Gay Vs Non Gay

[tuky]

I have noticed that some heterosexual people, whether knowingly or not build an huge divide between the two lifestyles.

Lets take a look, but firstly I must say that I am quoting phrases, not people. Certainly not pointing anybody out, having a go at anybody, I just want to explore the Gay vs Non Gay thing.

I'm not gay or anything

Is this a normal reaction from a heterosexual when discussing gay issues? Is it because one needs to clarify their manhood first? presumably to themselves more than anyone else before they can participate in a gay discussion?

I am guilty of making the same statements myself in years gone by, but have grown to realise that it is not necessary, likewise I do not feel the need to state that I am white, before entering into a colour/racial issue.

err.. why would u want to see a pair of poofs bumming each other if yer not a fag yourself?

I think you will find that it would make most non queer people sick

Now this kind of comment is interesting, why would someone feel the need to enter a clearly gay topic to make such statements? perhaps a degree of voyerism?

Or once again is someone pampering to their own feelings of their masculinity by doing so?

Just a quick question for any poofs out there..

First, I think we'd all like not to be called "poofs.." People generally object to being called "red-necks" for similar reasons

Guys/Gals, is it just ignorance or malevolence?

Is it just a subtle way of having a go, or are these really innocuous comments made by people who are wearing blinkers?

I have never heard a gay person making similar comments in an otherwise straight forum. Out of all the minority groups in the world that I have come accross, I find gay people the most accepting of the majority.

Once again I reiterate I am just posing a question, not attacking any person or identity.

Thanks

[mrentoul]

To be honest, I stopped being interested in what hostile westerners think long ago.

Much more interesting is the way Thais feel, and why they seem much more

tolerant.

Is it because one needs to clarify their manhood first? presumably to themselves more than anyone else before they can participate in a gay discussion?

Maybe they think that if women folk around them thought they were gay, they would seem less attractive. Their masculinity may be an important part of what makes them attractive, in their view. And they do not associate ''masculinity'' with putting on make up and dressing up (as some gays are wont to do).

Men are also terrified of being hit upon, apparently...though Thai men seem more forgiving of that, perhaps because over here we are more curious about our differences.

In the West, being gay is tough. Generally speaking, parents don't like it, and your employer and colleagues may kick up a fuss. You may lose your job or get beaten up.

Heterosexual males are as aware as anyone of the prejudice that gays face, which is why they want no part of it.

[Guest IT Manager]

I am thoughtful about men being concerned about being hit on. I see them being scared of being thought "compromised", but most foreign men I know have nothing to worry about in that area.

I see as I wander through various parts of the forum, men being concerned about being called "eric" accidentally, but in reality, do they have anything to worry about or are they just showing their biceps. IMO this is what happens.

A friend of mine who is gay told me that his "mate" asked if he was ever interested in a "session". My gay mate asked "of what?".

Ego is such a dirty word.

[mrmnp]

This forum is building so rapidly that there are now many topics in place before I had a chance to post in the first one. Isn't that great.

Thai men do not have the burden of thousands of years of Christian-Judean religious organizations telling them sexual contact with another man is such a horrible thing. My thai gay friend has told me about many sexual encounters he has had with straight Thai men with no drama.

On the other hand, homophobia is so prevalent in the west that it is not surprising straight men react so violently, since from childhood they have been so indoctrinated by that homophobia.

Straight sex workers performing for gays have no difficulty in doing their jobs and going home to wife and kids without a second thought. In the west. it would be almost unthinkable, or a candidate for a psychaitrist couch.

As to my observation on the first two pages of Welcome to Gays in Thailand, I was struck by the obviously straight Farangs and their posts which seemed to be subject matter for Khatouys. Effeminate men in Thailand are much seen in movies and T.V. and are without fail, Khatouy. Men who have sex with men in Thailand and don't act effeminate are rarely considered to be gay, unless they so declare themselves.

My question is: "Have the straight farang in the first two pages of post, view all gays as Khatouy as Thais do"? Have they adopted the Thai attitude by cultural immersion?

One poster did make a comment about Kings and Queens, clearly stereotypical but as the posts progressed, we saw a more perceptive post of a man being a King with one partner and a Queen with the other.

Hopefully, this forum will go along way in educating non-gays what it is all about.

[mrentoul]

One poster did make a comment about Kings and Queens, clearly stereotypical but as the posts progressed, we saw a more perceptive post of a man being a King with one partner and a Queen with the other.

Same post, as I recall. For someone not keen on labels you certainly throw a few around.

You seem to be on a mission to educate. If so, tell me what you know about gays who adopt the role of King and those who are Queens.

Go on, since you've started...educate me.

[mrmnp]

mrentoul, you misjudge me. I am here to learn other's points of view and if my comments were not provocative or did not raise questions or issues upon which members care to comment, then I have failed.

Your taunting challenge to "educate you" about a subject in which you no doubt are already an expert would be an exercise in futility.

[wcr]

mrmnp, your post was well thought out and I agree with the sentiment, so don't be concerned by the reaction of mrentoul. It is FACT that most str8 people always assume that one must be the top, and one must be the bottom. Ones the man, ones the women, King and Queen etc. Its usually boll**ks. Yes of course you may have a dominant partner, but thats no different to hetrosexual relationships or marriage.

As far as stereotyping is concerned, Thai TV is awful and gays are typically shown as khatouy characters, and my bf will laugh along with this. I say to him why do you laugh at this, its so stereotypical. But he just thinks its funny and there is no deep thought process in it, it just funny and thats the end of it. He doesn't see that its a negative image, and just thinks I overreact. He will say he is closer to his mother than his other 5 brothers because he is "half girl" This makes me cringe. I say you are not half girl, don't say that. Its how thet are bought up. He came out when he was 14, no qualms, told his parents and that was it. His younger brother is also 14 and he has just said he is gay also, even though the family have been saying they think he is for the last 2 years. With me, I fought my feelings for 30 years and was still frightened to tell my parents at the age of 40!

[mrentoul]

I am here to learn other's points of view and if my comments were not provocative or did not raise questions or issues upon which members care to comment, then I have failed.

Fair enough. If your aim is to provoke, you're off to a flying start.

I like some of the questions you raise in your posts, even if I don't like the way you express them, so all power to you.

[mrmnp]

mrentol, with experience in the fourm, perhaps I will attain a "style" of expressing myself that will be more pleasing to you.

wcr- Thank you for your support and your ability to see the area of discussion I was trying to raise. I have rarely met people, gays included, who when really pressed, won't admit that if the personal involved in the sex act is really "hot" or they are "really turned on", that they won't do almost anything in bed the other person wants, preferences aside.

In a truly loving relationship, I have found, there are no rules in bed other than "giving" to the other.

Your point about gay youth being "oriented" to a certain role is a excellent one. In Thailand, I certainly agree, that the khatouy image, maybe the only one young gays are exposed to and they may well adopt it as an "identity" until others are provided.

In the U.S., the "marlboro" man was the gay icon and even "committed" "bottoms" aped that image until they got into the bedroom, much to the disapointment of their occasional partners. ie the "Village People".

With the advent of the sitcom "...&Grace" you have role models side by side, one effeminate and one "normal" "non-stero-typical" to help in "identificaton".

Perhaps Thailand may well get there in time. What they really have going for them is their non-homophobic heritage.

[ChrisP]

What a great discussion....... thanks for all !

i'm still learning exactly how Thai's view being "gay"... but have clearly learned so far that most of them see it as a non-issue. It just is.

An interesting Asian comparison is between Singapore and Thailand. In Singapore (being so heavily western-influenced too) gay guys are generally terrified of coming-out to the family. Many report very negative reactions... maybe from an Asian cultural heritage, as well as the western cultural influence.

In the West, being gay is tough. Generally speaking, parents don't like it, and your employer and colleagues may kick up a fuss. You may lose your job or get beaten up.

and the Thai's seem to have little or no problem with it.

Thai men do not have the burden of thousands of years of Christian-Judean religious organizations telling them sexual contact with another man is such a horrible thing.

And that's part of why I wanna move to Thailand.

Do any other people have other asian comparisons to offer, or can offer views/knowledge on other Asian cultural/gay issues?

One final point, having been self-identified as both Straight and gay during my lifetime, I am basically still the same person inside.. and I try and make it clear to people that I don't see there's any basic difference in my "lifestyle" about who or how I love. I had a 5-year relationship - effectively married - and my bf described our married relationship as being "heterosexually gay"

ChrisP

[mrmnp]

ChrisP, since this thread has had no posts for a while, I am going to stick my neck out and say it was my impression that Singapore had a predominately Muslim population. (I Have never been there) KL sure does, Indonesia certtainly does, but if my surmise is correct, it wouldn't be fear of Christian-Judean homophobia that theyare afraid of.

My uneducated impression of Muslim religious faiths is that they condem homosexual acts but their cutural isolation of their women make their young men sexually unsatified much of the time and available for any type of sex available.

What say you readers to the foregoing?

[tuky]

With such a diverse population, most major religions are represented in Singapore. Among the Chinese community, Buddhism and Taoism are the most popular while ancestor worship and other Chinese sects also have their adherents. Buddhists and Taoists constituted 54% of the population at the time of the 1990 census. Islam is the official religion of the Malays, but there are also converts among the Indian, Chinese and other communities, and Muslim make up 15% of the population. Christians represent 12.5% of Singapore society (with Protestants outnumbering Roman Catholics), and of these 88% are Chinese. Some 4% of Singaporeans are Hindus, almost all Indian.

I actually thought Singapore was predominantly Christian, but I guess I got that impression because the xtians were a lot more "out there" than their buddhist or taoist companions. But I guess it makes sense that the place is mainly buddhist considering the majority chinese there.

Singapore is so sterile and performance based. LoS has a problem with farangs living in Pattaya high rise building? Singapore's problem is 12 year old's jumping out because they're afraid of their parents reactions to their report cards.

It all comes down to the 5 C's in S'pore. Career, Condo, Car, Cash and Credit card.

Sexuality comes after all these.

This is my experience with Singapore anyhow.

Sorry to throw that spanner in your theory mrmnp

[mrmnp]

No apology needed, I have learned something from the information provided. Anything I say in these threads is merely a premise, subject to immediate abandonment if proven incorrect. While I am in no danger of "not having the courage of my convictions" I try to keep my "convictiions" to a minimum, including the legal kind.(I have been succesfull so far in the legal kind)

[ChrisP]

My last 2 visits to Singapore tell me that the Gay Scene there is trying to blast the hinges off the closet....!

Last year they had 4500 people at the gay "Nation'03" party, held on Sentosa island - a public park. (I was one of them..!) The weekend club scene is VERY active, as are the Saunas. New venues opening up monthly, it seems!

http://www.Fridae.com

is a VERY active site for Sg dating, ads, news topics etc.....

and

http://www.yawningbread.org

is a great "critical essay" site from a very erudite guy.. often criticising and commenting on the gay life in Singapore.

The guys I've met there put their sex and sexuality near the very TOP of their list...

ChrisP

[kasi]

I have noticed that some heterosexual people, whether knowingly or not build an huge divide between the two lifestyles.

Lets take a look, but firstly I must say that I am quoting phrases, not people. Certainly not pointing anybody out, having a go at anybody, I just want to explore the Gay vs Non Gay thing.

Thanks

Tukylieth:

At risk of getting kicked off the forum I will put forward the possibility that the divide between gay and nongays is perhaps created by the gay person/s and the gay lifestyle culture. It is clearly taboo to bring up certain factual and philosophical issues upon which the whole gay as a lifestyle issue resides. Why is that? Are foundations that shaky?

For hetrosexuals thier sexuality is not an issue nor a lifestyle choice it is just a fact.

I agree I like the way homosexuality is regarded in Thailand as being tolerated and not making a big deal about. For a homosexual it is normal to be a homosexual. But the flip side is true homosexualily is not normal for a hetrosexual. For some it may not be an issue but the fact remains that it is not normal for most people. Most people like myself tolerate homosexuals. I find the katoys sometimes remarkably attractive and womenlike. Do I begrudge their existence? Certainly not.

For most hetrosexual men the idea of having sex with a man is not particularly appealing to put it mildly.

Since it is not appealing to me to be a homosexual or to have homosexual sex and since I have questions regarding homosexual lobbying and "lifestyle", I seem to instantly earn the label "HOMOPHOBE'" and worse. If I dont agree with you then I'm a homophobe. Is that it? Excuse me who is creating the divide now I ask?

I fully expect you to blow me off as a narrow minded hillbilly homophobe. But if you cant look at studies like the kinsey study and not see the blaring flaws, then who has the blinders on now I wonder? I put forward that you can only see what will support your choice of lifestyle and are unable to see anything differently. And you are very quick to bash anyone who dares to share a different oppinion.

c'est la vie.... get used to it.

And perhaps I should say farewell because this post will probably get me banned.

[tuky]

kasi,

Why do you care?

You've obviously done a lot of research into this, are you mad at the "reverse racism" type of issue here? might I suggest that if it is a problem for you then you should avoid this discussion topic.

I grew up in an environment that is probably not that different from the one you grew up in, I was taught, or learnt, or my surroundings influenced me to think that being gay was abnormal. Perhaps to a hetero guy it is, just as being black might be strange to a white guy or shock horror to even consider being hetero is strange for a gay guy/gal

Your input is appreciated (mostly), I personally am married to a beautiful young woman and we have a fantastic little girl, but just because I like breasts I am not looking to prove that anyone that leads a life different to the one I lead is weird or wrong.

Perhaps I should put it in language you may understand, If gay people are ruining their lives by not being white heterosexuals, then leave em to it, head off back to general topics or the farang girls thread. Or alternatively, if you can wait a day or two I think you will fit right into the BEAR PIT

It is clearly taboo to bring up certain factual and philosophical issues upon which the whole gay as a lifestyle issue resides

As is male circumcision, but I am happily circumsized. It was not my choice but I am happy with the outcome, If someone is gay and they are happy with, leave em to it.

[mrmnp]

Kasi: You use the word "tolerate", on more than one occasion, in your post when speaking about the way you treat Gays.

If I were to say that I "tolerate" blacks, would you not say I was racist?

I recall clearly my attitude about blacks during their civil rights crusades and it mirrors your attitude about the "gay lobby or agenda".

Do you really think there would be such a thing as the "gay lobby" if gays were treated equally with straights by those that govern them. Harken back to women trying to get the right to vote. Much the same, "tired" of their stridency, in your face attitude, etc. etc. etc.

"

[kasi]

Kasi:  You use the word "tolerate", on more than one occasion, in your post when speaking about the way you treat Gays.

If I were to say that I "tolerate" blacks, would you not say I was racist?

I recall clearly my attitude about blacks during their civil rights crusades and it mirrors your attitude about the "gay lobby or agenda".

Do you really think there would be such a thing as the "gay lobby" if gays were treated equally with straights by those that govern them.  Harken back to women trying to get the right to vote.  Much the same, "tired" of their stridency, in your face attitude, etc. etc. etc.

"

Interesting analogy, though fundamentaly flawed. Black people the last time I checked are born black. Not much that can really be done about it. Kind like being born white, thai chinesse, australian, american, ect, ect.

Last I heard they are still looking for a genetic marker to support being born gay.

So according to current scientific study being gay is a learned behavior though certain enviromental predispositions are acknowledged: a very fundamental difference.

deffinitions:

Tolerance: the capacity for or the practice of allowing or respecting the nature, beliefs, or behavior of others.

Acceptance: the state or condition of being accepted or acceptable, favorable reception: approval.

Again a significant difference.

So when I use these words this is the light under which I try to use them. You seem to imply that my tolerance of gay people as somehow bigoted.

mrmnp: I acknowledge gays are seeking the same civil acceptance as the civil rights movements of women and blacks. I dont agree that civil rights for homosexuals should be the same as for women and blacks reasons in part stated above. The other part is that the philosophy of the gay movement is apparently founded upon some flawed and disreputable studies.

Anyway my point here being is that tolerance is not a bad thing. In fact tolerance of homosexuality is perfectly acceptable.

I suppose I'll have to suffer the usual rash of insults as a result of this post, so be it. I'm ok now because I'm wearing a condom.

[mrmnp]

Kasi: I am happy that you found definitions for the word "tolerance" that give you comfort in not considering yourself "bigoted". However, the usual every day use of the term does have a negative connotation, certainly not encompassing acceptance.

Same-sex marriage is the big issue of the year in this area. I don't expect from your comments that you are accepting or tolerant of it as it is learned behaviour and as such not worthy of equal protection. Am I right?

Rational thinker's web pages have no difficulty whatsoever in allowing same-sex mariage as they view homosexuality as occuring naturally in nature in over 45 different species. Faith based religionists, on the other hand, use biblical sources to condem homosexuality and maintain it is learned behavior that can be unlearned. Do you believe that?

My guess is that you are a faith based religionist. Am I right? If so, there is no way you can engage in a rational discussion on the subject since your views are based on faith, not reason. Am I right?

[kasi]

mrmnp; For tolerance to have developed a negative connotation would be a good place to start a discussion on the decline of the english language.

The rationalist argument using 45 species of animals to support the normality of homosexuality in human beings to me is a weak one. Do any of those species also have same sex marriages? Is homosexuality a lifestyle amongst any of those species?

For practical social purposes like the equal rights under the laws I really dont have an issue with same sex marriage. But I'm more inclined towards adjusting the laws so there is less bias towards married people.

The main problem I'm having with this issue is the more I look into the gay philisophy the more I see that there is a rather ill defined line between homosexuality and pedophilia. The introduction of gay ideas in public school childrens texbooks brings this issue to light.

I see the current movement for same sex marriage as perhaps a search for some morality for a lifestyle that began as a model for "there is no such thing as morality".

And by the way I'm not a faith based religionist as such. I have some religion in my background but I'm not a proponent of any faith in particular. I acknowledge the fact that most average humans like me lack the capability to discern whether there is a god or not. But I also think it is the height of human arrogance to deny the existence of a god. Albert Einstein once said that when he contemplated the human eye he could not help but believe in god.

But as a human being I believe there is such a thing a morality, good and bad, man and woman, ect ect. A certain duality is part of human nature.

[mrmnp]

kasi: I am happy to hear you have no problem with same-sex marriage, which to me is a basic issue of human rights.

I agree with alot of what you have said in your last post except for your linking homosexuality to pedophilia.

I gather you are not gay yourself, so perhaps you are not aware that most pedophilia cases that come to light involved herterosexual men. Most homosexual men have no interest in males without obvious signs of masculinity in and about their bodies. Immature genitalia and absent pubic hair are a sure turn off for homosexual men. Your connection of pedophilia and homosexuality is without any factual support. Almost every male homosexual I know abhors pedophilia and condems the Catholic church for its handling of the problem amongst their clergy. Celebacy can't even be blamed for this practice, according to the apologists for what happened. Male child abuse is largely confined to heterosexual men and women as well.

I can see from the reporting on some deviant males who preyed on children in Cambodia of late due to lack of law enforcement may have been referred to as homosexuals, however, by defination, pedophilia is not homosexuality, adult same-sex sex is homosexuality and adult to child sex is pedophilia. Bestiality is bestiality, whether performed by gay men or straight men.

[kasi]

mrmnp: I read an article recently which said that the majority of convicted pedophiles are also homosexual. That is were I'm making the connnection. Since Alfred Kinsey acknowledged himself as a pedophile the connection for me is believable.

I'm glad to hear that the gay community is actively denouncing such abhorent behavior as pedophilia. I agree what is going on today in Cambodia is rather shocking. I also notice that it is nothing new for the asian male to have a taste for sex with underage girls/boys. That was going on alot 25 years ago during my first visit here. When I first went to a massage parlor on new petchburi road with a thai buddy I was shocked how young some of the girls were. To my thai friend it was just normal, "bussiness a usual". I think alot of underage girls can still be found in thailand in the thai only sector. Any farang with a lick of sense would'nt touch an underage girl. The consequenses are severe, as they should be.

[jdinasia]

I love the word "lifestyle". What exactly is this gay lifestyle you speak of? Do you think my life resembles that of the other gay people in this forum more than it resembles yours? Being 39 and living in Thailand (as a student now and soon as a business owner I think) pretty well makes me less like some of the men in here than one would guess ... and as for lifestyles just think about the word for a minute. Then think if my life is the same as yours other than where I put my penis then why would anyone care? If this is true then why not jump on the gay rights bandwagon with us? All I want out of life is to have what all people want. Good luck to you and hope you see past the "lifestyle" argument :-)

[jdinasia]

mrmnp: I read an article recently which said that the majority of convicted pedophiles are also homosexual. That is were I'm making the connnection. Since Alfred Kinsey acknowledged himself as a pedophile the connection for me is believable.

Kasi ... please cite your source about the majority of Pedo's being homosexual. All reports including those from the prison systems show that 90% are heterosexual. I will be happy to cite sources if you like :-) Oh ... and Kinsey might just be a LITTLE dated (1955?)

[Ijustwannateach]

This topic had such promise before the homophobic twit with the agenda stepped in...

It's well documented, incidentally, that over 99% of child molestation takes place heterosexually (usually the father with a daughter)- and my source, in case anyone would like to dispute it, is Dr. Benjamin Spock, writer of THE Baby Book (who is personally disgusted by the way gays have been targetted for this kind of evil slander).

Tukyleith- I've enjoyed your posts here and in the other topic (sorry, don't recall where now) in which you talk about your close feelings for a gay friend. I have a number of straight friends with whom I've had very close friendships, too, and too bad for both of us that the sexual thing just wouldn't work out.

To me, Thailand and other countries in Southeast Asia demonstrate not overly "homosexual" societies, but rather societies where homophobia has been kept at bay (so far, the Thai-Chinese are trying hard to bring it here into Thailand). So you have the wonderful phenomenon here of straight guys who can hug and hold hands with each other with absolutely no stigma attached. A number of sociologists have written about how much damage straight homophobic Western men do to themselves by their exaggerated avoidance of warmth and emotional sharing with each other.

The homophobic fellow above is typical of the type. If Gertrude Stein referred to the average women of the 50s-70s as "female impersonators," trapped into a role, then I guess I'd call this kind of fellow a "male impersonator." He thinks he is a "man," defined by his social roles in Western society, packaged together with the usual homophobia.

With a little exploration, it's not hard to find various societies on record in which sexual roles of men and women are not clearly set up in terms of EITHER heterosexual or homosexual as defined in Western psychology, though in almost every society there is usually some kind of heterosexual and homosexual expression. There's clearly a wide range of sexual modes available to human beings- the difference in societies being what roles are acknowledge to exist and which are relatively more or less encouraged and permitted.

It seems likely, though, considering the difficulties people have in doing anything to alter their sexual behavior, that these sorts of patterns and beliefs are set fairly early and that when they are set, they are set firmly. Ideally, I suppose offering the widest possible range of roles to young people without prejudice would lead us to the happiest, most sexually fulfilled society. We've got a long, long way to go on that, though- and Thailand's closer than most Western societies to that goal.

"Steven"