Do We Really Need Ground In Thailand?

[bankruatsteve]

So I'm helping a neighbor do her house for the electric. The idea is to do a split CU one with Safe-T-Cut and another for the circuits that don't need it. My quandary is: Why run the ground under the Safe-T-Cut circuits? Will put in 3-prong receptacles just to handle the things that might need it (it's for a farang in-law) but do they really need the ground? B/C there is almost nothing in Thailand that actually uses the ground wire and my thought is to run a ground just to places that will have a green wire to connect. Or, what do you think?

[Khun Jean]

Many things in Thailand have a ground wire. Fridge, freezer, washing machine, heater, pump etc. Basically everything that has a metal cover and is not double isolated.

Of course they are not connected, but that does not make it right and/or safe.

[Crossy]

No lecture I promise, just a few thoughts:

1. If it has a 3-pin plug it almost certainly needs a ground. It may be a functional ground (like your computer) or a safety ground (like your washing machine), it still needs it.
2. Watch out for appliances with a Schuko plug, they need a ground too, and an adaptor or correct outlet.
3. Nothing to stop you fitting some 2-pin outlets where only 2-pin devices will be plugged (lights, AV kit etc.). But of course, the fix for the locals is to break off the ground pin.
4. Under no circumstances fit a 3-pin outlet and then fail to connect the ground!
5. For an RCD to operate current must pass through the victim, the 30mA trip current whilst likely harmless to a healthy adult could be fatal to a child.
6. RCDs and RCBOs (Safe-T-Cuts) can and do fail.
7. The cost saving in wire and outlets is not great, the cost in terms of a life is!
8. Finally, all new installations must have grounding, MEN where appropriate, 3-pin outlets and an RCD. MEA/PEA may refuse to certify (and connect) installations that do not comply.

Like many in Thailand like to say, UP2U.

[bankruatsteve]

No lecture I promise, just a few thoughts:

1. If it has a 3-pin plug it almost certainly needs a ground. It may be a functional ground (like your computer) or a safety ground (like your washing machine), it still needs it.
2. Watch out for appliances with a Schuko plug, they need a ground too, and an adaptor or correct outlet.
3. Nothing to stop you fitting some 2-pin outlets where only 2-pin devices will be plugged (lights, AV kit etc.). But of course, the fix for the locals is to break off the ground pin.
4. Under no circumstances fit a 3-pin outlet and then fail to connect the ground!
5. For an RCD to operate current must pass through the victim, the 30mA trip current whilst likely harmless to a healthy adult could be fatal to a child.
6. RCDs and RCBOs (Safe-T-Cuts) can and do fail.
7. The cost saving in wire and outlets is not great, the cost in terms of a life is!
8. Finally, all new installations must have grounding, MEN where appropriate, 3-pin outlets and an RCD. MEA/PEA may refuse to certify (and connect) installations that do not comply.

Like many in Thailand like to say, UP2U.

OK - good advise as always. I would only question your #5-#6 as that has nothing to do with grounding. And Khun Jean, I realize that those devices you talk about have ground requirements, but they are almost always (here) through a separate ground wire. ie: not through the ground in the plug. Anyway... I will try to help the friend plan as suggested. Cheers.

[Crossy]

Steve. #5 and #6 are very much to do with the question "do we really need a ground in Thailand".

RCD's provide valuable protection against direct contact (touching a live wire) which of course is nothing to do with grounding.

However.

They also protect against indirect contact, for example when a Class-1 appliance that should be grounded isn't and then develops a L-E fault. This kind of fault would take out the MCB if correctly grounded, with no ground the metalwork becomes live and lethal. Touch it with an RCD in circuit and it trips (or it trips earlier due to leakage), touch it with no RCD (or a faulty RCD) and you may die!

The green pigtail that many appliances here seem to grow is there because many outlets are 2-pin and ungrounded, the appliance should have a grounded plug too which will do the job if a grounded outlet is available.

[lopburi3]

As said above having the ground wire/circuit will provide the ability to quickly trip the circuit breaker - hopefully before anyone touches the hot metal activating an RCD by providing an alternative path to ground. Install and use grounded circuits. That Safety-cut is great but just that - last chance safety. First should be grounded equipment.

[IMHO]

Why would you cable and install 3 pin sockets in a house and not spend another couple of thousand Baht for some THW wire and a copper rod?

Note that citing a reply here where someone says it's OK won't get you off the hook when your MIL does the electric boogaloo because what looked earthed wasn't - if you want to top her, do it some other way

Edited May 31, 2013 by IMHO

[bankruatsteve]

Why would you cable and install 3 pin sockets in a house and not spend another couple of thousand Baht for some THW wire and a copper rod?

Note that citing a reply here where someone says it's OK won't get you off the hook when your MIL does the electric boogaloo because what looked earthed wasn't - if you want to top her, do it some other way

Huh? Not sure where you are going with that. But, as stated, I will/am doing it "proper". My OP was just b/c I don't really see any proper grounding in Thailand. But, I'm running that green wire to all the places that need it. Yah.

[Artisi]

My 2 Baht's worth, many household items need grounding, fridge, washing machine, oven, clothes iron, some rice cookers, bathroom water heaters (even the ones fitted with earth-leakage device), computers, toaster, electric jug, aircon units etc. The cost of running a ground wire to all power outlets and fixed appliances is minimal compared to a life - then of course I guess it is how much you value a life at.

In my own home every power outlets was earthed (even though some may never have an earthed appliance plugged into them) and each power circuit was RCBO protected as well. Also any appliances fitted with Sukho plugs or 2 pin plugs and separate earth wire were rewired to 3 pin plugs. What did it cost in the overall house build - maybe a couple of thousand Baht - nothing when compared to peace of mind and the safety of other peoples lives.

[bankruatsteve]

My thoughts when OP for this were that, in my experience, there is almost nothing I have purchased in Thailand that actually uses the ground socket connection. I have an oven, water heaters, water pump, water cooler, refrigerator, etc. that have a green wire separate from the plug. So, I usually stick them under the plate and connect to the ground. But, they could probably be effectively grounded by connecting to just about anything. I have several other appliances (like a toaster) that has the ground pin removed. I have also de-constructed an extension 3-prong receptacle strip to find there was no connection to the ground pin. For me, the ONLY things I have that actually use the ground pin are purchased in the states.

So, my thinking is: if one has RCD protected circuits and almost nothing actually uses the ground circuit - then why bother? Ground on non-RCD circuits would be necessary for the just-in-case stuff that will use the ground.

Again, my point was: if nothing is connected to the ground, then it serves no purpose.

Aaagh.

[lopburi3]

I have not bought any computer equipment here that did not have a ground plug and most appliances at least have the Schuko plug (which has a ground if you buy the adapter) and newer units come with the Thai three round pins plug. For those earlier units that had green wire but only two pin plug have replaced running that wire to a three pin plug. A lot of cheap plastic extension box outlets appeared to be three pin as had the hole but they normally did not have three pin plug so easy to spot.

[IMHO]

My thoughts when OP for this were that, in my experience, there is almost nothing I have purchased in Thailand that actually uses the ground socket connection.

Plenty of devices in Thailand *want* a ground - the problem is they're most commonly supplied with Schucko (IEE7/7) plugs, where the earth is a hole or side connect - this is not an Earth-less plug!

The problem is, these types of plugs are in fact meant for Earthed sockets like this:

or this:

Note that Thailand does have it's own standard for 3-pin plugs; TIS 166-2549 but attempts to make them mandatory back in 2006 failed:

Edited June 4, 2013 by IMHO

[Crossy]

Yup IMHO

You can get Schuko - TIS adaptors, they look like this:

From HomePro etc.

[Artisi]

For convenience it just re wired using 3 pin plugs @ Bht 57 each, I went up-market and purchased the plugs fitted with a pilot light.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Crossy]

For convenience it just re wired using 3 pin plugs @ Bht 57 each, I went up-market and purchased the plugs fitted with a pilot light.

Yup also did for our appliances.

But remember cutting off the plug will likely invalidate your warranty so we use the adaptor on new kit and replace the plugs when it's out of warranty (or I need the adaptor for a new appliance).

[doglover]

bankruatsteve. When I wired my carport with attached guestroom and washroom I did what I believe you are wanting to do. I only ran 3 conductor lumex to receptacles that I knew would need a ground for planned appliances and these receptacles were three prong compatible.

Other areas I knew would only ever have two prong appliances plugged in (and with no metal casing) I ran a 2 conductor lumex and installed a 2 prong compatible receptacle. Of course it's my house and I understand what appliances grounding requirements are.

Now if I was helping a neighbour or a friend that means that they don't understand what is required. So to ensure their safety, and cover my own arse from any possible liability, I would advise them to run a 3 wire cable (or pull 3 single conductors for conduit) to every receptacle.

And if they decide to neglect your advice to connect an appliances coiled up ground wire to a ground terminal then at least you're off the hook.

[canopy]

Other areas I knew would only ever have two prong appliances plugged in (and with no metal casing) I ran a 2 conductor lumex and installed a 2 prong compatible receptacle.

I just don't get it. Running proper 3 wire would have been just as good so why not do it? Over time needs can change. People inhabiting the place can change. Deciding where not to have grounds is a ticking time bomb waiting for the moment someone eventually shoehorns a 3 prong appliance to it dangerously and that day will come. It's not if, but when. I would have sleeping at night if I took shortcuts like that and had to pray no one would ever use it differently than my original intention. I think the simple response to this thread is all outlets should be 3 prong. It's cheap, easy, better, and required by the power company. End of story.

[Crossy]

One thing I've done as a retrofit (and wish I'd thought of it when we built the house) is added multiple 2-pin outlets next to some of our 3-pin doubles.

You can get up to five 2-pin outlets in the same space as two 3-pin (not all ranges have these so you may have to hunt), great for the AV kit, lamps, fish tanks and mozzie killers, avoids trailing dizzy boards

[Artisi]

Good one - that never crossed my mind.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Crossy]

Good one - that never crossed my mind.

The ones we got are Haco M4-R50 http://www.hacothailand.com/product-thshow.php?Page=3&setype=1&setype2=1225&txts= they are surface mount but only about 1/2" deep, just screwed to the wall below the existing double 3-pin, angled hole drilled through to the existing back box for the two bits of 2.5mm² and good to go.

Looks like the flush mount ones max out at 3 x 2-pin

[Daffy D]

I bought a couple of those Haco switches thinking they had a built in neon light

Why do all their units, sockets as well as switches have that little window that makes it look like they all have pilot lights.

[doglover]

^^^

Turns out it's more of a 'glow in the dark' thingy. If you turn off the lights at night you will notice a faint glow. Another annoyance is that the on\off is reversed from normal switching. In my carport at home I just installed them upside down. But in the rental we are in during the week they have installed them as per manufacturer. So I never quit know on from off!

[Daffy D]

^^^

Turns out it's more of a 'glow in the dark' thingy. If you turn off the lights at night you will notice a faint glow. Another annoyance is that the on\off is reversed from normal switching. In my carport at home I just installed them upside down. But in the rental we are in during the week they have installed them as per manufacturer. So I never quit know on from off!

You would if they had pilot lights

[ThaidDown]

The 'glow in the dark' when a light is switched off is often caused by the neutral being switched, not the live.

The original question was ' Do we really need ground in Thailand'.....Apart from the fact that all new installations require it, consider what may happen if we do not have permanent earth installed....

There will come a time when due to a fault condition (even if you have a RCD/RCBO/GFI etc installed) a metallic part will become live, if you, or a loved one, touch this and there is no permanent earth then a temporary earth will be provided namely YOU. The consequences would range from a tingle to death. Do you feel lucky ?

[bankruatsteve]

The 'glow in the dark' when a light is switched off is often caused by the neutral being switched, not the live.

The original question was ' Do we really need ground in Thailand'.....Apart from the fact that all new installations require it, consider what may happen if we do not have permanent earth installed....

There will come a time when due to a fault condition (even if you have a RCD/RCBO/GFI etc installed) a metallic part will become live, if you, or a loved one, touch this and there is no permanent earth then a temporary earth will be provided namely YOU. The consequences would range from a tingle to death. Do you feel lucky ?

I think the reference to "glow in the dark" was to the Hako switch - which would not be affected by neutral switch.

RCD will protect any fault leakage (ie: to a person or thing). Again, ground will only "protect" if it's connected to something.

Edited June 7, 2013 by bankruatsteve

[ThaidDown]

RCD will protect any fault leakage (ie: to a person or thing)

Yes, agreed, but as mentioned in this thread before, they can fail. Then...

[Crossy]

A thought, RCDs do not need a ground to operate, but they do work better and provide better safety if a ground is provided.

OK, if someone can come up with a sound engineering reason why a Class-1 appliance with a manufacturer's notice on it saying "This appliance must be earthed" can be operated safely with no ground connection, I'm all ears.

[IMHO]

A thought, RCDs do not need a ground to operate, but they do work better and provide better safety if a ground is provided.

OK, if someone can come up with a sound engineering reason why a Class-1 appliance with a manufacturer's notice on it saying "This appliance must be earthed" can be operated safely with no ground connection, I'm all ears.

I got nothin'

[bankruatsteve]

A thought, RCDs do not need a ground to operate, but they do work better and provide better safety if a ground is provided.

Can you elaborate on that? If ground is not connected to the RCD or neutral (which, as far as I can see, is the norm up-country at least), how could it work any better/worse with/without grounding?

[Crossy]

Ok.

As I'm sure you know an RCD works by measuring the difference between the current in the Live wire and the current in the Neutral wire. If the difference is greater than the trip rating of the RCD (30mA) it assumes it's going somewhere it shouldn't and trips.

Now say we have a washing machine with a metal case and it's not earthed.

This machine now develops a fault L to case and the case becomes live.

Along comes Mrs Steve and touches the case, assuming the RCD is functional current will flow through Mrs Steve to ground and the RCD will trip.

Note that this current is only limited by body resistance (not the RCD) and could well be much greater than 30mA, maybe a couple of hundred mA or even more if wet hands and feet are involved. The RCD opens within 30ms or so and cuts off the flow.

The 50.50.50 rule is often quoted, 50V or 50mA or 50ms, limit a shock to below any of those and it's non-lethal (probably). The problem, is that whilst a healthy adult should be OK, someone with a dodgy ticker or a young child may not survive.

If the same machine is grounded and develops the same L to case fault the fault current immediately flows to ground via the ground wire and the RCD opens, without having to flow through Mrs Steve or anyone else. Everyone will be fine, even the very young or those with heart problems.