At What Point Isn't Corruption Not "charming" Anymore ?

[soi41]

I guess, that most of us have paid a "fine" directly to the BIB at the roadside. And if you was in the wrong, it is cheaper, convenient and timesaving!

Even people, who in principle are against corruption, (aren't we all?), would probably do that. After all it is a small amount and doing it this way, serves our own purpose.

On the other end of the scale, we have the 2 trillion infrastructure loan, that Phea Thai is steamrolling through the parliament at the moment. We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in the wrong pockets. Which most us is not acceptable, simply due to the big amounts we are talking about.

So 200 baht to the BIB is okay, Then at what level or amount is it more than just an "exotic" part of everyday life in Thailand ?

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in
the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the
big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

[richard_smith237]

When it doesn't work directly in our favour....

[theblether]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

[infinity11]

Corruption rules the world.

Some places more than others?

FWIW Denmark got ranked the lowest one year.

[bkkgriz]

Ok, I will bite. Naam is right that it is none of our business and not our home so there is not much we can do about it. But if you are asking what effect does corruption have on society. I think that any corruption is not a positive thing for society. Yes, if you run a red light, or speed and get caught it seems great to only pay a few baht instead of the real fine. However, isn't it frustrating when you have done nothing wrong and you get pulled over because the Colonel needs some cash. We can all see how corruption effects the roads we have to travel on here in Thailand. The roads are filled with people with no regard for the law or other people on the road.

A society that accepts small corruption will accept some a little bigger, and then a little bigger until you have endemic corruption at every level. In my mind, all corruption is a drag on society. I puts people in danger. Maybe the construction company sells some of its rebar to save money. I have heard of that happening here. Maybe a student doesn't know all he or she should because they paid their way through school. Great for the student, but what if that is your doctor.

Sorry, I think corruption is not charming on any level. Whether it is my culture or some other culture.

[soi41]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

A cheap shot at a not native speaker from the "postmaster" himself !

I know the topic headline is not good English, but can't edit it! Mods feel free to do it.

[Gsxrnz]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

I agree - I don't pay taxes here (other than VAT) so why should I have any right to criticise or praise what is done with Thai government funds. I get to use the roads, the infrastructure (no wisecracks please), and yet I hardly contribute a cent towards the maintenance or capital cost of that infrastructure.

I will say that "corruption" is endemic in Asia, and has been for thousands of years, long before we westerners really had any real culture. (I'm talking post Roman Conquest here.) It's a way of life in Asia, and let's face it corruption was endemic in most western cultures/governments until the late 19th or early 20th century.

However, if you do pay significant taxes in Thailand then I respect your right to have an opinion on government corruption.

As to the quaintness of low-level corruption by the BIB at the roadside and made several posts about my experiences on TV. I've politely argued with them several times and got away with it, but if I'm in the wrong then I happily pay the 200 baht rather than get my licence confiscated and all the drama that goes with it. I might offer my expired credit card next time and see if gets a laugh and a free pass!

[CharlieH]

For me, my penny worth, its when it effects more than the individual, yes it can be convenient etc one on one to get something you need or to get out of a situation.

But when it effects an entire school, a community, a province or ultimately the whole country then thats when its unfair and in my opinion that level of corruption and manipulation is very wrong.

As someone else said, its not our country, we cannot vote etc, but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just be very careful where and to who you voice your opinion.

Edited April 21, 2013 by CharlieH

[apetley]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

It is my business when some official refuses to do what they are paid to do and demands money from me before they will do it.

I "bitched" and something was done so you can effect change.

[Naam]

I agree - I don't pay taxes here (other than VAT) so why should I have
any right to criticise or praise what is done with Thai government
funds. I get to use the roads, the infrastructure (no wisecracks
please), and yet I hardly contribute a cent towards the maintenance or
capital cost of that infrastructure.

I will say that "corruption" is endemic in Asia, and has been for
thousands of years, long before we westerners really had any real
culture. (I'm talking post Roman Conquest here.) It's a way of life in
Asia, and let's face it corruption was endemic in most western
cultures/governments until the late 19th or early 20th century.

i'd like to add that corruption is not limited to Asia but exists on a global

scale. the only difference is the level of corruption.

many rainy seasons ago i took over a rather big industrial project (under

construction) in Nigeria. nothing would have worked without me adapting

to "set and accepted local standards" which (for a newbie like me), were

nothing but hair raising plain theft, fraud and embezzlement. no container

was cleared, no foreign currency allocated, no work permit approved

without greasing palms.

on a lighter side... a couple of years later, the plant being operational, i

added to the agenda of a board meeting "review of CEO's remuneration".

during the meeting i asked politely for said review by pointing to my contract

which contained the clause "remuneration to be increased in line with

domestic inflation rate". after a minute or so silence and another couple of

minutes whispering and yakking in tribal language there was roaring laughter

and the company secretary was instructed by the chairman to note "motion

to increase CEO remuneration by 20% unanimously approved."

when i asked the secretary (a lawyer) later what the laughter was all about

he grinned broadly and explained that i was considered to be an honest

dummy² because anybody in my position could siphon per month a multiple

of the increase i was awarded per annum.

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

It is my business when some official refuses to do what they are paid to do and demands money from me before they will do it.

I "bitched" and something was done so you can effect change.

you bitched and affected the result of one single, most probably miniscule, corruption demand. it had however no effect at all as far as the daily millions of corruption cases are concerned.

[thequietman]

Its not charming anymore when a high rise building that clearly wasn't in line with health and safety burns to the ground with all occupants dead because the fire officers hand was greased.

Its not charming when the guy they let go who was drunk because he was hi-so, wipes out a whole family.

Its not charming when the pharmaceutical companies here put poison into the tablets just to make a buck.

Its not charming anymore when a mother has to put her pram on the road with her new born infant inside because she can't walk on the pavement.

Its not charming anymore when money substitutes people at every opportunity.

Its not charming anymore. Full-stop.

[Keith67]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

The op did in no way say it was wrong or invite other members to make a stand against anything that happens in our "host" country, he simply asked what others might think, this is neither derogatory to the country or the people in it.

[theblether]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

A cheap shot at a not native speaker from the "postmaster" himself !

I know the topic headline is not good English, but can't edit it! Mods feel free to do it.

If you knew it was poor then why did you write it? Don't be pretending that your some kind of newcomer to the language, we've seen plenty of examples of your fine grasp of English when you like to denigrate people.

At Keith67..........the OP shall reap as he sows.

[Keith67]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

A cheap shot at a not native speaker from the "postmaster" himself !

I know the topic headline is not good English, but can't edit it! Mods feel free to do it.

If you knew it was poor then why did you write it? Don't be pretending that your some kind of newcomer to the language, we've seen plenty of examples of your fine grasp of English when you like to denigrate people.

At Keith67..........the OP shall reap as he sows.

I don't know anything about the OP all i was saying that on

an open forum like this as long as the topic and comments are not derogatory to the

country or people in it, i see no problem with giving opinions, realistically

you could look at most if not all topics with the thought of not being able to

change anything so it's not worth talking about, it would be a pretty uninspiring

forum though

.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Keith67

[nattydread]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

comments like this make me laugh especially when the same poster and others who quote the same right on BS would probably be shouting at the top of his voice to defend the right of immigrants in their own country of origin to have their say.......hypocrisy at its finest

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

The op did in no way say it was wrong or invite other members to make a stand against anything that happens in our "host" country, he simply asked what others might think, this is neither derogatory to the country or the people in it.

Thaivisa is swamped since years with "simple questions" which, on the surface, are not expressis verbis derogatory. i said what i had and wanted to say and don't need any of your lectures.

[Payboy]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

There may be a very long sentence for a missing full stop, though.

[GuestHouse]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

This seemingly passive approach has no foundation in reality and denies the fact that social norms are fluid, they change with society.

Merely by arriving in Thailand and interacting with Thais we each of us have an impact, miniscule yes but an impact all the same.

There is an ongoing social discourse in Thailand on the subject of corruption, paying a backhander reinforces norms of corruption, joining the discourse changes societies views.

[asupeartea]

When you have been screwed more times than you can count and you don't have a local woman who will buffer you from it.

[Scully]

The proper system for a driving offence is for your license to be taken to the areas police station. Here you pay a fine and get your license back, the BIB who nabbed you gets his cut, you will get an official piece of paper and can continue to carry out the same driving offence all day as you have your piece of paper.

We pay the fine as a back hander to stop the hassle of going down to the station, it's still not charming.

Having known young girls pay fines through sexual favours for the BIB, definately not charming.

The topic title should swap the word charming with bearable, but hey it's not my OP.

[comserve]

Has anyone experienced getting personal effects through customs.

This happened to me a couple of years ago. We (my wife & myself) arrived at the customs at the point of entry. We were immediately accosted by a woman who insisted on helping us through customs. At first I resisted but then accepted her offer (to my good fortune). She knew where to go, what papers to fill in, what officials to bribe to get priority service etc, etc.

In the end her services were invaluable and we got our goods cleared in a couple of hours. I understand that if we do not "employ" such a person, clearing customs could take days & much frustration.

In the end she did not charge very much & all were very grateful.

[Keith67]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

The op did in no way say it was wrong or invite other members to make a stand against anything that happens in our "host" country, he simply asked what others might think, this is neither derogatory to the country or the people in it.

Thaivisa is swamped since years with "simple questions" which, on the surface, are not expressis verbis derogatory. i said what i had and wanted to say and don't need any of your lectures.

Forums are based on normal people having repeat conversations and disscussions on everyday topics and events, just because you have made in excess of 22,000 posts does not give you the right to berate or judge other members for their opinion or choice of topic, and if i want to comment on a post you make or anybody else for that matter i will, if you don't like it block me, sign out or just crawl back under your stone.

[Andre0720]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

Well, it is the business of the Thai people.

And 62% of the Thai people are for it,

And they think it starts losing its charm when they do not get a benefit from it.

Perhaps when the benefit is only for the few up there, who do not care about the Thai people...the 'mai sohn jai' ones...

[robblok]

It isnt charming anymore when you become the victim of it, like someone important DUI killed one of your relatives and got off because of money, or when you want to build something and they will let you wait for ages unless you grease some palms.

Actually corruption is never charming as you are almost always screwing someone over. You drink and drive.. you get off think hey that was easy do it again and kill someone...

A official agrees to low safety standards in a club (santika anyone) and people get killed. When you have a club your thinking god so easy corruption i don't even ave to do anything about safety.. You got a nice house your happy you can build all you like without zoning permits.. untill your neighbor starts a karaoke bar and has paid the police off.

Laws are there for a reason (agreed not all laws are sensible) but if they can be bought then there is no point in laws neither do any labels mean a thing nor do checklists mean a thing as all is available for corruption.

If the law is so bad then change the law corruption is not needed for it.

As for the we can't change it.. he is right but we can expose it there are plenty of Thais who don't like it either.

Edited April 22, 2013 by robblok

[easyozzi]

Corruption is a worldwide disease and it happens everywhere to varying degrees, it will take generations to eradicate (if ever) although steps are being made through the business sectors in various countries.

[hansnl]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

A cheap shot at a not native speaker from the "postmaster" himself !

I know the topic headline is not good English, but can't edit it! Mods feel free to do it.

Cheap shot indeed.

Can I wonder how many languages the postmasters speaks?

[Markaew]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

It's our business when it affects us.

[Markaew]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

A cheap shot at a not native speaker from the "postmaster" himself !

I know the topic headline is not good English, but can't edit it! Mods feel free to do it.

If you are going to have a thin skin you should consider posting elsewhere. Attacks come freely here.