly how this scheme works so it will not be me that is making (or losing) money with bitcoin.

[dave111223]

Things are starting to ramp up.

Shows why it's so important to have a decentralized virtual currency, as a opposed to a centralized virtual currency (such as Liberty Reserved) which will always be stamped out by governments (because of "Terrorism" and "Child Porn").

[Naam]

Things are starting to ramp up.

Shows why it's so important to have a decentralized virtual currency, as a opposed to a centralized virtual currency (such as Liberty Reserved) which will always be stamped out by governments (because of "Terrorism" and "Child Porn").

that's the fate of Bitcoin too Dave. it is only a matter of time.

[yoshiwara]

The short answer for me is no.

A good general rule of thumb for investing (or hedging) is if you cannot figure out how a business works or what it produces do not invest money it it. I am sure that people will make money in bitcoin, but I can't figure out exactly how this scheme works so it will not be me that is making (or losing) money with bitcoin.

A chartist recently explained to me that he couldn't care less how a company works or what it produces. What he cared about was the candlestick alignments. On that he made his trades.

[dave111223]

Things are starting to ramp up.

Shows why it's so important to have a decentralized virtual currency, as a opposed to a centralized virtual currency (such as Liberty Reserved) which will always be stamped out by governments (because of "Terrorism" and "Child Porn").

that's the fate of Bitcoin too Dave. it is only a matter of time.

It's impossible for governments to stamp out Bitcoin itself (without destroying all computers, internet, networks etc... which would destroy our entire way of life anyway).

Of course they can target business using, accepting, exchanging, handle bitcoins, but that cannot be compared to stamping out a centralized currency, all they had to do was seize some bank accounts, seize a domain, arrest 5 people and poof Liberty Reserve currency no longer exists.

With Bitcoin governments have the power to reduce it's value, but they do not have the power to reduce it's value to zero. With centralized currencies they have the power to go to zero.

Edited May 29, 2013 by dave111223

[Naam]

With Bitcoin governments have the power to reduce it's value, but they
do not have the power to reduce it's value to zero. With centralized
currencies they have the power to go to zero.

i agree. but just causing some problems will have a big negative impact

on Bitcoin value and trading volume. whether it is Homeland Security,

anti drug agencies or the various national taxmen. they all consider

Bitcoin to be the enemy. and there will be strong and concerted efforts

to make life miserable for Bitcoin users.

[dave111223]

With Bitcoin governments have the power to reduce it's value, but they

do not have the power to reduce it's value to zero. With centralized

currencies they have the power to go to zero.

i agree. but just causing some problems will have a big negative impact

on Bitcoin value and trading volume. whether it is Homeland Security,

anti drug agencies or the various national taxmen. they all consider

Bitcoin to be the enemy. and there will be strong and concerted efforts

to make life miserable for Bitcoin users.

But at the end of the day, what is really going to chaff their asses, is that it doesn't matter what they do to the price of bitcoins. Even if they managed to push the value of 1 Bitcoin down to $0.01, at some point they'd run out of pushing power and the value would stabilize and even at that new $0.01 value people would be able to used Bitcoin to transfer value across the globe totally unchecked.

Edited May 29, 2013 by dave111223

[Naam]

With Bitcoin governments have the power to reduce it's value, but they

do not have the power to reduce it's value to zero. With centralized

currencies they have the power to go to zero.

i agree. but just causing some problems will have a big negative impact

on Bitcoin value and trading volume. whether it is Homeland Security,

anti drug agencies or the various national taxmen. they all consider

Bitcoin to be the enemy. and there will be strong and concerted efforts

to make life miserable for Bitcoin users.

But at the end of the day, what is really going to chaff their asses, is that it doesn't matter what they do to the price of bitcoins. Even if they managed to push the value of 1 Bitcoin down to $0.01, at some point they'd run out of pushing power and the value would stabilize and even at that new $0.01 value people would be able to used Bitcoin to transfer value across the globe totally unchecked.

apropos "pushing power" Dave. i have a feeling you are not aware what is presently going on a global scale and exponentially increasing since only a few weeks as far as tax evasion and especially money laundering is concerned.

tax havens are collapsing and falling like dominoes. i'm not talking about some obscure islands in the Caribic or South Pacific but sovereign countries with reputable jurisdictions which play major roles in global finance traffic such as Switzerland, Luxembourg and recently Singapore. money laundering seems to be a more important issues for "the powers" than terroristic activities.

if i were a gambler i would bet 100:1 that in a few years time Bitcoins will only exist as an essay in Wikipedia and the like.

[dave111223]

With Bitcoin governments have the power to reduce it's value, but they

do not have the power to reduce it's value to zero. With centralized

currencies they have the power to go to zero.

i agree. but just causing some problems will have a big negative impact

on Bitcoin value and trading volume. whether it is Homeland Security,

anti drug agencies or the various national taxmen. they all consider

Bitcoin to be the enemy. and there will be strong and concerted efforts

to make life miserable for Bitcoin users.

But at the end of the day, what is really going to chaff their asses, is that it doesn't matter what they do to the price of bitcoins. Even if they managed to push the value of 1 Bitcoin down to $0.01, at some point they'd run out of pushing power and the value would stabilize and even at that new $0.01 value people would be able to used Bitcoin to transfer value across the globe totally unchecked.

apropos "pushing power" Dave. i have a feeling you are not aware what is presently going on a global scale and exponentially increasing since only a few weeks as far as tax evasion and especially money laundering is concerned.

tax havens are collapsing and falling like dominoes. i'm not talking about some obscure islands in the Caribic or South Pacific but sovereign countries with reputable jurisdictions which play major roles in global finance traffic such as Switzerland, Luxembourg and recently Singapore. money laundering seems to be a more important issues for "the powers" than terroristic activities.

if i were a gambler i would bet 100:1 that in a few years time Bitcoins will only exist as an essay in Wikipedia and the like.

Lucky your not a gambler then or you'd be skint; I'd take your bet all day: http://betsofbitco.in/

And what I mean is that even if they were to totally crackdown on Bitcoin; ie Marines running through millions "users" houses and shooting them on site and raping the cat while the dog watches etc...this would certainly drive the value of bitcoins down very low, but there would still be some criminal element that were still able to use it to transfer value unchecked across the world. This element are already exposed to the door kicking brigade, so the user of Bitcoin would no add new additional risk to their activities, as such Bitcoin would still have some value.

Edited May 29, 2013 by dave111223

[Naam]

what sense does "unchecked value transfer" make when e.g. upload is blocked? to the best of my knowledge you need fungible values, id est "fiat money" to buy Bitcoins. of course you can buy available Bits if you find a counterparty that accepts your bag of rice and transfers the Bit counter value to your account. but without the possibility to change afore-mentioned fungible values it will be a lame game.

p.s. i refuse to comment on the silly method to create Bitcoins with processor chips. that option alone should raise flags and ring alarm bells in a brain that is capable of logical thinking.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The just shut down Liberty Reserve which was the 'Go To' money laundering/crime digital currency.

http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/28/18560809-feds-shut-down-financial-hub-of-the-cyber-crime-world?lite

This should funnel a lot of those folks into Bit Coin. Might be good for a while until it's seen as a crime facilitator.

[Maestro]

28 May 2013 Last updated at 16:47 GMT
US prosecutes '$6bn money-laundering hub'

The Liberty Reserve digital money service that was shut down laundered more than $6bn (£4bn) in criminal cash, US authorities have said.

Weekend police raids in 17 countries scooped up Liberty Reserve's owners, operators and its computer hardware.

The Department of Justice said it was the "largest international money-laundering prosecution in history".

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22686777

-- BBC 2013-05-26

[Naam]

The world’s biggest Bitcoin exchange Mt. Gox will no longer accept anonymous accounts – the company is determined not to end up the next target of US secret service action.

The Japanese exchange, which claims 80 per cent of all Bitcoin trades, said it would continue to allow Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals but any currency transaction will need ID checks.

The decision will send shockwaves through the bitcoin community which has so far prided itself on protecting anonymity and not co-operating with any government agencies.

http://www.coindesk.com/mt-gox-bans-anonymous-currency-deals/

step 1!

to be continued...

[farang000999]

Next step is that the bit bugs will say that this is actually a great thing because it legitimizes bit coin while shaking out the speculative illegal money launders. It might hurt bit coin in the short term but long term it is super bullish and as the price of bit coin falls lower and lower it is great news because of the buying opportunity.