Severance Pay

[dirKNirk]

I've read several posts regarding severance pay. The school I've worked at for 2 years let me know 5 days before the school year started that they wouldn't be hiring me back.

Of course, the contract had actually finished 2 months earlier (Mar 15), but from the posts I've read, that seems not to matter regarding getting the severance pay.

Also, I was teaching with a photo copied not-real degree (which they requested I supply and full well knew about, though of course there's no proof of this). If I'm even eligible, would going through the process of trying to get severance bring something like this to light and cause a problem for me.

Is the process generally successful regarding getting compensation?

Thanks

[Scott]

You are in a real Catch 22. If you are due severance pay (and I don't know that you are), I doubt that you will get an amount that will pay for submitting a fraudulent degree. The issues are two separate cases, however.

[dirKNirk]

You are in a real Catch 22. If you are due severance pay (and I don't know that you are), I doubt that you will get an amount that will pay for submitting a fraudulent degree. The issues are two separate cases, however.

That's what I mean. Would the degree likely come to light while trying to get severance? Or it's impossible to know until in the thick of it...?

What dictates whether I'm due severance? I worked there for 2 years. 2 separate 1 year contracts...

Edited May 18, 2013 by dirKNirk

[Scott]

In theory, and according to those posting on here, it depends on the type of school. If you work for a gov't school, then you are maybe entitled to severance pay. If it was a private school, it maybe covered under a provision of the Private School Act that exempts schools from paying severance, or so people believe.

I always advise people to check with the MOL in your area, they will help you out. Whether the school decides to broach the issue of a dodgy degree depends on all kinds of things, including whether they remember or feel that they will lose face. The degree, however, is a different issue to your employee right to severance.

Perhaps other posters have some insight into this issue.

[wayned]

If your contract expired 2 months ago and you were paid to the end of contract and you have not signed a new contract you are not entitled to any severance pay. The school telling you that they will sign a new contract next year without signing the contract doesn't entitle you to any additional pay.

[sirchai]

If your contract expired 2 months ago and you were paid to the end of contract and you have not signed a new contract you are not entitled to any severance pay. The school telling you that they will sign a new contract next year without signing the contract doesn't entitle you to any additional pay.

+ 1

I've read several posts regarding severance pay. The school I've worked at for 2 years let me know 5 days before the school year started that they wouldn't be hiring me back.

Schools usually make sure that they keep a teacher who's doing a great job. Including extension of visa and work permit.-

Edited May 20, 2013 by sirchai

[Kilgore Trout]

I've read several posts regarding severance pay. The school I've worked at for 2 years let me know 5 days before the school year started that they wouldn't be hiring me back.

 

Of course, the contract had actually finished 2 months earlier (Mar 15), but from the posts I've read, that seems not to matter regarding getting the severance pay.

 

Also, I was teaching with a photo copied not-real degree (which they requested I supply and full well knew about, though of course there's no proof of this). If I'm even eligible, would going through the process of trying to get severance bring something like this to light and cause a problem for me.

 

Is the process generally successful regarding getting compensation?

 

Thanks

I'm confused, are you saying your degree is fake?

If so then you are a fraud and a criminal imo.

Also against forum rules to discuss illegal activity

If i'm off base apologies, please clarify

Sent from my GT-S5660 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[brucetefl]

Severance Pay
Employees are entitled to severance pay in accordance to salary, based on the duration of employment (working period) as follows.
• 120 days ˂ Working Period ˂ 1 year 30 days severance pay
• 1 year ≤ Working Period ˂ 3 years 90 days severance pay
• 3 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 6 years 180 days severance pay
• 6 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 10 years 240 days severance pay
• 10 years ≤ Working Period 300 days severance pay

[wayned]

Nice quote, but from where and in what country? An employment contract is a contract and when it ends, it ends. If the employee is paid in full according to the T's and C's of the contract then severance pay does not apply!

[singa-traz]

Nice quote, but from where and in what country? An employment contract is a contract and when it ends, it ends. If the employee is paid in full according to the T's and C's of the contract then severance pay does not apply!

Even if this is a fix term contract, but has been renewed, it could then be considered the same as full time employment, and would be covered by severance pay.

This is to prevent employer to offer fix term contract and keep on renewing them, just to avoid their exposure to severance pay.

Number provided are for Thailand.

http://thailandlabor.com/severance-claim.html

[culicine]

Teacher worked for us for 7 years and let go at the end of the contract - private school; went to the labour department wan it was pointed out he was not due any severance. So my understanding from this is that continuing contracts are not considered 'permanent employment'. Another teacher was terminated mid contract without due cause and was paid about 9 months severance - my interpretation of that is that the correct termination procedure was not followed.

[Scott]

Severance Pay

Employees are entitled to severance pay in accordance to salary, based on the duration of employment (working period) as follows.

• 120 days ˂ Working Period ˂ 1 year 30 days severance pay

• 1 year ≤ Working Period ˂ 3 years 90 days severance pay

• 3 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 6 years 180 days severance pay

• 6 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 10 years 240 days severance pay

• 10 years ≤ Working Period 300 days severance pay

According to the widely accepted interpretation of the law, the above regulation does not apply to private schools. There is a private school's Act which exempts them from certain laws and regulations.

Again, it is ALWAYS a good idea to check with the labor department because there are a large number of variables which may affect the case.

Culicine, in your example, some people have argued that it is continuous employment, but the school may have been exempted because it is private.

[electric blue]

What exactly can you class as private schools? Do language centres count? International schools? Bilinguals?

[dirKNirk]

If your contract expired 2 months ago and you were paid to the end of contract and you have not signed a new contract you are not entitled to any severance pay. The school telling you that they will sign a new contract next year without signing the contract doesn't entitle you to any additional pay.

+ 1

I've read several posts regarding severance pay. The school I've worked at for 2 years let me know 5 days before the school year started that they wouldn't be hiring me back.

Schools usually make sure that they keep a teacher who's doing a great job. Including extension of visa and work permit.-

Usually people who have basic comprehension skills and understand English are able to stay on topic as well.

[dirKNirk]

I've read several posts regarding severance pay. The school I've worked at for 2 years let me know 5 days before the school year started that they wouldn't be hiring me back.

Of course, the contract had actually finished 2 months earlier (Mar 15), but from the posts I've read, that seems not to matter regarding getting the severance pay.

Also, I was teaching with a photo copied not-real degree (which they requested I supply and full well knew about, though of course there's no proof of this). If I'm even eligible, would going through the process of trying to get severance bring something like this to light and cause a problem for me.

Is the process generally successful regarding getting compensation?

Thanks

I'm confused, are you saying your degree is fake?

If so then you are a fraud and a criminal imo.

Also against forum rules to discuss illegal activity

If i'm off base apologies, please clarify

Sent from my GT-S5660 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

As Scott said, it's two different issues. My concern was whether I was due any severance and whether or not the process would bring my credentials to light. Whether I'm a fraud and a criminal... Well there are degrees, aren't there? And I'm not talking about the ones you get on paper.

Someone already posted in the thread, that the contract is finished, thus they don't owe me any severance. This seems perfectly fair and I would find it strange for it to be any other way. However, I had seen several posts regarding this that made it sound like even if your contract was finished and they didn't rehire you, that you would be due severance. Again, this doesn't make sense to me, but that's what I gathered from several posts I've read and was just trying to get clarification.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dirKNirk

[Arkady]

Thai law recognises the contract in as much as the employer would have to pay wages in full for the balance of the contract, if it is terminated before the end, unless there is also a notice period specified. But I don't think the employment is deemed to be ongoing for severance pay purposes at the end of the contract, as it would be in UK employment law. There has been a whole issue for decades of Thai employers using contract and subcontract labour on 3 month contacts to give themselves the flexibility of cutting the labour force without severance costs. Labour movements and unions have been systematically suppressed since they tried to emerge in the 50s and 60s. Even with Thaksinite popularism nothing has been done about labour rights because the party is owned by ruthless capitalists and crumbs are thrown to peasants as long as they stay on the farms only. So you are dealing with an issue that is really nothing to do with farang teachers.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Arkady

[culicine]

Severance Pay

Employees are entitled to severance pay in accordance to salary, based on the duration of employment (working period) as follows.

• 120 days ˂ Working Period ˂ 1 year 30 days severance pay

• 1 year ≤ Working Period ˂ 3 years 90 days severance pay

• 3 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 6 years 180 days severance pay

• 6 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 10 years 240 days severance pay

• 10 years ≤ Working Period 300 days severance pay

According to the widely accepted interpretation of the law, the above regulation does not apply to private schools. There is a private school's Act which exempts them from certain laws and regulations.

Again, it is ALWAYS a good idea to check with the labor department because there are a large number of variables which may affect the case.

Culicine, in your example, some people have argued that it is continuous employment, but the school may have been exempted because it is private.

Severance Pay

Employees are entitled to severance pay in accordance to salary, based on the duration of employment (working period) as follows.

• 120 days ˂ Working Period ˂ 1 year 30 days severance pay

• 1 year ≤ Working Period ˂ 3 years 90 days severance pay

• 3 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 6 years 180 days severance pay

• 6 years ≤ Working Period ˂ 10 years 240 days severance pay

• 10 years ≤ Working Period 300 days severance pay

According to the widely accepted interpretation of the law, the above regulation does not apply to private schools. There is a private school's Act which exempts them from certain laws and regulations.

Again, it is ALWAYS a good idea to check with the labor department because there are a large number of variables which may affect the case.

Culicine, in your example, some people have argued that it is continuous employment, but the school may have been exempted because it is private.

I've also heard about the continuous employment argument, but have never seen or heard of anyone getting anything in a Private school when they are not offered a new contract. However, as you say, many variables come into play, such as unjustified termination during a contract, where it appeared a fellow teach got a lot of compensation. In a government school I've no idea how it works, but it would appear that those teachers have a better chance of compensation.

Sadly, very few posters will come on TV and post about their experience - whether they got/didn't receive compensation and the surrounding circumstances. It's scary to think my school could not offer me a new contract, and I would not be due 300 days severance. Our terminated teachers are lucky to get a month!

[ajarnsiam]

The severance pay entitlements quoted above (ranging from 120 days to 10 years) relate to redundancy payouts, not normal severance.

Normal severance terms are determined by the notice period in the contract.

As you did not have a contract when you were "terminated" and you are not a Thai citizen (presumably) you have no claim - obviously a rolling contract cannot be construed as permanent for someone who does not have permanent residence; in fact the dependency is the other way round - you have limited residence because of your employment contract.

If, as you say, other foreign teachers have received a final payment in the same circumstances, then I think their employers have been very generous, or misunderstood the law.

If I had been working on a fake degree certificate, I would quietly leave the situation alone. I think the school would almost certainly raise the issue if you claim, possibly even citing the fake degree as a reason for not continuing to employ you (which may actually be true, as the application of the rules is tighening up). The low possibility of receiving one month's pay, which I'm guessing is the maximum you'd be entiled to under the terms of your old contract, is far outweighed by the potential legal consequences of working with a fake degree for 2 years. I agree 100% with Scott that these issues are separate legal points, but they are bound to get connected if you claim imho,

cheers.

[dirKNirk]

The severance pay entitlements quoted above (ranging from 120 days to 10 years) relate to redundancy payouts, not normal severance.

Normal severance terms are determined by the notice period in the contract.

As you did not have a contract when you were "terminated" and you are not a Thai citizen (presumably) you have no claim - obviously a rolling contract cannot be construed as permanent for someone who does not have permanent residence; in fact the dependency is the other way round - you have limited residence because of your employment contract.

If, as you say, other foreign teachers have received a final payment in the same circumstances, then I think their employers have been very generous, or misunderstood the law.

If I had been working on a fake degree certificate, I would quietly leave the situation alone. I think the school would almost certainly raise the issue if you claim, possibly even citing the fake degree as a reason for not continuing to employ you (which may actually be true, as the application of the rules is tighening up). The low possibility of receiving one month's pay, which I'm guessing is the maximum you'd be entiled to under the terms of your old contract, is far outweighed by the potential legal consequences of working with a fake degree for 2 years. I agree 100% with Scott that these issues are separate legal points, but they are bound to get connected if you claim imho,

cheers.

This is more or less how I figured it. It didn't make sense that once a contract was finished a person would be due severance, but I had seen several posts alluding to the possibility, so figured I'd ask and get a clearer answer. Cheers.

[Scott]

Let's be clear about one thing. If you were entitled to severance, the fact that the contract had ended would not alter the fact. You have a certain amount of time to file any legal action.

[dirKNirk]

Let's be clear about one thing. If you were entitled to severance, the fact that the contract had ended would not alter the fact. You have a certain amount of time to file any legal action.

You say if. Well what entitles someone or doesn't entitle someone to severance? I worked for them for two years on two contracts. The contract ended 15 MAR 2013. I mean to say, this isn't laid out somewhere?

[Scott]

I just wanted to be clear that because your contract is over, you still have options to pursue severance. If you think or you find out that you are entitled, you can go for it.

[pigeonjake]

hi all,

im not a teacher, just being nosy,

just my thoughts on the outside, if you were on a fake degree and that came to light, they might want money back from you, for working with a fake degree for 2 years

[dirKNirk]

Not that it matters to the HHB, but I sat down with this school and told them the blunt truth regarding my lack of a degree. They, in not so many words (it was more like a subtle head nod of affirmation), told me to make a fake one.

[singa-traz]

The severance pay entitlements quoted above (ranging from 120 days to 10 years) relate to redundancy payouts, not normal severance.

Normal severance terms are determined by the notice period in the contract.

As you did not have a contract when you were "terminated" and you are not a Thai citizen (presumably) you have no claim - obviously a rolling contract cannot be construed as permanent for someone who does not have permanent residence; in fact the dependency is the other way round - you have limited residence because of your employment contract.

If, as you say, other foreign teachers have received a final payment in the same circumstances, then I think their employers have been very generous, or misunderstood the law.

If I had been working on a fake degree certificate, I would quietly leave the situation alone. I think the school would almost certainly raise the issue if you claim, possibly even citing the fake degree as a reason for not continuing to employ you (which may actually be true, as the application of the rules is tighening up). The low possibility of receiving one month's pay, which I'm guessing is the maximum you'd be entiled to under the terms of your old contract, is far outweighed by the potential legal consequences of working with a fake degree for 2 years. I agree 100% with Scott that these issues are separate legal points, but they are bound to get connected if you claim imho,

cheers.

My understanding of Thai Labor Law is that rolling contract will be considered as permanent contract, whether you are Thai/Foreigner, permanent or not permanent resident.

But apparently, Teachers at Private school are excluded from the labor protection act. (Do a search "labor law thailand teacher").

Interesting how a certain profession can get less right than everyone else ... this obviously should be challenged in court.

[Scott]

hi all,

im not a teacher, just being nosy,

just my thoughts on the outside, if you were on a fake degree and that came to light, they might want money back from you, for working with a fake degree for 2 years

People have been caught with fake degrees. It is considered fraud and you can be fined, jailed and then deported. They are not going to get their money back.

[ajarnsiam]

The OP would not have any claim in any school in Thailand, private or public, or any other profession, because his employment was secured fraudulently; this is clearly spelled out in Thai labour law. (Dear OP please don't take this as a personal attack.)

Contract workers receive different conditions from permanent employees in western countries as well as in Thailand; indeed rolling 1 year contracts were introduced in western Europe precisely to differentiate workers into groups which have different rights (regardless of profession).

If anyone has any reliable info or link to show that in Thailand 1 year contracts for foreigners amount to a permanent contract with permanent workers' rights I'd be very interested to see it.

thanks

[singa-traz]

The OP would not have any claim in any school in Thailand, private or public, or any other profession, because his employment was secured fraudulently; this is clearly spelled out in Thai labour law. (Dear OP please don't take this as a personal attack.)

Contract workers receive different conditions from permanent employees in western countries as well as in Thailand; indeed rolling 1 year contracts were introduced in western Europe precisely to differentiate workers into groups which have different rights (regardless of profession).

If anyone has any reliable info or link to show that in Thailand 1 year contracts for foreigners amount to a permanent contract with permanent workers' rights I'd be very interested to see it.

thanks

Thai Labor Law does not differentiate between Thai and Foreign workers.

See info on back to back fixed period contract: http://www.tilleke.com/resources/debunking-myths-fixed-period-employment-contracts

So, if you do the same work, and have your contract renew back-to-back, it will be considered as a permanent contract.

[ajarnsiam]

@singa thanks for your diligence in searching out a reference, however the site you referenced is selling legal services so I would not take it as impartial myself; nevertheless, I did look for references to foreign workers in the link but could find none.

However, the link does confirm what I said in previous posts - in Thailand a fixed 12 month contract is a fixed 12 month contract, not a permanent contract; just the same as the rest of the world.

[thequietman]

The OP would not have any claim in any school in Thailand, private or public, or any other profession, because his employment was secured fraudulently; this is clearly spelled out in Thai labour law. (Dear OP please don't take this as a personal attack.)

Contract workers receive different conditions from permanent employees in western countries as well as in Thailand; indeed rolling 1 year contracts were introduced in western Europe precisely to differentiate workers into groups which have different rights (regardless of profession).

If anyone has any reliable info or link to show that in Thailand 1 year contracts for foreigners amount to a permanent contract with permanent workers' rights I'd be very interested to see it.

thanks

Thai Labor Law does not differentiate between Thai and Foreign workers.

See info on back to back fixed period contract: http://www.tilleke.com/resources/debunking-myths-fixed-period-employment-contracts

So, if you do the same work, and have your contract renew back-to-back, it will be considered as a permanent contract.

I think you need to read it again. I don't see anything that would suggest your findings. Sorry.