Online Graphic Design Business

[TomTom55]

Hello all, hope you are enjoying the hottest hot season in a long while!

I have been living here for several years now and currently am on an ED visa. I am pretty much fluent in Thai but my reading and writing skills are nowhere near as good. Anyway, this is besides the point. I am a graphic designer and have been freelancing for sometime now on the net, I am setting the wheels in motion to start my own business up which would include a website, business cards etc. My clients will all be overseas and these are my questions if I could have some help and advice:

1. Would I need a business visa for this? Surely it is the same as freelancing but just with my own website?

2. Would I need to pay taxes?

3. If the answer is yes, how the hell would that work in this backwards country? I mean I am a British national who would have an online business with overseas clients

Any help is greatly appreciated,
-Tom.

[Mario2008]

Work requires a work permit, for which you need a Thai company with a Thai national holding the majority of shares. On an ED-visa you can not get a work permit anyway.

Yes, if you work in Thailand you must pay taxes in Thailand. (But there are treaties against double taxation).

[Soutpeel]

If the answer is yes, how the hell would that work in this backwards country?

I am curious to know why the OP thinks Thailand is backwards because as a non-national of Thailand they want him:

1. to get an appropriate visa/WP to operate a Thai business

2. Pay taxes in Thailand for operating a business from Thailand

does the UK allow a non-national (lets say a Thai national for the purposes of this example) just set up a business in UK, not require a work visa and not have to pay taxes, if said Thai national is doing business from the UK with Thailand only ?

Dont think so...therefore the UK must be backwards as well

BTW if you have been freelancing from Thailand to this point..you have been working illegally already and in contravention of the conditions of your currrent Ed visa.

[TomTom55]

If the answer is yes, how the hell would that work in this backwards country?

I am curious to know why the OP thinks Thailand is backwards because as a non-national of Thailand they want him:

1. to get an appropriate visa/WP to operate a Thai business

2. Pay taxes in Thailand for operating a business from Thailand

does the UK allow a non-national (lets say a Thai national for the purposes of this example) just set up a business in UK, not require a work visa and not have to pay taxes, if said Thai national is doing business from the UK with Thailand only ?

Dont think so...therefore the UK must be backwards as well

BTW if you have been freelancing from Thailand to this point..you have been working illegally already and in contravention of the conditions of your currrent Ed visa.

I have not been freelancing no, that would be somewhat silly wouldn't it

I sense a little hostility, I did not mean this particular aspect of the country was backwards, I merely referred to it in general. It is backwards for some good reasons and for some bad.

Anyway, back to the topic of starting a business online. If I could have some advice that is not too sarcy that would be great. I literally do not know where to begin with regards to informing who, where and how to pay taxes, what I would need to meet requirements for this B visa. I have heard different things from different people as well which is annoying, so I have come here. I want to do this legit and get it up and running within 6 months if possible.

-Tom

[Soutpeel]

If the answer is yes, how the hell would that work in this backwards country?

I am curious to know why the OP thinks Thailand is backwards because as a non-national of Thailand they want him:

1. to get an appropriate visa/WP to operate a Thai business

2. Pay taxes in Thailand for operating a business from Thailand

does the UK allow a non-national (lets say a Thai national for the purposes of this example) just set up a business in UK, not require a work visa and not have to pay taxes, if said Thai national is doing business from the UK with Thailand only ?

Dont think so...therefore the UK must be backwards as well

BTW if you have been freelancing from Thailand to this point..you have been working illegally already and in contravention of the conditions of your currrent Ed visa.

I have not been freelancing no, that would be somewhat silly wouldn't it

I sense a little hostility, I did not mean this particular aspect of the country was backwards, I merely referred to it in general. It is backwards for some good reasons and for some bad.

Anyway, back to the topic of starting a business online. If I could have some advice that is not too sarcy that would be great. I literally do not know where to begin with regards to informing who, where and how to pay taxes, what I would need to meet requirements for this B visa. I have heard different things from different people as well which is annoying, so I have come here. I want to do this legit and get it up and running within 6 months if possible.

-Tom

If your not married to a Thai national, you would need to set up at THB 2.0 million capitalised company employ 4 Thai nationals, to get a the WP, if married to one, then requirements are halved, once company is set up you would be a registered tax payer and pay your tax in Thailand, if you have no experience in doing this one suggests you retain a legal company to do all this for you... 6 months is easily doable, but one suspects you will not get extension of stay as its a new company so will be visa running every 90 days for first couple of years

[BrianCR]

Unfortunately TomTom many westerners living in Thailand make comments such as your "backward country". As a fellow Brit I can truthfully say that the UK takes some beating as far as a backward country is concerned. My main point, if you wish to set up any sort of business here you will need (like it or not) help from the "countries backward citizens", help that will cost a lot or, be deliberately set to foil your business, why? Because to succeed here the most important quality for business or private life is acceptance. Without that you are doomed to failure! Many westerners use the same or similar comments as yourself and continue to bang their head against a wall. I was intending to help with information regarding your business however, the best help would be for you to get a lawyer. Good luck with your project

[Hawkman]

Could a Thai or Cambodian national walk into the UK and ask for a work permit for their Online Business? Nope.

And this is the problem, it's not just a Thai problem, but as far as I know a global problem. The world has changed; jobs have changed and the governing bodies have not been fair or have come up with smart ideas to help people in the situation you find yourself in. Some solution needs to be found as soon I will face this same problem. How is an online business starting up going to find 2 million baht capital and what would you need 4 Thai workers for? It isn't realistic. We live in the internet and social media world now and countries need to take this into account for businesses.

However, you have to see it from their view too; can you imagine if Thailand said, yes, people have who have an online business are free to get a work permit; you then open yourself up to any odd loser with a laptop trying to get a work permit.

What you need, is a bit of common sense (yes, I know that's sincerely lacking in the world and at the heads of this country at the moment, but....) and some kind of screening for online businesses that can bring in a certain revenue that benefit Thailand for tax and that can pass for a work permit. I can't see why this couldn't be a sensible and fair way forward.

So unfortunately, you will probably go down the route many others have to and find other ways to stay in Thailand, may not be exactly legal, but thousands do it. You will get the odd moan from people on here saying well you will just have to go home, but you sound like someone who does want to go the professional route, so you need to be cut some slack and hey, why can't these moaners just live their retirement or go and work at home instead. It's better we have foreigners here willing to work than layabouts who drink Chang all day or embarrass other foreigners with their antics in Pattaya and Nana.

Best thing if you do go down that route is keep it to yourself, don't be a dcik and don't make comments such as "backwards" (that will lose you sympathy and proper help on here). So, good luck on what you start up.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Hawkman

[IMA_FARANG]

To be honest about it, the applicable Thai labor laws have not yet caught up with the "on-line business" concept.

They were written before there was such a thing as a on-line business that was a valid possibility.

And, in Thailand, nothing changes quickly or easily.

That may change some time, but it may take a while.

For that reason, you are under the old laws where you worked for a THAI company as an employee of them, and THEY (the Thai company) did the tax paperwork for you as their employee.

The concept of a foreigner living and working in Thailand and making a living "on-line" then was not thought of as possible and therefore there is no provision for such a thing yet.

You may be able to get a work permit, but because it will be a new idea, they won't know what to do. No precedent.

Now , if you have the capital, you can start your own business. You will need to have 4 Thai employees and put up the required capital (funds) to start such a business.

If you're serious about it, you should be prepared to get a Thai lawyer or a law firm with some experience in Thai labor law, and starting foreign companies in Thailand.

It will probably be expensive.

Yes, it would be a win-win situation if there was an updated procedure for a foreigner to LEGALLY.

1. Start a Thailand based on-line business and

2. Being able to legally pay taxes n that business.

Both Thailand and the foreigner would benefit from that. That is why I called it a win-win situation.

But so far there is no procedure, and the Thai offices that should be responsible just have no clue how to start such a thing.

Edited May 9, 2013 by IMA_FARANG

[TomTom55]

Could a Thai or Cambodian national walk into the UK and ask for a work permit for their Online Business? Nope.

And this is the problem, it's not just a Thai problem, but as far as I know a global problem. The world has changed; jobs have changed and the governing bodies have not been fair or have come up with smart ideas to help people in the situation you find yourself in. Some solution needs to be found as soon I will face this same problem. How is an online business starting up going to find 2 million baht capital and what would you need 4 Thai workers for? It isn't realistic. We live in the internet and social media world now and countries need to take this into account for businesses.

However, you have to see it from their view too; can you imagine if Thailand said, yes, people have who have an online business are free to get a work permit; you then open yourself up to any odd loser with a laptop trying to get a work permit.

What you need, is a bit of common sense (yes, I know that's sincerely lacking in the world and at the heads of this country at the moment, but....) and some kind of screening for online businesses that can bring in a certain revenue that benefit Thailand for tax and that can pass for a work permit. I can't see why this couldn't be a sensible and fair way forward.

So unfortunately, you will probably go down the route many others have to and find other ways to stay in Thailand, may not be exactly legal, but thousands do it. You will get the odd moan from people on here saying well you will just have to go home, but you sound like someone who does want to go the professional route, so you need to be cut some slack and hey, why can't these moaners just live their retirement or go and work at home instead. It's better we have foreigners here willing to work than layabouts who drink Chang all day or embarrass other foreigners with their antics in Pattaya and Nana.

Best thing if you do go down that route is keep it to yourself, don't be a dcik and don't make comments such as "backwards" (that will lose you sympathy and proper help on here). So, good luck on what you start up.

Thank you very much for your understanding but blunt comment. I am not a typical young expat or holiday maker, I stay away from most of the islands and do not frequent gogo bars. I am only 25 and my partner of 2 and a half years is 35 lol, Thai. I studied graphic design and photography for 2 years so it is my passion and I would love to start a business here, yet I am finding it to be a lot more complicated and difficult than I could imagine. I am not going to be able to find 2 million baht any time soon either, so I will have to see what the future brings.

I am still studying Thai as I said I am pretty much fluent but now on the reading and writing courses. I can stay here for up to 5 years with this one school I am with at the moment, and I can always switch to a different school after that. However, as we all know things can change here like the wind with regards to laws and such. When I said 'backwards' I did not mean it in an offensive way or in a context of putting down Thailand, I worded that sentence pretty poorly. I meant that it is quite different to 'home' with a lot of respects and I am lost in what to do about tax, visa etc. But now I know, the hard part will be the doing.

@IMA_FARANG thank you for this interesting bit of information. So technically I could have a business as the Thais did not look forward to the future of technology and set in place laws for up and coming business etc? I really don't understand why they make it so difficult, I mean if they loosened the laws a little but not too extreme, find a middle way (like most of the Buddhas teachings suggest, a middle way), then the majority of the money produced by new businesses would come back into their economy. Owel, what will be will be :/

[BrianCR]

Perhaps I was a bit hard on you (your comment really made me angry) however, there are legal ways to circumvent many problems that you will come up against in forming a business to trade. It would take a while to type exactly what you could easily do so, if you're really serious about going ahead with your project let me know and in addition (and importantly) tell me where you wish to set your business up (which city) and how much money (however small) you are reasonably willing to put into doing it

[Soutpeel]

To be honest about it, the applicable Thai labor laws have not yet caught up with the "on-line business" concept.

They were written before there was such a thing as a on-line business that was a valid possibility.

It always intrigues me when people use this rationalisation about Thailand and I am curious to know why the laws havent yet caught up with the "on-line" business concept and would challange someone to suggest a country which has caught up with the "on-line" business concept wherein a non-national of that country can arrive in country as a tourist/student etc, set up an on-line business, become a "resident" of that country and work in that country and not have to follow the current business,current taxation and immigration laws applicable ?

Establishing a company in Thailand is not that hard and not that expensive, and why should on-line business' be treated any different from another type of company operating from Thailand ?

Edited May 9, 2013 by Soutpeel

[Soutpeel]

I really don't understand why they make it so difficult, I mean if they loosened the laws a little but not too extreme, find a middle way (like most of the Buddhas teachings suggest, a middle way), then the majority of the money produced by new businesses would come back into their economy. Owel, what will be will be :/

In what way would you like the laws loosensed ?...and why is it so difficult ?...and how will the majority of the money come back into the Thai ecomony ?

[jrtmedic]

"Graphic Designers" are 10 a penny ! -- It is one of those soft "qualifications" like "Media Studies" which mean FA and are certainly no guarantee of employment in the real world !

Have you ever been employed as a "graphic designer" ? Or are you living in a make believe world ?

Failing to make a career in the West is a certain guarantee of failure in the East !

My advice is to stop dreaming. go home and WORK ----

Slopping around in Thailand thinking you can earn living whilst existing on an Ed Visa marks you out -----Work permits are not available to people on Ed visas !

You , I suspect are one of many who attempt to circumvent the Thai authorities "rules" to your own advantage -----hence your comment about the country being "backward" because the rules do not fit your purpose.

[TomTom55]

"Graphic Designers" are 10 a penny ! -- It is one of those soft "qualifications" like "Media Studies" which mean FA and are certainly no guarantee of employment in the real world !

Have you ever been employed as a "graphic designer" ? Or are you living in a make believe world ?

Failing to make a career in the West is a certain guarantee of failure in the East !

My advice is to stop dreaming. go home and WORK ----

Slopping around in Thailand thinking you can earn living whilst existing on an Ed Visa marks you out -----Work permits are not available to people on Ed visas !

You , I suspect are one of many who attempt to circumvent the Thai authorities "rules" to your own advantage -----hence your comment about the country being "backward" because the rules do not fit your purpose.

I have been employed at a printing agency as a designer under the boss here for 3 months until he got worried about work permits. I have made a living from freelancing for a long time so yes I have been employed, in factas I type this I am doing research for a logo design for somebody .

You are a somewhat brash person and even if I have a lot to learn, I have come a long way and made a decent life for myself at a young age. So how about you get off of my case? I do not need your input as I have had decent advice from other people on this board and in PMs. Just a hunch, but you come across as a grumpy old man trying to give some wisdom to a little lost boy, I am not lost, I have made it here for several years and will continue to do so. I have explained that my comment about Thailand being backwards was worded wrongly and in the wrong context, it is 'backwards' in the sense it is a different system and culture to the west, in a good aspects and bad aspects.

I did not fail in the West, I just wanted to leave because I did not like the society, culture, weather, economy etc.

Edited May 9, 2013 by TomTom55

[TomTom55]

I really don't understand why they make it so difficult, I mean if they loosened the laws a little but not too extreme, find a middle way (like most of the Buddhas teachings suggest, a middle way), then the majority of the money produced by new businesses would come back into their economy. Owel, what will be will be :/

In what way would you like the laws loosensed ?...and why is it so difficult ?...and how will the majority of the money come back into the Thai ecomony ?

I would suggest that you do not need to employ 4 Thai people, I would also lower the cost of 2million baht and make the process easier in general. However, it needs to be middle wayed and not a situation where you can just arrive and work at the drop of a hat. This is my opinion anyway.

It is difficult because people like me with talent and who are dedicated do not always have 2 million baht lying around, I am only 25..I have enough money to live comfortably but I cannot chuck 2million baht at such a thing at this point in my life.

The vast majority of the money would come back to the economy because my clients would be overseas, so their money would end up in mhy pocket, my money then gets spent on food, rent, social activities etc, AKA the economy...

[Hawkman]

TomTom55 - Sorry for any confusion, probably the way I wrote it; but my "blunt comment' - was not directed in a harsh way towards you; just giving general advice to anyone who goes down the route of not having the correct visa, to keep it to themselves and not be a **** or whatever.

I agree with you on this subject as I think the laws are outdated and unrealistic.

[jrtmedic]

Imagine yourself to be a Thai person !

Now try to gain access to ANY Western country based on your self claimed (non degree qualified) "expertise"

Edited May 9, 2013 by jrtmedic

[Hawkman]

To be honest about it, the applicable Thai labor laws have not yet caught up with the "on-line business" concept.

They were written before there was such a thing as a on-line business that was a valid possibility.

It always intrigues me when people use this rationalisation about Thailand and I am curious to know why the laws havent yet caught up with the "on-line" business concept and would challange someone to suggest a country which has caught up with the "on-line" business concept wherein a non-national of that country can arrive in country as a tourist/student etc, set up an on-line business, become a "resident" of that country and work in that country and not have to follow the current business,current taxation and immigration laws applicable ?

Establishing a company in Thailand is not that hard and not that expensive, and why should on-line business' be treated any different from another type of company operating from Thailand ?

Though, I agree with it not just being Thailand that has this "online problem"; the world has completely changed in the way some people work compared to 20 years back.

And there are differences, why would you need 4 Thai workers if the only worker you need is yourself and your laptop? And not many online businesses will have a 2 million capital.

If labor laws throughout the world don't want to deal with this on-line business change in the world, then all what will happen is it will encourage people to work illegally; would we prefer that?

However, as mentioned in my other post, how they deal with this and bring in new laws would be difficult as you will get lots of people who will suddenly try and open business through their laptops to try and get around the visa issue; but in the meantime it stops genuine people who do want to have their own business.

[Soutpeel]

I really don't understand why they make it so difficult, I mean if they loosened the laws a little but not too extreme, find a middle way (like most of the Buddhas teachings suggest, a middle way), then the majority of the money produced by new businesses would come back into their economy. Owel, what will be will be :/

In what way would you like the laws loosensed ?...and why is it so difficult ?...and how will the majority of the money come back into the Thai ecomony ?

I would suggest that you do not need to employ 4 Thai people, I would also lower the cost of 2million baht and make the process easier in general. However, it needs to be middle wayed and not a situation where you can just arrive and work at the drop of a hat. This is my opinion anyway.

It is difficult because people like me with talent and who are dedicated do not always have 2 million baht lying around, I am only 25..I have enough money to live comfortably but I cannot chuck 2million baht at such a thing at this point in my life.

The vast majority of the money would come back to the economy because my clients would be overseas, so their money would end up in mhy pocket, my money then gets spent on food, rent, social activities etc, AKA the economy...

You dont need THB 2.0 million cash lying around....its THB 2.0 million capitalisation....not the same thing..further doing things as you suggest will open the whole system up to all kinds of abuse...every knobhead with a laptop will be saying they are running on-lines business' just so they can get a WP/Visa, thereby using as a vehicle for long term stay..with no intention of operating a business...just using the on-line business to finance their life in Thailand

establishing decent business set up rules, as I believe the THB 2.0 million capitalisation/4 Thai employee rules are, ensures someone is serious about trying to set up a legimate business...employing 4 Thai's contributes to the economy by creating employment, and into the welfare scheme/medical scheme...

so lets ask this question, if you had your way...how much would you reduce the THB 2.0 million requirement to ?....we have already established you want to do away with the 4 employee requirement, would you wish to do away with income tax as well ?

[asiaexpat]

TomTom55, your issue is that you are in Thailand on and Ed-visa and not allowed to work by law. Should you decide to start a business and get a work permit, you will be required to comply with the law as it is today. That involves a a substantial investment in both money and time. Good luck.

[Soutpeel]

You are a somewhat brash person and even if I have a lot to learn, I have come a long way and made a decent life for myself at a young age. So how about you get off of my case? I do not need your input as I have had decent advice from other people on this board and in PMs. Just a hunch, but you come across as a grumpy old man trying to give some wisdom to a little lost boy, I am not lost, I have made it here for several years and will continue to do so. I have explained that my comment about Thailand being backwards was worded wrongly and in the wrong context, it is 'backwards' in the sense it is a different system and culture to the west, in a good aspects and bad aspects.

Er you posted on a public forum asking for advice..you have to take the good with the bad...

[jrtmedic]

Those who proclaim to abuse both alcohol and drugs have little regard for the "law" which is why they sulk in Thailand as they believe the Law will not catch up with them ! (Check the OP's previous posts)

Edited May 9, 2013 by jrtmedic

[Soutpeel]

Those who proclaim to abuse both alcohol and drugs have little regard for the "law" which is why they sulk in Thailand as they believe the Law will not catch up with them !

....."JR" have you been on the ear medicine ?....<deleted> are you on about ?

[jrtmedic]

As I implied it is necessary to check the OP's previous posts where s/he quite openly admits to abusing drugs/alcohol

Edited May 9, 2013 by jrtmedic

[TomTom55]

As I implied it is necessary to check the OP's previous posts where s/he quite openly admits to abusing drugs/alcohol

And that matters how? Because somebody has used alcohol or substances means they are not capable of leading a normal life, using their skills to start a business and never leave that type of life style behind? lol Thaivisa is full of bitter 'know it-alls', yes there are a few decent members but daily I lurk and see many bitter old man talking about the same old thing. That bitterness and opinionated jumped up, old fartiness has carried over to this thread. Moderators, you can close it if you will, I have the advice I need and contacts from a couple of decent people to PM.

[pistachios]

IMA_FARANG is correct. The authorities don't have a clue. You cannot possibly have a viable and legal business if you want to follow thai law. Just the fact that you would have to give 4 fake jobs to thais will not only take out a solid chunk of your revenue but also put your business at risk should the authorities investigate it a bit closely.

Just do an analysis of the risk/rewards of each solution. If you are working with foreign customers, you have zero incentive to become legal as you cannot possibly get caught and you have your visa situation already sorted out. If you want thai customers, you may need to go the legal way. Then it will be very expensive, complicated and you will still possibly face problems with the fake jobs situation.

[Soutpeel]

As I implied it is necessary to check the OP's previous posts where s/he quite openly admits to abusing drugs/alcohol

per one of the OP's other posts "It is difficult because people like me with talent"

Typically creative/talented people as the OP claims he is usually have problems with substance abuse...

[jrtmedic]

Live a normal life ? Use "skills" to run a business ? ------Great ! ----Just do it legally and for a start come up with the honestly earnt Capital requirement of some 2 million Bht !

[Soutpeel]

IMA_FARANG is correct. The authorities don't have a clue. You cannot possibly have a viable and legal business if you want to follow thai law. Just the fact that you would have to give 4 fake jobs to thais will not only take out a solid chunk of your revenue but also put your business at risk should the authorities investigate it a bit closely.

Just do an analysis of the risk/rewards of each solution. If you are working with foreign customers, you have zero incentive to become legal as you cannot possibly get caught and you have your visa situation already sorted out. If you want thai customers, you may need to go the legal way. Then it will be very expensive, complicated and you will still possibly face problems with the fake jobs situation.

One suspects the authrorities do have clue and that the reason they do make it "difficult" as stated in previous post..you would have every nobhead with a lap top claiming they work on line just to stay here long term...

ok lets suppose they made it "easy" to set up here and do away with capitalisation/Thai staff requirements, but replaced this with requiring individuals working this way to pay 47% income tax in Thailand...would the "on-liners" be satisified with that ?

[pistachios]

IMA_FARANG is correct. The authorities don't have a clue. You cannot possibly have a viable and legal business if you want to follow thai law. Just the fact that you would have to give 4 fake jobs to thais will not only take out a solid chunk of your revenue but also put your business at risk should the authorities investigate it a bit closely.

Just do an analysis of the risk/rewards of each solution. If you are working with foreign customers, you have zero incentive to become legal as you cannot possibly get caught and you have your visa situation already sorted out. If you want thai customers, you may need to go the legal way. Then it will be very expensive, complicated and you will still possibly face problems with the fake jobs situation.

One suspects the authrorities do have clue and that the reason they do make it "difficult" as stated in previous post..you would have every nobhead with a lap top claiming they work on line just to stay here long term...

ok lets suppose they made it "easy" to set up here and do away with capitalisation/Thai staff requirements, but replaced this with requiring individuals working this way to pay 47% income tax in Thailand...would the "on-liners" be satisified with that ?

No they don't, because when you ask them if you need a work permit, they say yes, but they don't know how to get this work permit (as it is in fact impossible to get for that kind of activities).

Obviously nobody would be satisfied with that confiscatory levels of income tax. But I'm sure many freelance workers would be very satisfied to be able to stay in thailand with a business visa, a legal job, and a reasonable amount of taxes to pay.