Do We Really Need Ground In Thailand?

[lopburi3]

And in the event the RCD/breaker fails the fault to ground will likely blow something upstream and still protect from any contact shock.

[Crossy]

And in the event the RCD/breaker fails the fault to ground will likely blow something upstream and still protect from any contact shock.

Depends upon how good the ground is, TT probably won't open an MCB, but if it's TNC-S or TN-S then yes the MCB is likely to open.

New Thai installations are supposed to be TNC-S with MEN and a front end RCD.

[bankruatsteve]

Thanks Crossy for the good explanation of why class 1 appliances do need the ground as required. Certainly nothing worth quibbling about, but I would say that the RCD will function exactly the same with/without ground but enhances protection either way.

[Crossy]

Thanks Crossy for the good explanation of why class 1 appliances do need the ground as required. Certainly nothing worth quibbling about, but I would say that the RCD will function exactly the same with/without ground but enhances protection either way.

Perhaps I should have said "An RCD when used in a properly grounded system will provide enhanced protection from indirect contact shock over that provided by an RCD when used alone in an ungrounded system".

Anyway, it's pretty obvious you're going to go your own way with this installation. Entirely up to you as I am becoming bored with this conversation.

[bankruatsteve]

Thanks Crossy for the good explanation of why class 1 appliances do need the ground as required. Certainly nothing worth quibbling about, but I would say that the RCD will function exactly the same with/without ground but enhances protection either way.

Perhaps I should have said "An RCD when used in a properly grounded system will provide enhanced protection from indirect contact shock over that provided by an RCD when used alone in an ungrounded system".

Anyway, it's pretty obvious you're going to go your own way with this installation. Entirely up to you as I am becoming bored with this conversation.

OK cheers. I do want to clarify that I am doing this all according to "code" and as you initially suggested. While the additional expense for grounding may be trivial to most of us, it is significant to this family. But, they want to do it proper. My OP was simply to get you and others input and comments for this and thank you all for that.

[Phronesis]

Seeking to earth and residential or commercial premise in Thailand is entirely unnecessary and a waste of time and money.

Every one here wears rubber flip flops...

[Artisi]

Yep, ideal protection in the wet area of you bathroom, it helps if they are black then you don't see the burn marks in the rubber soles.

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[Beardog]

Not to mention that all water pumps to get water into your house needs to be grounded. No ground could be very bad if the pump portion breaks & is pouring water over the motor parts. Having a good ground saved one of our Mitsubishi pumps when it got submerged(Non submersible type EP305)

[thaibeachlovers]

Having bought several appliances recently, I can safely say that many new appliances have a 3 pin plug, even the iron, and of course the fridges have a seperate earth wire.

[Artisi]

So did mine, I just bought a length of 3 core flex and rewired it.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[doglover]

It was mentioned that one may not want to change the cord of the appliance for a 3 conductor until the warranty is finished.

Is there some sort of 3 prong gizmo that the provided ground wire with the appliance could be terminated onto the ground prong of the gizmo?

Then the gizmo is plugged into the 3 prong receptacle. And finally the two prong cord of the appliance plugged into the gizmo?

I recently looked for such a gizmo in Home Pro and Global House and did not see anything.

[Crossy]

DL.

If your appliance has a Schuko plug like this:

You can get an adapter like this:

If it just has a 2-pin plug and separate ground wire there are plenty of grounded double adapters about, plug the appliance into one side, connect the ground wire of the appliance to the ground pin of a 3-pin plug and plug into the other side of the adapter.

QED

[wpcoe]

Note that Thailand does have it's own standard for 3-pin plugs; TIS 166-2549 but attempts to make them mandatory back in 2006 failed:[/size]

And, god bless the engineer(s) who designed that Thai standard plug with the three equal-sized, equidistant prongs. Yes, I managed to blow up my microwave oven by one time managing to make contact in my outlet with the plug rotated about 60 degrees.

There's probably a very good argument as to why a ground prong should not fit an outlet's live wire?

[IMHO]

Note that Thailand does have it's own standard for 3-pin plugs; TIS 166-2549 but attempts to make them mandatory back in 2006 failed:[/size]

And, god bless the engineer(s) who designed that Thai standard plug with the three equal-sized, equidistant prongs. Yes, I managed to blow up my microwave oven by one time managing to make contact in my outlet with the plug rotated about 60 degrees.

There's probably a very good argument as to why a ground prong should not fit an outlet's live wire?

Are you sure they're equidistant? I haven't measured it, but it sure looks like the ground is closer to A and N compared to A <--> N.

[Crossy]

Are you sure they're equidistant? I haven't measured it, but it sure looks like the ground is closer to A and N compared to A <--> N.

Not equidistant and should be impossible to insert incorrectly.

No guarantees if you're trying to get one into a 'universal' outlet mind

[doglover]

If it just has a 2-pin plug and separate ground wire there are plenty of grounded double adapters about, plug the appliance into one side, connect the ground wire of the appliance to the ground pin of a 3-pin plug and plug into the other side of the adapter.

QED

Yes I realized that. I was just looking for something a little cleaner. But have not found the gizmo I described.

Surprisingly, I also have not yet found a grounded adapter. All I have found is a bulky yellow and black weather resistant 3 prong cord end which I have exclusively for the ground wire.

[wpcoe]

Trust me, I managed to blow the circuitry in the oven by inserting the prongs in the wrong holes.

Although the three prongs are not equidistant as I thought, it is still possible to insert (at an angle) the ground prong and another prong into the outlet a little ways, and apparently that little way was enough to make contact with the live wire:

[Crossy]

Of course I can't find it now, but a while back I bought an adaptor from Thai 2-flat + 1 round:

To this 'universal' outlet

From Toshino IIRC.

These come apart fairly easily, a hole drilled and a wire soldered to the ground connection (or it may have had a screw) and you can make the device you crave DL, add 1 chunk of a choc-bloc and all's good and neat too

[lopburi3]

Trust me, I managed to blow the circuitry in the oven by inserting the prongs in the wrong holes.

Although the three prongs are not equidistant as I thought, it is still possible to insert (at an angle) the ground prong and another prong into the outlet a little ways, and apparently that little way was enough to make contact with the live wire:

thai_3-prong_plug.jpg 3-round-pin-plug.jpg

I agree it can be done (easily) and it is an extremely bad design for Thailand outlets. Outlets conductors here are not recessed and are hot up to the top.

[gdhm]

Crossy kindly directed me from another active post to this one. Thanks Crossy very informative and helpful.

On the subject of 2 prong plugs....

When I came here 7 years and wanted a 3 pin L N & E plug for my wife to be's PC (gave nasty minor shocks without a ground). All I could find was either mostly Nothing or these ugly things.

Not nice to or quick wire either, but they did the job and do have 2 flat pins and one rounded (very cheap). Why the cable clamp end is so ugly and basic I do not know (maybe these plugs are intended for workmen on sites rather than domestic use but I would have to say they are made of brittle backerlite type material and not suited to knocks and being bashed around. Just slipping the plastic bit on to cover the pin wiring is not a great or robust idea.

Anyway they work & still work, appear safe enough and gave me my grounding.

Seems to me with a little more thought Thailand should have tried pushing this style of plug in the past (cleaned up of course as a standard).

Now my STILL major problem in Khon Kaen is finding any outlet be it small, specialized or like Global, HomePro and Home hub that sells ordinary (well in UK and Spain) appliance 3 core cable.

This has been a real pain over time as I always elect to connect Ground when there is a gorund wire.

Regards

Dave

[IMHO]

Crossy kindly directed me from another active post to this one. Thanks Crossy very informative and helpful.

On the subject of 2 prong plugs....

When I came here 7 years and wanted a 3 pin L N & E plug for my wife to be's PC (gave nasty minor shocks without a ground). All I could find was either mostly Nothing or these ugly things.

IMG_0016.jpg

Not nice to or quick wire either, but they did the job and do have 2 flat pins and one rounded (very cheap). Why the cable clamp end is so ugly and basic I do not know (maybe these plugs are intended for workmen on sites rather than domestic use but I would have to say they are made of brittle backerlite type material and not suited to knocks and being bashed around. Just slipping the plastic bit on to cover the pin wiring is not a great or robust idea.

Anyway they work & still work, appear safe enough and gave me my grounding.

Seems to me with a little more thought Thailand should have tried pushing this style of plug in the past (cleaned up of course as a standard).

Now my STILL major problem in Khon Kaen is finding any outlet be it small, specialized or like Global, HomePro and Home hub that sells ordinary (well in UK and Spain) appliance 3 core cable.

This has been a real pain over time as I always elect to connect Ground when there is a gorund wire.

Regards

Dave

I just buy 3-pin IEC leads, cut off the IEC end and rewire the device. In the case of a desktop PC, no need to cut the end off as it's going into an IEC socket anyway

http://www.homenet48.com/index.php?mo=30&cid=142265

[gdhm]

I do the same sort of thing IMHO via a local Mall (Kosa Centre) that has 2 floors dedicated to PC hardware, accessories & software but I have found one must be VERY careful. 3 pin IEC leads are not always earth wired . Some with thicker cable than others turn out to be with only L & N wires inside, whilst some thinner (maybe too thin) cabled adapters/extensions are in fact ground wired. I was fooled at first and bought a non grounded IEC connector but I tested for a ground wire when home and realized the potentially dangerous limitation. Now if I go to buy IEC leads etc. I take my multimeter and test L, N E are connected both ends.

I can sometimes get 3 core cable at Home Pro but ONLY as part of an extension lead and this is a costly method. I like to have cable and the 3 pin plugs I use because so often I find the 3/4/5 plug extension leads sold in Thailand have Live and Neutral wired (as in UK) differently from Thailand's convention I had my house wired with Thai conventions (as this was advised as preferable "when in Rome...") by that I mean Live and Neutral in the power outlets and switches on when UP is pressed (both different to UK). I therefore need to cut off the moulded plugs of the adapters/power extension sockets and fit a 3 plug and rewire so wiring is consistent with the wall outlet..

One thing I have learnt to do is if/when an appliance fails and not repaired is to cut off the cable (if is good condition). Usually electrical garden items like strimmers/mowers have 3 core cabling and usefully many metres in length. Waste not want not.

Not being an electrician I do not know the risk effect of L - N wire crossing over in extension sockets when appliances have Earth wired are plugged into them so I err on consistency being the safe option.

No doubt one of you experts can tell me if I worry too much about this and whether an RCBO would be adversely affected or fooled. I assume Earthed items expect L & N to be to a particular pin and not switched over.

Dave

[IMHO]

I do the same sort of thing IMHO via a local Mall (Kosa Centre) that has 2 floors dedicated to PC hardware, accessories & software but I have found one must be VERY careful. 3 pin IEC leads are not always earth wired . Some with thicker cable than others turn out to be with only L & N wires inside, whilst some thinner (maybe too thin) cabled adapters/extensions are in fact ground wired. I was fooled at first and bought a non grounded IEC connector but I tested for a ground wire when home and realized the potentially dangerous limitation. Now if I go to buy IEC leads etc. I take my multimeter and test L, N E are connected both ends.

I can sometimes get 3 core cable at Home Pro but ONLY as part of an extension lead and this is a costly method. I like to have cable and the 3 pin plugs I use because so often I find the 3/4/5 plug extension leads sold in Thailand have Live and Neutral wired (as in UK) differently from Thailand's convention I had my house wired with Thai conventions (as this was advised as preferable "when in Rome...") by that I mean Live and Neutral in the power outlets and switches on when UP is pressed (both different to UK). I therefore need to cut off the moulded plugs of the adapters/power extension sockets and fit a 3 plug and rewire so wiring is consistent with the wall outlet..

One thing I have learnt to do is if/when an appliance fails and not repaired is to cut off the cable (if is good condition). Usually electrical garden items like strimmers/mowers have 3 core cabling and usefully many metres in length. Waste not want not.

Not being an electrician I do not know the risk effect of L - N wire crossing over in extension sockets when appliances have Earth wired are plugged into them so I err on consistency being the safe option.

No doubt one of you experts can tell me if I worry too much about this and whether an RCBO would be adversely affected or fooled. I assume Earthed items expect L & N to be to a particular pin and not switched over.

Dave

I can confirm that both the 0.75mm2 and 300/500v 1mm2 cables at the link I supplied do indeed have an earth.

[thaibeachlovers]

Crossy kindly directed me from another active post to this one. Thanks Crossy very informative and helpful.

On the subject of 2 prong plugs....

When I came here 7 years and wanted a 3 pin L N & E plug for my wife to be's PC (gave nasty minor shocks without a ground). All I could find was either mostly Nothing or these ugly things.

IMG_0016.jpg

Not nice to or quick wire either, but they did the job and do have 2 flat pins and one rounded (very cheap). Why the cable clamp end is so ugly and basic I do not know (maybe these plugs are intended for workmen on sites rather than domestic use but I would have to say they are made of brittle backerlite type material and not suited to knocks and being bashed around. Just slipping the plastic bit on to cover the pin wiring is not a great or robust idea.

Anyway they work & still work, appear safe enough and gave me my grounding.

Seems to me with a little more thought Thailand should have tried pushing this style of plug in the past (cleaned up of course as a standard).

Now my STILL major problem in Khon Kaen is finding any outlet be it small, specialized or like Global, HomePro and Home hub that sells ordinary (well in UK and Spain) appliance 3 core cable.

This has been a real pain over time as I always elect to connect Ground when there is a gorund wire.

Regards

Dave

The local housing supplies store not far from me sells 3 core cable so perhaps you should try a smaller place.

I tried to buy a desktop from Big C and the new one they sold me gave me shocks! Needless to say it was back to them next day. Considering most houses here only have 2 pin outlets and no earths at all..................................

[bankruatsteve]

Just to say... you don't HAVE to have 3-core cable to run the ground. I've just been running (I won't say what size) green wire along with the 2-core through the conduit and whatever. It's no big deal. Actually, you don't need 3-core if you set up a ground "buss" and just tap into that: saves on running redundant ground wires.

I have also connected ground to the roof framing and use that for ground to the ceiling fans and any lights that really want it. (Tests good.)

Edited June 23, 2013 by bankruatsteve

[IMHO]

Crossy kindly directed me from another active post to this one. Thanks Crossy very informative and helpful.

On the subject of 2 prong plugs....

When I came here 7 years and wanted a 3 pin L N & E plug for my wife to be's PC (gave nasty minor shocks without a ground). All I could find was either mostly Nothing or these ugly things.

IMG_0016.jpg

Not nice to or quick wire either, but they did the job and do have 2 flat pins and one rounded (very cheap). Why the cable clamp end is so ugly and basic I do not know (maybe these plugs are intended for workmen on sites rather than domestic use but I would have to say they are made of brittle backerlite type material and not suited to knocks and being bashed around. Just slipping the plastic bit on to cover the pin wiring is not a great or robust idea.

Anyway they work & still work, appear safe enough and gave me my grounding.

Seems to me with a little more thought Thailand should have tried pushing this style of plug in the past (cleaned up of course as a standard).

Now my STILL major problem in Khon Kaen is finding any outlet be it small, specialized or like Global, HomePro and Home hub that sells ordinary (well in UK and Spain) appliance 3 core cable.

This has been a real pain over time as I always elect to connect Ground when there is a gorund wire.

Regards

Dave

The local housing supplies store not far from me sells 3 core cable so perhaps you should try a smaller place.

I tried to buy a desktop from Big C and the new one they sold me gave me shocks! Needless to say it was back to them next day. Considering most houses here only have 2 pin outlets and no earths at all..................................

If your house doesn't have 3-pin sockets, you want to make sure that everything you buy is double-insulated. In the case of computers, I've never seen a desktop with separate CPU box that was double insulated - so you might be better off buying a notebook

[gdhm]

Just to say... you don't HAVE to have 3-core cable to run the ground. I've just been running (I won't say what size) green wire along with the 2-core through the conduit and whatever. It's no big deal. Actually, you don't need 3-core if you set up a ground "buss" and just tap into that: saves on running redundant ground wires.

I have also connected ground to the roof framing and use that for ground to the ceiling fans and any lights that really want it. (Tests good.)

Which is what my Builder's electrician did. Not really a problem that is is not protected with a thick outer casing as not exposed (personally I like the outer casing extra protection as you never know what a later worker/repair man may do to it.

To be honest Steve I was referring to cabling for extension leads,and appliances etc. within the house and garden rather than the wiring system itself that have and need ground. Gets ugly taping a ground wire as I have had to do with my washing machine (it came with a 2 cable for N & L) and a totally separate green ground wire. NO Idea why a leading Japanese maker would do that (unless they assumed most buyers do not have 3 pin power sockets. Even so, I'd make the buyer avoid the Ground by needing to re-plug rather than supply a washing machine with a ground wire hanging lose, because many would not know what it is and they would just ignore it - and everybody ALWAYS fully reads instruction manuals don't they (we).

Dave

[gdhm]

If your house doesn't have 3-pin sockets, you want to make sure that everything you buy is double-insulated. In the case of computers, I've never seen a desktop with separate CPU box that was double insulated - so you might be better off buying a notebook

A Laptop? NEVER!! Wife fancies one though, so she can use it at night in the bedroom she says. Call me Cupid not stupid ....I know which one would win (OK not exactly cupid either)

Joking apart, I personally have never liked Laptop's proportionately more expensive, small keyboards, hate the mouse controls on them) too small, not so easy to replace a failed component (even if possible) difficult to expand (e.g I have hard rives in my PC. I prefer several because I can cross backup AND if just one huge capacity drive all eggs are in one basket so to speak.), have never had a need for a "movable" PC and finally a single Brand does not make/choose the best hardware internal accessories - I like to mix and match (as with Hi Fi) components to get optimal performance for my money.

My solution at my wife's Aunt's house and subsequent rental was ground rod and wire through a drilled whole in outer wall and grounding the Power wall socket the PC used. Worked a treat.

Dave

Edited June 24, 2013 by gdhm

[jombom]

Obviously the OP has not been electrocuted in Thailand yet.

I have, and it was extremely unpleasant ---- it can also be fatal.

[bankruatsteve]

Obviously the OP has not been electrocuted in Thailand yet.

I have, and it was extremely unpleasant ---- it can also be fatal.

Obviously, I (put the OP) have not been electrocuted anywhere else I would be dead.