Is It Better To Lie Than Confront In Thailand?

[happy chatter]

Thais are a little shy, when it comes to asking for more money.

What a load off Buffalo P@@,,,, they will soon let you know if enough, is not enough

I know one thai that is not so shy about asking for money

[benalibina]

Thais are a little shy, when it comes to asking for more money. What a load off Buffalo P@@,,,, they will soon let you know if enough, is not enough

I know one thai that is not so shy about asking for money

Your..........

[canuckamuck]

I generally disbelieve every excuse, but it is not worth my time to get bothered by it either. It is normal behavior here. And it doesn't mean this lady was a bad person either.

1500 baht was generous by the way

[fletchsmile]

To answer your question: "Is it better to lie than confront" - 60 mio+ Thais seem to think in many cases it is

Seriously though... You may also want to read the book "Working with the Thais". There's a similar sort of illustration, where Thais will often say yes once and then no later. As your Thai friend say they have no intention of doing what they said yes to. Their reasoning is often that they say yes once and no once so it balances. This is better than just saying no once.

BTW In reverse it can be equally confusing to them:

I remember my wife on one of her first trips to the UK asking my parents if she could use the phone to call Thailand. My dad said something like "do you need to call now or could it wait until the weekend". A valid question given the much cheaper rates in those days for landlines at weekend - particularly overseas. He meant exactly what he said.

My wife took it that my father didn't want her to use the phone. She later complained to me that my parents "wouldn't let her use the phone". I was very surprised at this. When we talked it thru, I said no, he simply asked if she could wait. Exactly as he said. Of course to a Thai person, that would be how someone might say no. They wouldn't say no outright, but say something like later, which both Thai parties would understand as "no", without having to actually say it.

Cheers

Fletch

Edited May 29, 2013 by fletchsmile

[givenall]

This is blessing for you. I would worry if she take the job and not if unhappy and causes problem for you

Sent from my ST18a using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Birdman]

#34, the thainess aware husband with money saving father would have checked out the very cheapest telephone rates, which costs almost nothing, prior that incident

Edited May 29, 2013 by Birdman

[Loptr]

To the OP, welcome to Thailand. Where an answer is a non-answer and the truth is something that is as elusive as a unicorn. As your friend told you, you have to get used to it if you plan on living in Thailand. Either that or go nuts trying to figure out why Thais are like this. After all, a leopard cannot change it's spots.

[fletchsmile]

#34, the thainess aware husband with money saving father would have checked out the very cheapest telephone rates, which costs almost nothing, prior that incident

and you have an imaginary list of UK telephone landline rates going back a couple of decades without Skype/ VOIP do you? - sad

To your average pensioner in the UK in those days using a landline, those pounds used to, and still do make a difference...

You obviously never knew my late father either, and were brought up in a different era ...

Edited May 29, 2013 by fletchsmile

[Ringmybells]

She didn't want to do it.

The kids were too much effort last time.

The BK trip fell through.

She wanted more money.

You will never know the truth so why worry, Thai's rarely like to say no, easier to lie.

Exactly so.

There are any number of possible reasons why she couldn't do it or didn't want to, no point in trying to guess what they were, though indeed it might have been the money. What is pretty sure is that the reason was not the one she gave, which is very typical.

Lying under such circumstances is considered quite acceptable in Thai culture and considered preferrable to saying anything that might cause disappointment or inter-personnel friction. It doesn't cause as much confusion to Thais as it does to us since they start from the assumption that whatever reason is given is likely not true and that whatever promises are made may not be genuine. For us, used to working on opposite assumptions, it can be very confusing.

In Thai culture, the goal of any conversation or encounter is to maintain the outward appearance of harmony and to avoid loss of face for any of the participants. It can be quite frustrating since in the service of said goal, things may be done and said that will cause the people involved to have serious problems in the long run, but that's considered OK as long as they experience those problems in private and the interpersonal interaction went off smoothly.

What you have experienced is just the tip of the iceberg. Just wait until a workman takes off part of your roof and for some reason decides he can't continue the job but lies and tells you he is going out to buy supplies and will be right back (omitting all mention of the exposed roof) at the height of the rainy season... because it was thought better to let your house be flooded and have you deal with that than to face giving you bad (but nowhere as bad as that) news.

Happens all the time. You just have to get used to it, and remember that "yes" may actually be "no", promised appointments may not be kept etc etc.

As regards this woman, Thai norms require that you just act as if the whole thing never happened.

Excellent post. I gave up on trying to figure out why Thais do what they do long ago. I still rather live here than in the West

I am enjoying learning Thai culture but when our one year visa expires we will be glad to get back to the west:-)

[Ringmybells]

Thais are a little shy, when it comes to asking for more money.

What a load off Buffalo P@@,,,, they will soon let you know if enough, is not enough

Like the one who helped watch my kids for 3000 baht for 4 days about 3 hours each day! She was actually polite enough to ask me if I was okay paying her that kind of wages. When I said well...I would if you come in the weekend too, her answer was that she didn't work in the weekend but still wanted to get paid 3000 baht excluded weekend.

[Sheryl]

If it's any comfort, with time you get sort of attuned to the subliminal nuances and better at figuring out when yes is likely a real yes and when it is not. Not 100% perfect at it, but a whole lot better. Communications in Thailand operate at a very low volume, you have to learn to listen carefully for the faint undertones. At first you don't hear a thing and it all seems inexplicable but with time you start to get it.

And there is a very valuable tool that helps with these sort of problems, and that is the time honored use of intermediaries. It is perfectly acceptable, and in fact commonplace, to go to a 3rd party who knows both of you and ask that third party to find out what the other person actually meant, You have to be tactful in how you put it, of course, but generally they'll understand and privately talk to the other party and then privately tell you where things stand, perhaps somewhat euphemistically but still enough that you'll know. The rule of this game is that all persons involved pretend these conversations didn't happen and never ever refer to it when they meet directly. The use of the intermediary is a way of saving face; the other person never has to give you bad news but you still get the info you need.

Thai culture is fairly forgiving of foreigners and make allowances for their difficulty in understanding Thai communications. So if you can find a sympathetic female Thai friend in the neighborhood and confide in her when you are having trouble understanding things, or are worried that so-and-so might have said yes but not really mean it and really need to know if you can rely on what they said they would do, she may help you. Just be circumspect and prepared to settle for the subtle clues she comes back with, which will usually not include the underlying reasons, just advice to help you get what you need.

It's worked for me.

[Jasun]

Sorry to hear about your situation. The answer to your answer to your original question is that yes, it is often preferable to lie than confront in Thailand. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The Thai belief system is based in Buddhism, and one of the main precepts is to abstain from 'false speech'. But this is often interpreted as 'don't say anything that will cause offence'. So, often people will dance around the truth in order to maintain harmony in a given situation.

[kannot]

I find it al rather pathetic to be honest.

[joepattaya1961]

Firstly, are you even sure that money was the reason she backed out of the job?

Even if it was, I would think most people would be apprehensive about bringing up their dissatisfaction with the amount you were willing to pay. Not only do they not want to appear greedy, but they don't want to insult you by implying that you're cheap.

If you really didn't know the going rate, I myself would have guessed on the high side. But that's me.

If a live-in maid gets paid 5500/mo I thought 1500+dinner for four days, 3 hours each day is on the high side. I also asked a few Thais and they said that was a fine offer.

that's the rate a live-in illegal from Laos or Cambodia might get somewhere in the boonies. i have no idea where you live but i claim that no Thai maid/nanny will work for 5,500 Baht a month.

Why not? Live-in..........she doesn't have to rent a room and probably F&B as well as transport are included.

Added up...it will probably near a THB 10,000 per month rather then THB 5,500

[rene123]

This goes well with the 'loss of face' thread....

Also isn't it strange that doing something that she said she would get pleasure from was spoiled by money? which leads me to think someone else gave their opinion that you are farang and have big money so why can't you pay her big money?

I think Sheryl gave very good answers, but norrona touched on a very real situation. It's been my observation that Thai women pay more attention to what their friends and family say than their own common sense or their own interests should indicate.

[arminbkk]

So, in Thailand, you can smile and agree to meet, then not show up, then when confronted (which rarely happens cos we don't confront here), you can just smile and say:"I thouhgt you understood I was just being polite". Then it's all smiles and everyone moves on their merry way.

[muythai2013]

This goes well with the 'loss of face' thread....

Also isn't it strange that doing something that she said she would get pleasure from was spoiled by money? which leads me to think someone else gave their opinion that you are farang and have big money so why can't you pay her big money?

I think Sheryl gave very good answers, but norrona touched on a very real situation. It's been my observation that Thai women pay more attention to what their friends and family say than their own common sense or their own interests should indicate.

sometimes they take very damaging advice from their friends, your absolutely right, I have seen them make absurd choices based on their friends advice.

Thank Heavens my wife is extremely headstrong and sensible and does not listen to anyone like my ex who was a virtual robot.

[Sheryl]

So, in Thailand, you can smile and agree to meet, then not show up, then when confronted (which rarely happens cos we don't confront here), you can just smile and say:"I thouhgt you understood I was just being polite". Then it's all smiles and everyone moves on their merry way.

Yes except one would never give such an honest explanation (and one that potentially embarrasses the other person). Rather, some fictional excuse -- you were sick, car broke down etc. If indeed any excuse is even needed. If it was a Thai person you were supposed to meet most likely they will never mention it. (And for all you know, they didn't show up either!).

[Sheryl]

This goes well with the 'loss of face' thread....

Also isn't it strange that doing something that she said she would get pleasure from was spoiled by money? which leads me to think someone else gave their opinion that you are farang and have big money so why can't you pay her big money?

I think Sheryl gave very good answers, but norrona touched on a very real situation. It's been my observation that Thai women pay more attention to what their friends and family say than their own common sense or their own interests should indicate.

This is possible, but it is also possible that money was not the reason.

In fact it is possible that the original "yes" wasn't for real to begin with and she never had any intention of doing this, period, but rather said she would as it seemed to be what the OP wanted to hear. Or, she may have said yes initially out of a rush of kindly feeling and then later had second thoughts -- didn't want the work/responsibility, too unsure re farang parenting customs, etc etc. Who knows.

[rene123]

Good point, Sheryl. I've had Canadian friends do the same thing when volunteering for something, and they will make up a lie rather than tell the truth when they change their mind.

[ABCer]

Sorry to hear about your situation. The answer to your answer to your original question is that yes, it is often preferable to lie than confront in Thailand. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The Thai belief system is based in Buddhism, and one of the main precepts is to abstain from 'false speech'. But this is often interpreted as 'don't say anything that will cause offence'. So, often people will dance around the truth in order to maintain harmony in a given situation.

Basically it is true. But how far or close one can get to the well known three proverbial ... 'see not, say not, hear not' ? Or somebody crying outloud 'Lier, Lier, Lier' ? What value is in harmony based on a lie? It is a very fine line...

[Kitsune]

Is it really a cultural thing ?

The first company I worked in, a software development business, was packed with young graduates/post graduates and none of this lie nonsense applied. People did the job they were asked to, promises and deadlines were kept and clients got their product on time.

Designing websites to please fussy western foreign customers required creative skills and quite a good deal of adaptation.

I think when Thai people get educated, they lose those erratic ways.

[David48]

Is it really a cultural thing ?

The first company I worked in, a software development business, was packed with young graduates/post graduates and none of this lie nonsense applied. People did the job they were asked to, promises and deadlines were kept and clients got their product on time.

Designing websites to please fussy western foreign customers required creative skills and quite a good deal of adaptation.

I think when Thai people get educated, they lose those erratic ways.

Are you implying that the practise of 'Face', 'or lying, rather then confronting the issue' has a direct correlation to both intelligence and education ... thus 'face-saving' is the domain of the poor, dumb and un-educated?

.

[Kitsune]

Is it really a cultural thing ?

The first company I worked in, a software development business, was packed with young graduates/post graduates and none of this lie nonsense applied. People did the job they were asked to, promises and deadlines were kept and clients got their product on time.

Designing websites to please fussy western foreign customers required creative skills and quite a good deal of adaptation.

I think when Thai people get educated, they lose those erratic ways.

Are you implying that the practise of 'Face', 'or lying, rather then confronting the issue' has a direct correlation to both intelligence and education ... thus 'face-saving' is the domain of the poor, dumb and un-educated?

.

No I am saying that it is very convenient way to avoid facing responsibility when the situation allows it.

When it comes to do a job (or lose it if you are not keeping up with what's asked), Thai people do it as well as others. They can keep deadline and promises when they want to.

[ABCer]

Is it really a cultural thing ?

The first company I worked in, a software development business, was packed with young graduates/post graduates and none of this lie nonsense applied. People did the job they were asked to, promises and deadlines were kept and clients got their product on time.

Designing websites to please fussy western foreign customers required creative skills and quite a good deal of adaptation.

I think when Thai people get educated, they lose those erratic ways.

I agree. But 'getting educated' comes from not only teachers. What about family, peers, society around a young Thai? Life is a very powerful teacher. And we are born with mimicking instinct.

Edited May 31, 2013 by ABCer

[ABCer]

Is it really a cultural thing ?

The first company I worked in, a software development business, was packed with young graduates/post graduates and none of this lie nonsense applied. People did the job they were asked to, promises and deadlines were kept and clients got their product on time.

Designing websites to please fussy western foreign customers required creative skills and quite a good deal of adaptation.

I think when Thai people get educated, they lose those erratic ways.

Are you implying that the practise of 'Face', 'or lying, rather then confronting the issue' has a direct correlation to both intelligence and education ... thus 'face-saving' is the domain of the poor, dumb and un-educated?

.

David, there is no doubts here. Intelligence and education must be conducive to questioning, doubting and debating. In which case admission of fault, mistake or wrong idea comes naturally without any "loss of face".

Once you agree with the logic of this, - lies for non-confrontation and 'face saving' fallacy becomes the domain of dumb and uneducated. I would leave 'poor' out of this altogether.

[Kitsune]

Is it really a cultural thing ?

The first company I worked in, a software development business, was packed with young graduates/post graduates and none of this lie nonsense applied. People did the job they were asked to, promises and deadlines were kept and clients got their product on time.

Designing websites to please fussy western foreign customers required creative skills and quite a good deal of adaptation.

I think when Thai people get educated, they lose those erratic ways.

Are you implying that the practise of 'Face', 'or lying, rather then confronting the issue' has a direct correlation to both intelligence and education ... thus 'face-saving' is the domain of the poor, dumb and un-educated?

.

David, there is no doubts here. Intelligence and education must be conducive to questioning, doubting and debating. In which case admission of fault, mistake or wrong idea comes naturally without any "loss of face".

Once you agree with the logic of this, - lies for non-confrontation and 'face saving' fallacy becomes the domain of dumb and uneducated. I would leave 'poor' out of this altogether.

Thais know perfectly well that you cannot run any business if you constantly piss off your customers by not keeping your word.

As anyone, they are totally capable of being reliable.

They only do it when they know they can get away with it and they have the "cultural" excuse, so why wouldn't they ?