At What Point Isn't Corruption Not "charming" Anymore ?

[NoshowJones]

Has anyone experienced getting personal effects through customs.

This happened to me a couple of years ago. We (my wife & myself) arrived at the customs at the point of entry. We were immediately accosted by a woman who insisted on helping us through customs. At first I resisted but then accepted her offer (to my good fortune). She knew where to go, what papers to fill in, what officials to bribe to get priority service etc, etc.

In the end her services were invaluable and we got our goods cleared in a couple of hours. I understand that if we do not "employ" such a person, clearing customs could take days & much frustration.

In the end she did not charge very much & all were very grateful.

Yes, I can understand that.

[Tatsujin]

Simple answer . . . "when in Rome" . . . etc etc

[theblether]

I hope the BiB never introduce fines for grammar

It's grammer isn't it?

Well spotted......I was waiting for someone to pick that up. You've really upset the OP now

[Keith67]

A pay off would not be offered for the offence you stated as a far larger sum of money would be gained through the legal chanels, i.e. payments to the family plus fines and the fact a conviction for a more serious crime was achieved.

Tell me, have you ever been to Thailand ?

Only for the last 9 years and you?

Ok so you want to prove me wrong i can live with being wrong, how many farangs do you know that have killed someone whilst driving under the influence and paid a bribe to get off scott free.

And now your turn to be honest.

[Banzai99]

@Banzai99

Pray

tell me what you would do in a situation that was very serious but you

had the opportunity to grease some palms and walk away ?

Be honest.//

Maybe being smart and not end up in a Thai jail would be a start... But making connections and friends would probably be more of a useful advice. This would go for any country you move to.

Ah, connections...

Even with the amazing connections that only ThaiVisa members seem to have, somewhere down the line, I would pay and so would you.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Banzai99

[maxme]

@Banzai99

Pray

tell me what you would do in a situation that was very serious but you

had the opportunity to grease some palms and walk away ?

Be honest.//

Maybe being smart and not end up in a Thai jail would be a start... But making connections and friends would probably be more of a useful advice. This would go for any country you move to.

Ah, connections...

Even with the amazing connection the only ThaiVisa members seem to have, somewhere down the line, I would pay and so would you

Then you obviously don´t have the right connections and no I don´t have to pay since some of these happen to be my in- laws. I have managed in worse countries than LOS but you clearly lack the experience.

Edited April 22, 2013 by maxme

[Theoutsider]

When was it charming?

[Katipo]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

I disagree. Corruption is the cancer most responsible for the relative poverty of much of Thailand.

While it is true there is little we can do about it at a national level, we can choose to minimise our own involvement. Whether that be not paying a fine under the table, or perhaps not buying a counterfeit product of some form or another.

'Bitching' can be an effective to stress reliever in an otherwise helpless situation. Getting something of your chest is much better than keeping it inside, even if it has no effect on the root problem.

Perhaps the best way to fight corruption is to find a way to empower/educate those who do not have the power to help themselves. By making the powerless less reliant on the corrupt masters who only throw enough chicken feed to maintain their own power, slowly perhaps you can help bring about change.

Find and support a reputable charity/org that give fishing rods, not only fish. Then you can take satisfaction in not only being able to justifiably bitch, but also by the fact that you are in a small way, helping Thailand rise out of current system of Lord & Peon.

[mok199]

easy....when our old friend ''mr greed '' shows up....

[h5kaf]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

I agree. However the original question posed was not really about "charming" but about at what level is it acceptable ('more than an exotic part of every day life'). This issue is no different from that old talking point of the man who asks his friend's wife to sleep with him for £200,000. She agrees. When he readjusts the price to £20 she refuses indignantly asking him "what do you think I am"? His reply, "we have established what you are, and are now just haggling over the price".

It seems to me that the issue of 'small corruption' or 'big corruption' clouds the main issue. Corruption is corruption and here in Thailand is unlikely to go away. If we expats cannot live with the practice then we should return to those civilised paradises we have left. I don't see much chance of that happening!!! As Naam says 'no bitching will change the situation'.

[Naam]

I agree - I don't pay taxes here (other than VAT) so why should I have

any right to criticise or praise what is done with Thai government

funds. I get to use the roads, the infrastructure (no wisecracks

please), and yet I hardly contribute a cent towards the maintenance or

capital cost of that infrastructure.

>I will say that "corruption" is endemic in Asia, and has been for

thousands of years, long before we westerners really had any real

culture. (I'm talking post Roman Conquest here.) It's a way of life in

Asia, and let's face it corruption was endemic in most western

cultures/governments until the late 19th or early 20th century.

lockquote>

i'd like to add that corruption is not limited to Asia but exists on a global

scale. the only difference is the level of corruption.

many rainy seasons ago i took over a rather big industrial project (under

construction) in Nigeria. nothing would have worked without me adapting

to "set and accepted local standards" which (for a newbie like me), were

nothing but hair raising plain theft, fraud and embezzlement. no container

was cleared, no foreign currency allocated, no work permit approved

without greasing palms.

on a lighter side... a couple of years later, the plant being operational, i

added to the agenda of a board meeting "review of CEO's remuneration".

during the meeting i asked politely for said review by pointing to my contract

which contained the clause "remuneration to be increased in line with

domestic inflation rate". after a minute or so silence and another couple of

minutes whispering and yakking in tribal language there was roaring laughter

and the company secretary was instructed by the chairman to note "motion

to increase CEO remuneration by 20% unanimously approved."

when i asked the secretary (a lawyer) later what the laughter was all about

he grinned broadly and explained that i was considered to be an honest

dummy² because anybody in my position could siphon per month a multiple

of the increase i was awarded per annum.

So if I use your logic then corruption is everywhere so it's perfectly ok to have it here as well.

please tell me why the facts i described lead to the conclusion "my logic: corruption = perfectly ok".

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

I disagree. Corruption is the cancer most responsible for the relative poverty of much of Thailand.

While it is true there is little we can do about it at a national level, we can choose to minimise our own involvement. Whether that be not paying a fine under the table, or perhaps not buying a counterfeit product of some form or another.

'Bitching' can be an effective to stress reliever in an otherwise helpless situation. Getting something of your chest is much better than keeping it inside, even if it has no effect on the root problem.

Perhaps the best way to fight corruption is to find a way to empower/educate those who do not have the power to help themselves. By making the powerless less reliant on the corrupt masters who only throw enough chicken feed to maintain their own power, slowly perhaps you can help bring about change.

Find and support a reputable charity/org that give fishing rods, not only fish. Then you can take satisfaction in not only being able to justifiably bitch, but also by the fact that you are in a small way, helping Thailand rise out of current system of Lord & Peon.

and then Thais and Expats will live happily ever after.

[Naam]

Farang seem to have selective corruption syndrome.

If they directly benefit from said corruption, everything is fine, motoring offences comes to mind, how many Farangs would jump at the opportunity to buy their way out of a serious offence, like causing death whilst under the influence for instance ?

And anyone here who says they would refuse the opportunity to pay their way out and spend years in Prison instead is a liar or mad or both.

Yet they rant and rave if a Thai does the very same thing.

The fact that Farangs have nothing to offer in Thailand that could ellicit a bribe embitters them, but they are willing to pay bribes that are of benefit to themselves.

It's the Thais that get the monetary gains though, that's what really hurts, once again they are outsiders, once again they are not on the recieving end never can or will be, all they can ever do is pay, never recieve, and look on as a Policeman gets in his new Mercedes.

Absolute BS, most farange are raised in a society where corruption is not acceptable any more, so why would you assume that they would want to be involved in it in a country where they would never really have the ability to know or trust the people they would be bribing? paying off a police officer for a few KPH over the limit is 1 thing being involved in something that could put lives in danger is completely different. Paying off a ploice officer for a drink driving offence is still something i feel would be frowned upon by most farang.

most Farangs were raised in a society which was/is too stupid to realise corruption exists in all societies/countries.

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

This seemingly passive approach has no foundation in reality and denies the fact that social norms are fluid, they change with society.

Merely by arriving in Thailand and interacting with Thais we each of us have an impact, miniscule yes but an impact all the same.

There is an ongoing social discourse in Thailand on the subject of corruption, paying a backhander reinforces norms of corruption, joining the discourse changes societies views.

yeah right! i was never stopped by traffic police and therefore never had a chance to interact "get lost officer! so what if i exceeded the speed limit? i will not pay the demanded 200 Baht for which you are not willing to issue a receipt. by refusing to give you the money i am trying to make miniscule impact on society."

[Theoutsider]

It's hypocritical of westerners to point the finger when the west is also corrupt.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Theoutsider

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

Well, it is the business of the Thai people.

And 62% of the Thai people are for it,

And they think it starts losing its charm when they do not get a benefit from it.

Perhaps when the benefit is only for the few up there, who do not care about the Thai people...the 'mai sohn jai' ones...

i am not "Thai people". that's the reason why i don't care what percentage of Thai people are for or against whatever. i also don't care what benefits the "few up there" enjoy and about what they care about or not. i also don't mind that Farang daydreamers and bleeding hearts are working hard to change Thai society, au contraire, i wish them all possible luck... that is, as long as they don't ring my doorbell and ask me to join their Don Quijote crusade.

[Naam]

We all know, that a fair amount of those money, are going to end up in

the wrong pockets. Which most to us is not acceptable, simply due to the

big amounts we are talking about.

it is none of our (expats) business to judge what is acceptable/charming or not

in our "host" country. moreover, no bitching will change the situation.

Sorry, but the "we have no right to judge" argument is misguided nonsense. Anyone has the right to criticise any world event regardless of their nationality or whom they pay taxes to. We make observations and we share them with each other. Since when does the right to criticise have to be earned? Only Thais are allowed, under your code of honour, to discuss corruption in Thailand? So did foreigners have no right to judge the Khmer Rouge slaughtering their own population - and not to discuss it because bitching wouldn't stop the genocide? How about when Thailand had the coup in 2006? Was it okay to judge that? I can think of a lot of foreign investors who quite rightly believed they had a right to be informed of what was happening - and the inherent criticisms that implies - regardless of whether the reporters were guests in the oh-so-gracious host country or not.

Why are you even on the thaivisa forums, which are, for the most part, dedicated to passing judgment on this country?

And yes, no amount of bitching about right and wrong, injustice and thievery will stop it occurring, but do you really believe that people should just stop talking about these things? What topics are people allowed to talk about?

Why are you even on the thaivisa forums, which are, for the most part, dedicated to passing judgment on this country?

best of the day! Farangs without any clout "passing judgment on this country".

[Phronesis]

I don't file a tax return here so they can misappropriate as many tax dollars as they like...

I do however occasionally get robbed by the BiB.

So my only dislike is for corruption that affects MY bottom line.

The gabillion dollar stuff can go on full steam...I couldn't care less as long as it does not cost me a dime...

If Thai or Farang tax payer here are unhappy about it they can carry the flag of revolution...

I will be out surfing...

[Keith67]

Farang seem to have selective corruption syndrome.

If they directly benefit from said corruption, everything is fine, motoring offences comes to mind, how many Farangs would jump at the opportunity to buy their way out of a serious offence, like causing death whilst under the influence for instance ?

And anyone here who says they would refuse the opportunity to pay their way out and spend years in Prison instead is a liar or mad or both.

Yet they rant and rave if a Thai does the very same thing.

The fact that Farangs have nothing to offer in Thailand that could ellicit a bribe embitters them, but they are willing to pay bribes that are of benefit to themselves.

It's the Thais that get the monetary gains though, that's what really hurts, once again they are outsiders, once again they are not on the recieving end never can or will be, all they can ever do is pay, never recieve, and look on as a Policeman gets in his new Mercedes.

Absolute BS, most farange are raised in a society where corruption is not acceptable any more, so why would you assume that they would want to be involved in it in a country where they would never really have the ability to know or trust the people they would be bribing? paying off a police officer for a few KPH over the limit is 1 thing being involved in something that could put lives in danger is completely different. Paying off a ploice officer for a drink driving offence is still something i feel would be frowned upon by most farang.

most Farangs were raised in a society which was/is too stupid to realise corruption exists in all societies/countries.

I didn't say it didn't exist, i said it's seen as not acceptable, if a police officer stopped 10 people in Europe or America for speeding and demanded cash payment how many do you think would pay and how many would report it? Corruption exists throughout the world we know that, it doesn't make it right though even if we can do nothing about it.

[Keith67]

I don't file a tax return here so they can misappropriate as many tax dollars as they like...

I do however occasionally get robbed by the BiB.

So my only dislike is for corruption that affects MY bottom line.

The gabillion dollar stuff can go on full steam...I couldn't care less as long as it does not cost me a dime...

If Thai or Farang tax payer here are unhappy about it they can carry the flag of revolution...

I will be out surfing...

Why do you think the baht is so strong, industry is booming through corruption and exchange rates are being affected so it's costing everybody money in some sense including you.

[fxe1200]

Corruption is not charming, when a charity has to pay tea money in order to receive a guardian paper, which will entitle the charity to take care of the foster-child legally.

[Keith67]

A pay off would not be offered for the offence you stated as a far larger sum of money would be gained through the legal chanels, i.e. payments to the family plus fines and the fact a conviction for a more serious crime was achieved.

Tell me, have you ever been to Thailand ?

Only for the last 9 years and you?

Ok so you want to prove me wrong i can live with being wrong, how many farangs do you know that have killed someone whilst driving under the influence and paid a bribe to get off scott free.

And now your turn to be honest.

I gave you the oportunity of your life on this topic to prove me wrong, you could have shown all the members on here that what you say is perfectly justified and correct, you could have made a point to all the corruption haters but instead, you just sat back and said nothing, can only assume "google" didn't come through for you this time, ah well better luck next time.

Any further debate should be avoided without proof if you are going to question anything somebody says.

At least Naam although sometimes harsh and critical of members and topics seems to be able to back up his opinions and comments.

[StreetCowboy]

SPLAT!

Santika

etc.