Education Minister Says Thailand Lacks Scientists

[Thai at Heart]

Education Min says Thailand lacks scientists

Scientists and environmental activists are unwanted by the Thai government dogs, ask Ploddi, who recently despised them as scum

The Thai feudal government are shutting scientists down in order to preserve face of their own feudal corrupt political mafia clan.

Scientist or environmental jobs in general are categorized as "dirty and boring work and ugly" by the majority of Thai people....

Can you buy a certificate to say you are a scientist, NO---- Thats why there is a lack of them.

Well you don't do it to be rich or powerful, so it's utterly irrelevant.

[billd766]

"Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana said during the opening of the science scholarship program that Thailand has taken out very few patents when compared to other countries."

One of the main reasons that so few apply for scholarships is that the Ministry of Education has an abysmalrecord of educating Thai children. If the way to becoming a scientist was learning by rote and not by asking questions of the teachers or original thinking then Thailand would be a world leader.

Firstly get rid of ALL the education ministers and ALL the civil servants over 25 years old and replace them wioth farangs on the condition that the farang teachers train the Thais into their job. When that happens and a child asks a Thai teacher a question that the teacher does not know the answer too the teachers response must be, I'm sorry that I don't know the answer. However I WILL find out and get back to you as soon as I know.

That is when Thai education is working.

Huggh? The Thai teacher's response should be to guide kid on how he can find the answer for himself instead of asking someone else.

If the teacher did what you suggest, what will happen the next time a child asks the same question? The teacher will still not know the answer. Perhaps a combination of both working together would be better.

[utalkin2me]

As one poster very astutely noted above: you don't have to go much further than the labs in the schools here to figure out how far any of the scientists will go.

[culicine]

Some Thais are brilliant; they just need the right education. Check out Dr Art-ong here: http://www.thaiholyamulet.com/2013/04/dr-ach-ong-jumsai-na-ayudhya-spacecraft.html

Had the privilege to hear him speak at my school a few days ago. Brilliant man with all his faculties, and nearly 80 years old now.

[lungmi]

My gf is a scientist and associate professor with a PhD from KU. Her passion is teaching and hope to impart her knowledge through teaching. She is now a lecturer, administrator and Assoc Dean with Burapha U for the last 6 years since graduating. Her last drawn is less than THB30000. It's only her passion that kept her in the job.

A student of mine in my grammar school in Germany made his diploma for physics and mathematics, then PhD in Luxembourg. One year research fellow in Poland followed.

He loves Thailand, wanted to work in Thailand. I joined him to a Technology University in our Province.

Salary low, no problem, apartment free, restaurant free, private students accepted.

Then the big crash: Confrontation with his students, the level was equivalent to a middle class school (10 years), not a grammar school (13 years) in Germany.

He refused the job, saying you need "teachers" not scientist.

I read that 1/3 of the students of phys and maths at CU gave up after some weeks.The others ... open game.

[lungmi]

Say what you want about Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana

At least he recognizes the problem.

Puts him at the head of the lost for intelligent ministers.

Not saying he is intelligent but he is the head of the class.

Top of the Flop?

[Card]

oh;really, der!

Thais have no hope in hell of producing thinkers take a look at this kid - 99.999% of Thais would have no idea what he is talking about!!!

Excuse my saving so but, 99.999% of Westerners wouldn't either!!

I don't and I have a PhD in science. This kid was on the news last week - he is autistic and is tipped to get a Nobel prize - so newermonkey is making a silly comparison.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Scott

[Tywais]

oh;really, der!

Thais have no hope in hell of producing thinkers take a look at this kid - 99.999% of Thais would have no idea what he is talking about!!!

Nice try but sorry to disappoint but 99.999% of the world population would not understand it either. However, every student I have would have no problem comprehending it.

[winstonc]

i must admit as soo as he took the lid off that pen,,i was embarrased,,by my lack of knowledge,,clever little bugger,,,

[Always18]

Well, no - actually the deficit in Thailand is EDUCATION............................Mr.

education minister....................

Edited May 17, 2013 by Always18

[Payboy]

So, where do all those Thai students go that we hear of periodically winning medals in international competitions?

[Thai at Heart]

So, where do all those Thai students go that we hear of periodically winning medals in international competitions?

They end up lecturing as opposed to say Korea where Samsung pays its scientists bazillions to create 5g.

[estefaniw]

1. Thai high schools have laboratories. I have a masters in physics and teach physics at a Thai high school in CM. Granted it is probably one of the top 10 government schools and is known for science. But there are laboratories for both the English program and for students in the regular Thai program. I wouldn't give them more than a C for equipment, but with computer simulations and ingenuity, laboratory facilities are not the limiting factor for science education in Thailand. I just had my top student (rising M6) take the AP Physics exam (B-algebra based) and I expect him to do well.

2. I have worked in the US and Thailand as a patent attorney. A few hundred to a few thousand dollars and formal recognition is standard in industry for patents in large companies and/or engineers who aren't considered rock stars. Percentage royalties and/or stock options are standard for rock star engineers and start up companies.

3. All engineers don't make $100-200 grand a year in the US, why should they make that in Thailand where the cost of living is lower? Entry level engineering salaries are generally less than $100,000. Depending on the field a mid-range engineering salary may be around $100,000. There is certainly no need to pay above US market rate salaries in Thailand.

I think that one major weakness in the Thai education system is that it is product rather than process oriented. The curriculum and standards emphasize being able to solve a wide range of problems quickly and correctly on standardized exams. However, there is little time to model and practice the scientific method. And students, who know that their university options are controlled by the exams, generally have no interest in learning how to do something. They want to learn what the answer is. For motivated and bright students, the ability to solve a wide range of problems will serve them well if they can learn how to apply those techniques to new problems. But for poor to average students you end up with people who say that it impossible to serve iced black coffee at at place that has hot black coffee and iced cappuccino on the menu.

However, the primary problem is a cultural one. Neither innovation nor science and engineering are particularly appreciated fields in Thailand. Some of that I blame on the fields of science and engineering themselves, which do not do enough to emphasize the social (including social justice and social welfare) aspects of the profession. This is one of the reasons there are relatively few women doing science and engineering. If doing good or working with people is a motivating factor for someone, that person might discount science and engineering professions.

And, as is true both in the US and here, science and engineering are not the best professions to go into if you want to make money or gain/maintain status.

[BrianCR]

oh;really, der!

Thais have no hope in hell of producing thinkers take a look at this kid - 99.999% of Thais would have no idea what he is talking about!!!

Can YOU explain it in everyday English?

Edited May 18, 2013 by Scott

[hellodolly]

"Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana said during the opening of the science scholarship program that Thailand has taken out very few patents when compared to other countries."

One of the main reasons that so few apply for scholarships is that the Ministry of Education has an abysmalrecord of educating Thai children. If the way to becoming a scientist was learning by rote and not by asking questions of the teachers or original thinking then Thailand would be a world leader.

Firstly get rid of ALL the education ministers and ALL the civil servants over 25 years old and replace them wioth farangs on the condition that the farang teachers train the Thais into their job. When that happens and a child asks a Thai teacher a question that the teacher does not know the answer too the teachers response must be, I'm sorry that I don't know the answer. However I WILL find out and get back to you as soon as I know.

That is when Thai education is working.

Unless you are prepared to pay the specialist farangs a high Pay rate $100 to 200 grand year , no one would be interested in coming , like it is now, also don't forget the trainee's need to have a very good understanding of English, something that you wont see either.

Well you see, the very first they have to do is to allow foreign companies into the market without having to risk having a Thai partner. In this model, the Thai partner is in the box seat, and the foreign company brings all of the know how, a big wedge of the cash and an awful lot of the know how. This model in and of itself is utterly stultifying to career development of employees and inhibits entrepreneuralism. Why?

Because the Thai partner is already planning how to drive salaries to the absolute bottom to feather his own nest and give his son a job to create an wealth acquiring business, not a wealth creating business.He has been given the golden egg on a plate because of existing wealth and connections. This relies on barriers to entry for others, because not every foreign company will take this route, they will take a route where they can own their company 100%. Just look at the extremely wealthy businesses in Thailand, nearly all of them rely on protected business models and low wages by international standards.

The possibility that an employee can rise to the top of management is there, but the family still retains their 50% shareholding and often want to extort an above average return by iinternational standards. So where is the incentive to really invest in R&D? Very little. Keep the business running, keep others out, and make hay. The wealthiest man in the country gets rich on the back of a share holding in an energy drink company overseas, and the second wealthiest gets rich on the back of producing chicken, pork and 7-11. Hardly ground breaking stuff.

Could you imagine if a Thai person came up with an idea that would revolutionize any market that was dominated by existing Thai companies? He or she would not get a baht in funding from anyone. They would co-opt him into the company and take the idea for themselves. Something will give one day, but the reality of all of this protectionism for business is actually becoming a brake on the Thai economy not a benefit.

You talk about international standards. Can you tell us what they are so we can put your article in perspective.

Or are you cherry picking countries with high wages and leaving countries like Cambodia and Myanmar out of the equation

[KuhnPaen]

It didn't take a scientist to figure this out

[corkythecat]

Low wages..I worked with some very smart Cad/Cam guys. They could not afford a weekend in Pattaya, while bus drivers from Europe were on a months holiday there.

Interestingly none had any ambition/expectation to progress in management. The general ambition was to get a som tam cart and retire back to their home area, usually ChiengMai/ChiengRai.

[Thai at Heart]

"Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana said during the opening of the science scholarship program that Thailand has taken out very few patents when compared to other countries."

One of the main reasons that so few apply for scholarships is that the Ministry of Education has an abysmalrecord of educating Thai children. If the way to becoming a scientist was learning by rote and not by asking questions of the teachers or original thinking then Thailand would be a world leader.

Firstly get rid of ALL the education ministers and ALL the civil servants over 25 years old and replace them wioth farangs on the condition that the farang teachers train the Thais into their job. When that happens and a child asks a Thai teacher a question that the teacher does not know the answer too the teachers response must be, I'm sorry that I don't know the answer. However I WILL find out and get back to you as soon as I know.

That is when Thai education is working.

Unless you are prepared to pay the specialist farangs a high Pay rate $100 to 200 grand year , no one would be interested in coming , like it is now, also don't forget the trainee's need to have a very good understanding of English, something that you wont see either.

Well you see, the very first they have to do is to allow foreign companies into the market without having to risk having a Thai partner. In this model, the Thai partner is in the box seat, and the foreign company brings all of the know how, a big wedge of the cash and an awful lot of the know how. This model in and of itself is utterly stultifying to career development of employees and inhibits entrepreneuralism. Why?

Because the Thai partner is already planning how to drive salaries to the absolute bottom to feather his own nest and give his son a job to create an wealth acquiring business, not a wealth creating business.He has been given the golden egg on a plate because of existing wealth and connections. This relies on barriers to entry for others, because not every foreign company will take this route, they will take a route where they can own their company 100%. Just look at the extremely wealthy businesses in Thailand, nearly all of them rely on protected business models and low wages by international standards.

The possibility that an employee can rise to the top of management is there, but the family still retains their 50% shareholding and often want to extort an above average return by iinternational standards. So where is the incentive to really invest in R&D? Very little. Keep the business running, keep others out, and make hay. The wealthiest man in the country gets rich on the back of a share holding in an energy drink company overseas, and the second wealthiest gets rich on the back of producing chicken, pork and 7-11. Hardly ground breaking stuff.

Could you imagine if a Thai person came up with an idea that would revolutionize any market that was dominated by existing Thai companies? He or she would not get a baht in funding from anyone. They would co-opt him into the company and take the idea for themselves. Something will give one day, but the reality of all of this protectionism for business is actually becoming a brake on the Thai economy not a benefit.

You talk about international standards. Can you tell us what they are so we can put your article in perspective.

Or are you cherry picking countries with high wages and leaving countries like Cambodia and Myanmar out of the equation

Vis a vis which issue?

In terms of wages, I consider Singapore, Malaysia, but the one I find amazing is south Korea. When I say international, it also applies within industries such as the car industry. Thailand is still relatively cheap in comparison with Japan for labour.

When one considers that at the end of the Korean war they were as poor as Laos is today in relative terms it is amazing what has been achieved.

In basic terms at the end of the 2nd world war, everywhere around Asia was basically at the start of their current development swing.

Look at where the countries are now, their relative wealth and work out why. Thailand has not done as well as maybe it should have.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[ABCer]

There is nothing inherently wrong with Thais as compared to other peoples.

Yet Thailand, a country of over 70 M population, being enormously rich has never made a sizable contribution to the World in any field, be it science, technology, arts...

Reasons are deeply entrenched in so called 'Thai Culture' which starts at birth in Thai Education System. It is not accidentally that Thai Ed Minister acknowledged this country's shortfalls. Will the situation change? I'm afraid not...

Traditional Nepotism, Corruption, Lawlessness, Social inequality, Lack of Education, Authoritarian Attitudes, Xenophobia on all levels permeate the society from East to West and South to North precluding any changes.

And progress is change.

I am not sure Thais need change. They surely do not want it. Therefore nobody must expect miraculous leaps in progress here. And God save us from any Revolutions!

This lovely, happy and warm country is full of talented people but simply has no social conditions to produce people with revolutionary ideas who move progress and change. Perhaps we should leave it as it is...

Edited May 18, 2013 by ABCer

[asupeartea]

World says Thailand lacks thinkers of all kinds.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies are deleted. This topic is about scientists, not businessmen

[Thai at Heart]

Hiding in the business pages of the other paper is rather aptly an explanation if Thai patent law, particularly the relationship between employer and employee and compensation.

Seems rather loaded in the interest of the employer. It states for example that should there be a disagreement over what should be paid to the employee, his position and salary will be considered in terms of benefits paid.

Great, be a 50k per month, invent something with billions and they consider this issue?

[MaxLee]

There is nothing inherently wrong with Thais as compared to other peoples.

Yet Thailand, a country of over 70 M population, being enormously rich has never made a sizable contribution to the World in any field, be it science, technology, arts...

Reasons are deeply entrenched in so called 'Thai Culture' which starts at birth in Thai Education System. It is not accidentally that Thai Ed Minister acknowledged this country's shortfalls. Will the situation change? I'm afraid not...

Traditional Nepotism, Corruption, Lawlessness, Social inequality, Lack of Education, Authoritarian Attitudes, Xenophobia on all levels permeate the society from East to West and South to North precluding any changes.

And progress is change.

I am not sure Thais need change. They surely do not want it. Therefore nobody must expect miraculous leaps in progress here. And God save us from any Revolutions!

This lovely, happy and warm country is full of talented people but simply has no social conditions to produce people with revolutionary ideas who move progress and change. Perhaps we should leave it as it is...

Like I said before, it is not like that Thai people are stupid or something like that. No Human being on earth is stupid. BUT unfortunately they are misguided-brainwashed by the rich and powerful RULING political clan elite, to keep them APPEAR stupid.

Thailand is held back by it's own rich Thai-(Chinese) political feudal ministry-clan elite mafias, who stubbornly strive in enriching themselves on the Nation's taxpayers' money, campaign for empty populist policies, to lure the poor into many SCAMS, provide ZERO substance infrastructure plans, which instead suck trillions of Megaproject Baht dry

Secondly, not many rich families in Thailand would ever engage their "spoiled children" into dirty, boring work like science, engineering, machinery construction or environmental studies,....God forbid, that would be a huge loss of face in their clan circles. They'd rather put their brats into convenient, family clan offices, full of corruption and doctrine brainwashing environment, shielded away from what's happening in the global international world.

And if anybody, ESPECIALLY scientists or environmental groups dare to speak up to them,... they're gonna get shot dead like a dog.

"Truth and knowledge" is too dangerous for the ruling rich Thai feudal political mafia elite, and they will continue to dump it down until the point of no return....

[Card]

There is nothing inherently wrong with Thais as compared to other peoples.

Yet Thailand, a country of over 70 M population, being enormously rich has never made a sizable contribution to the World in any field, be it science, technology, arts...

Reasons are deeply entrenched in so called 'Thai Culture' which starts at birth in Thai Education System.

I could name dozens of countries like that if u need to. Thailand is no exception. However, you could cite their cuisine which is full of innovation compared to the west. And there are Thai restaurants everywhere in the world. And what do you know about rice farming? They have some pretty good varieties of rice developed here and they eat it all over the world. In fact the Americans copy their varieties and then patent them for their own profit! Edited May 18, 2013 by Card

[utalkin2me]

^Off topic, but I think it is pertinent here. There is another thread going in the DIY housing section. There are these VERY cheap and easily installed pipes you can fit under a sink or shower called P-traps, or more descriptively "U-bends". An utterly simple bend in the right place in piping can all but eliminate smells by trapping water, which the gases can't penetrate well.

Anyway, they wont install them here. I don't know what else to say? One poster said "I am not sure Thais need change. They surely do not want it.", and I think that is true to some extent, but I really think the DO want it, they just don't know it. It is a very difficult situation to describe. If you take this one example, do you think Thais would really deny the bliss of no smell at no extra cost? I don't know, I guess it is up to us all to ponder they whats, hows and the whys of all this.

[Card]

"Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana said during the opening of the science scholarship program that Thailand has taken out very few patents when compared to other countries."

One of the main reasons that so few apply for scholarships is that the Ministry of Education has an abysmalrecord of educating Thai children. If the way to becoming a scientist was learning by rote and not by asking questions of the teachers or original thinking then Thailand would be a world leader.

Firstly get rid of ALL the education ministers and ALL the civil servants over 25 years old and replace them wioth farangs on the condition that the farang teachers train the Thais into their job. When that happens and a child asks a Thai teacher a question that the teacher does not know the answer too the teachers response must be, I'm sorry that I don't know the answer. However I WILL find out and get back to you as soon as I know.

That is when Thai education is working.

Huggh? The Thai teacher's response should be to guide kid on how he can find the answer for himself instead of asking someone else.

If the teacher did what you suggest, what will happen the next time a child asks the same question? The teacher will still not know the answer. Perhaps a combination of both working together would be better.

huggh? What you do is tell the kid to find out the answer for himself and guide him to find out from genuine sources, rather than the first return of a Google search. You tell him that you will also look and see if they come up with the same answer. Then when the next kid comes up with the same question, you follow the same pattern whether you know the answer or not.

What kids need educating about is how to find out answers and solutions for themselves and to persevere until they come up with the best answer and to evaluate sources of info properly. That is far more important than to come up with an answer that is approximate or quick and ESPECIALLY to get an answer just by asking a teacher. What if, in the future, they don't have a teacher to ask? Panic?

[Thai at Heart]

"Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana said during the opening of the science scholarship program that Thailand has taken out very few patents when compared to other countries."

One of the main reasons that so few apply for scholarships is that the Ministry of Education has an abysmalrecord of educating Thai children. If the way to becoming a scientist was learning by rote and not by asking questions of the teachers or original thinking then Thailand would be a world leader.

Firstly get rid of ALL the education ministers and ALL the civil servants over 25 years old and replace them wioth farangs on the condition that the farang teachers train the Thais into their job. When that happens and a child asks a Thai teacher a question that the teacher does not know the answer too the teachers response must be, I'm sorry that I don't know the answer. However I WILL find out and get back to you as soon as I know.

That is when Thai education is working.

Huggh? The Thai teacher's response should be to guide kid on how he can find the answer for himself instead of asking someone else.

If the teacher did what you suggest, what will happen the next time a child asks the same question? The teacher will still not know the answer. Perhaps a combination of both working together would be better.

huggh? What you do is tell the kid to find out the answer for himself and guide him to find out from genuine sources, rather than the first return of a Google search. You tell him that you will also look and see if they come up with the same answer. Then when the next kid comes up with the same question, you follow the same pattern whether you know the answer or not.

What kids need educating about is how to find out answers and solutions for themselves and to persevere until they come up with the best answer and to evaluate sources of info properly. That is far more important than to come up with an answer that is approximate or quick and ESPECIALLY to get an answer just by asking a teacher. What if, in the future, they don't have a

teacher to ask? Panic?

Wait for the pooyai to tell them what to do.....

[Card]

I read an article recently that said that to encourage innovation in kids, they have to be BORED! Quite right. The problem with a lot of education these days is that electronic devices especially have become a tool to keep kids quiet, rather than as a tool to educate them. If kids are bored, they have a natural compulsion to energize themselves and to do that they will pick up something and play with it and experiment with it and make things from it and use it as a story in their imagination. That's what makes inventors. Mobile phones and computers are in many ways a disincentive to make kids do things for themselves. Of course there are programs that encourage innovation in kids, and maybe these should be used more in education inn Thailand. But it also applies equally in the west.

Maybe 1 exercise would be to remove all electronic devices from a kid, stick him in an empty room with an elastic band, a couple of chop sticks, a piece of paper and some glue and tell him you want him to make something better than a Boeing Dreamliner or he doesn't get out to eat! YEAH, that's the answer!

[Markaew]

They have JUST worked this out.

Any teachers on here ever seen a school with anything resembling a science laboratory?

I know of one friend who was the son of some university lecturers in my home town. i was working down South for a while, and he explained his education to me very very well. He was scooped up from up country (and he admits that this was down to his parents, and good scores) and transported to a demonstration school where he showed some aptitude for chemistry and physics. At 16 he was sent overseas on a government scholarship and returned with an overseas degree in physics.

He promptly became part of a large oil company here in Thailand managing corrosion on pipelines, but was about to leave to do the same job back in Europe for approximately 10 times his salary in Thailand. He has a brother who went to the USA and works for GM in the USA on engine development. Toyota Thailand tried to head hunt him and offered a salary 10 times less than he has in the USA.

So there we have it, Thailand doesn't produce scientists because the business models here extend to family majority ownership, or business connection ownership who don't see the value in innovation and invention. The top salary belongs to the owner, and the business model relies extremely heavily on having cheap workers, not innovators. Do you think a company in Thailand would pay royalties to an in house patent creator on the going international rate?

Would I encourage my son to become an engineer, indeed. Would I encourage him to work for the stultifying atmosphere present in most Thai companies? Never. Do it yourself or get out of the country.

And don't forget if YOU are innovative then someone else lost face.

[Markaew]

"Education Minister Pongthep Thepkanjana said during the opening of the science scholarship program that Thailand has taken out very few patents when compared to other countries."

One of the main reasons that so few apply for scholarships is that the Ministry of Education has an abysmalrecord of educating Thai children. If the way to becoming a scientist was learning by rote and not by asking questions of the teachers or original thinking then Thailand would be a world leader.

Firstly get rid of ALL the education ministers and ALL the civil servants over 25 years old and replace them wioth farangs on the condition that the farang teachers train the Thais into their job. When that happens and a child asks a Thai teacher a question that the teacher does not know the answer too the teachers response must be, I'm sorry that I don't know the answer. However I WILL find out and get back to you as soon as I know.

That is when Thai education is working.

Unless you are prepared to pay the specialist farangs a high Pay rate $100 to 200 grand year , no one would be interested in coming , like it is now, also don't forget the trainee's need to have a very good understanding of English, something that you wont see either.

Well you see, the very first they have to do is to allow foreign companies into the market without having to risk having a Thai partner. In this model, the Thai partner is in the box seat, and the foreign company brings all of the know how, a big wedge of the cash and an awful lot of the know how. This model in and of itself is utterly stultifying to career development of employees and inhibits entrepreneuralism. Why?

Because the Thai partner is already planning how to drive salaries to the absolute bottom to feather his own nest and give his son a job to create an wealth acquiring business, not a wealth creating business.He has been given the golden egg on a plate because of existing wealth and connections. This relies on barriers to entry for others, because not every foreign company will take this route, they will take a route where they can own their company 100%. Just look at the extremely wealthy businesses in Thailand, nearly all of them rely on protected business models and low wages by international standards.

The possibility that an employee can rise to the top of management is there, but the family still retains their 50% shareholding and often want to extort an above average return by iinternational standards. So where is the incentive to really invest in R&D? Very little. Keep the business running, keep others out, and make hay. The wealthiest man in the country gets rich on the back of a share holding in an energy drink company overseas, and the second wealthiest gets rich on the back of producing chicken, pork and 7-11. Hardly ground breaking stuff.

Could you imagine if a Thai person came up with an idea that would revolutionize any market that was dominated by existing Thai companies? He or she would not get a baht in funding from anyone. They would co-opt him into the company and take the idea for themselves. Something will give one day, but the reality of all of this protectionism for business is actually becoming a brake on the Thai economy not a benefit.

I agreed with everything you said until you got to "Something will give one day".

Nope.