Immigration And English

[pgrahmm]

I would not go to another country (France/Germany/China/Russia. etc) and EXPECT that their country CATER to me.It is the height of arrogance, stupidity, and ignorance.

I am their guest - therefore it is incumbent on me to act as a guest should and be as prepared as i can. Maybe even asking a native speaking friend to help me to understand the nuances within THEIR culture and country.

In the scheme of things I am not as important to them as they are to me. I thank them (and appreciate) for their courtesy and patience in dealing with me as I am the visitor I do not have the choice to pick or demand THEIR ACQUIESCENSE as it is THEIR culture i wish to visit and accept me.....

Expecting more than that based on MY importance is folly.....

Edited June 2, 2013 by pgrahmm

[BradinAsia]

Some folks go over seas and expect everyone to speak English wherever they go. If they are

so all-fired obsessed with English maybe they would be happier staying home.

In my case, I decided at an early age to travel and discover the world --

- So, I studied Spanish and Latin in high school to give myself a good start.

- Studied Russian 1 year in Air Force language school, then went overseas in 1960.

- Studied Urdu and Pashto 18 months in Pakistan.

- Studied Japanese 4 years in Japan.

- In spare time over the next 35 years, studied German, Chinese, Korean, Sanskrit, Classical

Japanese, Classical Chinese, Thai and some Tagalog.

- During this time, worked 14 years as a technical translator (Chinese, Japanese, Russian)

- Also taught conversational Japanese for 8 years.

- Taught introduction to Chinese writing for the Air Force 5 years.

After 26 years living, studying, working in Asia, I can say the effort I put into language study has

greatly enriched the quality of my life.

But everyone has a different agenda. To each his own.

[notmyself]

My concern is that in spite of all the farangs telling thai kids that you will earn more if you speak English the reality is that is not nearly always true.

It is if they are working in the tourist industry directly, such as at a resort. I popped down to my local 7-11 a few hours ago for a few bits and as usual, grabbed a small carton of Pomegranite juice for the walk home, lady on the till said that Malee brand was buy 2 get one free. Good English, polite, helpful and smiling so can't see her being there long. Anyone running a business that deals with tourists directly would like to have her as point of contact.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

why in the world should a Thai person have to speak english, you are in Thailand, not England, I have been here many years, no problems, I think you would be better off in england I speak no Thai

Another of the posters above had the answer to this asking:

--How many countries have Thai as a commonly spoken/understood language?

--How many countries have English as a commonly spoken/understood language?

Without being nationalistic about it, Thai Immigration is in their business NOT to deal with Thais but rather to deal with foreigners.

So, if Immigration staff is to be expected to deal with foreigners, it doesn't take much of a genius to understand that English and Chinese are probably going to be the most productive 2nd languages for Immigration staff to know, at least in Bangkok and the other tourist areas.

That's not to say it wouldn't be helpful or useful for those of us living here longer term to pick up some understanding of the local language.

But we're not getting paid to perform a job. And the Thai Immigration officers are...and that's to interface and communicate with a lot of non-Thai speaking foreigners.

If they don't want to learn at least a bit of a 2nd language, maybe they'd do better working as traffic cops or regulating the street vendors, etc etc instead of working in IMMIGRATION!

Edited June 2, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Kularion]

I would not go to another country (France/Germany/China/Russia. etc) and EXPECT that their country CATER to me.It is the height of arrogance, stupidity, and ignorance.

I am their guest - therefore it is incumbent on me to act as a guest should and be as prepared as i can. Maybe even asking a native speaking friend to help me to understand the nuances within THEIR culture and country.

In the scheme of things I am not as important to them as they are to me. I thank them (and appreciate) for their courtesy and patience in dealing with me as I am the visitor I do not have the choice to pick or demand THEIR ACQUIESCENSE as it is THEIR culture i wish to visit and accept me.....

Expecting more than that based on MY importance is folly.....

I'm sorry but anyone says that all Thai have to speak English ?

As I understand author of this topic is asking only if immigration office employees couldn't speak better English.

You say "we are guests here"... some people live here XX years already, working, making businesses rising children... just living.

So my question is when we can expect to not be guests anymore? Or we have to just agree that we are guests or citizens (even not) 2nd category for the rest of our life?

Together with my girlfriend we are running shop in Bangkok and I don't expect from my customers to speak English when they come shopping... I'm trying to communicate with them in Thai the best as I can and that's ok with me.

But if I have to go to IMMIGRATION OFFICE when all the clients are IMMIGRANTS I can expect that people who are working there would speak language which can speak most of the IMMIGRANTS and in this case is English language.

I'm Polish and I don't expect that they will speak Polish but I expect that they will speak English the same as I expect that people in Immigration Office in my country will speak English. And if they don't I have only one think to say - SHAME ON YOU go to school and learn, get more education and later ask for job in such important sector as you are not Mr Smith anymore - you are representing country and if shame on you - shame on country.

Just last thing which I want to say - all government offices are public service - in this case public service for foreigners and we are not for them !!! They are for us to serve as much as word "service" means so please stop with "you want visa so it's your business to speak Thai".

[jiean]

As ASEAN is using English as a standard and as Thailand agreed to this, and to train Govt sufficiently, er, by now actually- all immigration and related staff should be fluent , seems the OP has a valid point.

Even Chinese speak English.

I agree and as I said, all the form I have had to deal with are in Thai and English so you would expect to be able to use either. I did suggest perhaps a year ago to a very nice lady at Samui immigration that the TM. 7 should also be available in Russian but was told that that would cause more problems than it solved. Upon reflection, I think she was right.

Chinese speak English??

What rot. They may in all the large tourist destinations but 350ks inland where I am, fat chance. I need an interpreter every time I go to immigration.

I'm Chinese , I have been speaking English for 20 years and I m 27 yrs old now, which means I stopped speaking Chinese after 7 years old.....I agree that there isn't a great number of Chinese speaking English pretty well ..however, Ppl who deal with foreigners in all kinds of business area including immigrants bla bla bla have high English proficiency ..

[Eddy B]

This all comes down to the job you are doing. If you are a farmer you have to know when and how to plant your crops. If you are an accountant or working in a bank you must be able understand numbers. If you are working at Immigration you will need to deal with people that maybe do not know how to speak the spoken Thai language. When Asean comes about, most people using immigration wont be tourists or ex-pats but people from the other Asean countries who have tried and successed in learning basic English to better themselves and just want to get a visa. The real question is why is Thailand so slow in understanding this very simple idea? When Asean is in its early years I feel that most big companies would rather fly their goods and cargo over Thailand, which will cost but not so much hassle to their destinations, rather than using land or air check-points.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I would not go to another country (France/Germany/China/Russia. etc) and EXPECT that their country CATER to me.It is the height of arrogance, stupidity, and ignorance.

I am their guest - therefore it is incumbent on me to act as a guest should and be as prepared as i can. Maybe even asking a native speaking friend to help me to understand the nuances within THEIR culture and country.

In the scheme of things I am not as important to them as they are to me. I thank them (and appreciate) for their courtesy and patience in dealing with me as I am the visitor I do not have the choice to pick or demand THEIR ACQUIESCENSE as it is THEIR culture i wish to visit and accept me.....

Expecting more than that based on MY importance is folly.....

When U.S. schools have a lot of Spanish speaking students, they try to hire bilingual teachers in order to deal with that particular population of students, because bilingualism is a skill that's helpful/required for those teachers to effectively do their job.

When Thai Immigration hires officers whose job it is all day long to speak and deal with mainly non-Thai speaking foreigners, they hire officers who only can speak Thai???? Now that's what I'd call FOLLY!

[ragamuffin]

I would not go to another country (France/Germany/China/Russia. etc) and EXPECT  that their country CATER to me.It is the height of arrogance, stupidity, and ignorance.

 

I am their guest - therefore it is incumbent on me to act as a guest should and be as prepared as i can. Maybe even asking a native speaking friend to help me to understand the nuances within THEIR culture and country.

 

In the scheme of things I am not as important to them as they are to me. I thank them (and appreciate) for their courtesy and patience in dealing with me as I am the visitor I do not have the choice to pick or demand THEIR ACQUIESCENSE as it is THEIR culture i wish to visit and accept me.....

 

Expecting more than that based on MY importance is folly.....

Immigration deals with immigrants. That is, their business is foreigners. The global lingua franca is English. Who if not immigration staff should speak another language in addition to their mother tongue?

[Eddy B]

This all comes down to the job you are doing. If you are a farmer you have to know when and how to plant your crops. If you are an accountant or working in a bank you must be able understand numbers. If you are working at Immigration you will need to deal with people that maybe do not know how to speak the spoken Thai language. When Asean comes about, most people using immigration wont be tourists or ex-pats but people from the other Asean countries who have tried and successed in learning basic English to better themselves and just want to get a visa. The real question is why is Thailand so slow in understanding this very simple idea? When Asean is in its early years I feel that most big companies would rather fly their goods and cargo over Thailand, which will cost but not so much hassle to their destinations, rather than using land or air check-points.

I forgot to mention corruption, back-handers and basically trying to get as much money through tea-money as they can get by saying "THIS IS THAILAND". Every day new rules, every day changes of backwards ideas, or just simply not knowing what their job is or how to do it.

[BradinAsia]

Read somewhere that a person who speaks three languages is tri-lingual, a person who speaks two is bi-lingual and a person who speaks only one language is generally English.

Let's just add a few more to your list of uni lingual people.

Let's try Americans, Australians, New Zealanders. I've omitted other British Isles residents and Irishmen as they may speak Gaelic, Welsh or Erse. Some South Africans, generally English speakers, are also capable of Afrikaans.

Huge numbers of English residents (citizens) don't speak English since they are from diverse ethnic backgrounds. South Western United States has millions of Hispanics who only speak Spanish.

I've also been here over 10 years and have learned basic conversational Thai, but I think the original post was actually commenting on the almost total lack of any English ability on behalf of Immigration officers outside Bangkok, Pattaya and maybe Phuket. There are few people who would have the courage to complain directly to an officer on their lack of English skill.

Even the Thai P.M. speaks beautiful English.

I am sure there are many on this board who are cunning linguists and capable of speaking in many languages, but the average person is lucky to be able to handle two.

"South Western United States has millions of Hispanics who only speak Spanish."

Extremely absurd.

The majority of those Hispanics are multiu-lingual. Many prefer to speak Spanish,

but the majority get along quite well in English when needed.

Anyone who has lived very long in the Southwest knows this.

[BradinAsia]

I would not go to another country (France/Germany/China/Russia. etc) and EXPECT that their country CATER to me.It is the height of arrogance, stupidity, and ignorance.

I am their guest - therefore it is incumbent on me to act as a guest should and be as prepared as i can. Maybe even asking a native speaking friend to help me to understand the nuances within THEIR culture and country.

In the scheme of things I am not as important to them as they are to me. I thank them (and appreciate) for their courtesy and patience in dealing with me as I am the visitor I do not have the choice to pick or demand THEIR ACQUIESCENSE as it is THEIR culture i wish to visit and accept me.....

Expecting more than that based on MY importance is folly.....

When U.S. schools have a lot of Spanish speaking students, they try to hire bilingual teachers in order to deal with that particular population of students, because bilingualism is a skill that's helpful/required for those teachers to effectively do their job.

When Thai Immigration hires officers whose job it is all day long to speak and deal with mainly non-Thai speaking foreigners, they hire officers who only can speak Thai???? Now that's what I'd call FOLLY!

This may be a bit off-topic... if so, I apologize.

Re: "...hire bilingual teachers in order to deal with that particular population of students..."

The main problem is most uni-lingual folks have no clue about second language acquisition.

Thirty years ago, a local school district in Ohio was experiencing a large influx of Japanese

kids in the elementary schools. The school board decided to have their teachers learn basic

conversational Japanese to better deal with all these Japanese kids in their schools.

Of course, there was also the fact that the Japanese transplant firms (the employers of the

kids' parents) were heavily subsidizing the local school systems to enroll the kids.

It sounds reasonable enough, right?

So the school board paid me to teach conversational Japanese classes for all their elementary

teachers. I made a lot of money and had lots of fun doing it. The school board hired me because

I was the only person around willing and able to teach the classes.

It was a one year evening job (moon-lighting) and I loved it. Just one interesting catch to this story.

A year later, when I had finished teaching Japanese to the school teachers, guess what? The

Japanese kids had already become quite fluent in Japanese. The had no need for Japanese

speaking teachers.

When children 6-14 years old find themselves in a new language environment and are exposed to

the new language on a daily basis in the classroom and in the community, these kids will usually

become fluent in the new language within 6 months.

It just happens. No particular outside effort is necessary. Children's brains are hard-wired for

second language acquisition. All they need is exposure to the new language on a daily basis.

Six months flat will usually do it.

I just recalled another unique opportunity I had to teach English for 10 weeks to a group of 6

Brazilian kids. The parents wanted to prepare them to enter the U.S. school systems. The kids'

started with an English level of zero. At the end of 10 weeks they sounded like American kids.

Not quite totally fluent, but fully capable of entering the U.S. school system.

The second language acquisition ability of children is an amazing phenomenon, but it is real.

Edited June 2, 2013 by BradinAsia

[notmyself]

A year later, when I had finished teaching Japanese to the school teachers, guess what? The

Japanese kids had already become quite fluent in Japanese. The had no need for Japanese

speaking teachers.

You mean the kids had become quite fluent in English?

Russian lady moved into a house very close to me some 3 years ago with a 5 year old girl. Mother spoke both English and French but the little girl was Russian only. 4-5-6 months later they moved out because there is nothing here for kids and her daughter went to a French school in Lamai, Samui. Didn't see either of them for a good 4 months before we went out for dinner one night, little girl was chatting away to me in English like it was her mother tongue. Wonderful.

Same thing with the daughter of a very good friend of mine. Her and her Swiss BF split up some time ago but she was happy enough to let her daughter go to school in Switzerland last October/ beginning of November. Daughter and her father came back early last month and she now speaks English well and French very well. Wonderful.

[jrtmedic]

BradinAsia

I have witnessed the extraordinary capacity of children to acquire language.

My wife and I help a young Thai couple (who both need to work) by taking care of their baby daughter during the day. The little girl was only a few weeks old when we started to care for her six days a week. Whilst she is with us my wife speaks to the child in Thai and I talk to her using English.

The little girl is now 5 years old and is comfortably bi-lingual!

Edited June 2, 2013 by jrtmedic

[BradinAsia]

A year later, when I had finished teaching Japanese to the school teachers, guess what? The

Japanese kids had already become quite fluent in Japanese. The had no need for Japanese

speaking teachers.

You mean the kids had become quite fluent in English?

Russian lady moved into a house very close to me some 3 years ago with a 5 year old girl. Mother spoke both English and French but the little girl was Russian only. 4-5-6 months later they moved out because there is nothing here for kids and her daughter went to a French school in Lamai, Samui. Didn't see either of them for a good 4 months before we went out for dinner one night, little girl was chatting away to me in English like it was her mother tongue. Wonderful.

Same thing with the daughter of a very good friend of mine. Her and her Swiss BF split up some time ago but she was happy enough to let her daughter go to school in Switzerland last October/ beginning of November. Daughter and her father came back early last month and she now speaks English well and French very well. Wonderful.

Yes, sorry.

The kids had become fluent in English. Think one thing, type another -- pure senility.

[notmyself]

Think one thing, type another -- pure senility.

Easy enough to do though I think the correct term to use these days is a senior moment.

To get back on topic. What does this say about those in immigration as per the OP?

It has been suggested that those in charge may not have been the best person for the job and that some other 'underhand' reason could be the cause.

[BradinAsia]

BradinAsia

I have witnessed the extraordinary capacity of children to acquire language.

My wife and I help a young Thai couple (who both need to work) by taking care of their baby daughter during the day. The little girl was only a few weeks old when we started to care for her six days a week. Whilst she is with us my wife speaks to the child in Thai and I talk to her using English.

The little girl is now 5 years old and is comfortably bi-lingual!

I have seen some amazing bi-lingual kids at an amazing young age.

Many years ago in Japan I met a little Japanese girl about 4 years old who was

totally fluent in Japanese and English. As I had been diligently studying Japanese

for several years, I was very impressed by this kid.

One day I decided to give her a vocabulary test.

I asked here a series of vocabulary questions in Japanese to test here English

vocabulary. After correctly answering a long list of questions, I finally stumped

her.

I asked her in Japanese how to say "grass" in English. She had never heard the

Japanese word, so she could not answer.

The reason she didn't know the word is that she had never seen grass. In 1964

Japan, in the city where we lived there was no grass, only dirt, mud and pavement.

This taught me that a child's fluency is strictly limited by their experience.

[Kularion]

ok can we be back on track ? we are debating here about officials working for Immigration office in Thailand... should they speak English or maybe not and all Immigrants should learn Thai (as some of us have suggested) before they go to Immigration ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think the salient point of the above posts, for this discussion, is that I believe there's a good amount of scientific evidence that children much more readily pick up new languages than adults, especially older adults, do...

And who's the clientele showing up at Thai Immigration offices? Young kids, or older geezers such as many of the members here on Thai Visa???

Just sayin'.

Learning a second language for personal advancement or use is one thing.

Learning a second language because it's necessary and productive for your employment. That's a bit more necessary and expected, or at least it OUGHT to be.

Edited June 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Keesters]

I think you've got the language issue the other way around.

13 years in Thailand. Can't speak Thai?

He didn't say he couldn't speak Thai he said

I just cant speak Thai on the phone

I can speak Thai face to face but too have some difficulty on the phone. Maybe it's the lack of body language, maybe it's a hearing problem, I don't know. I know one Englishman who has difficulty in conversing in English on the phone.

[Keesters]

pianoman

If what you assert is true why does the UN employ so many interpreters ?

because it's money 'well' spent.

[Italian guy]

Have seen many Japanese at the immigration office who only speak Japanese.

Immigration say many complaints that the forms are not in Japanese and the staff don't speak Japanese!

Same - same for Koreans.

Local up-class (5 star) hotel manager here told me the other day that 20% of the guests now come from China.

They are re-printing all their forms and signs to include Chinese as these guests do not use English at all.

They have also had to employ a Chinese manager and Chinese speaking staff.

Native English speakers comprise about 12% of their guests.

Suspect Thai Immigration may have to speak Chinese in the future, and re-print all their forms with Thai and Chinese, dumping the minority use of English.

P.S. Also heard Germans and French complaining about the "overuse" of English and not using "their" language if Thailand wants visitors from "their" countries!

The world is a-changing.

Yeaah! These germans and especially french,,, they still think that their countries is on the top of the world, not realising that english is actually being THE language that will be used throughout the world outside Asia of course., in the future...

Glegolo

Have seen many Japanese at the immigration office who only speak Japanese.

Immigration say many complaints that the forms are not in Japanese and the staff don't speak Japanese!

Same - same for Koreans.

Local up-class (5 star) hotel manager here told me the other day that 20% of the guests now come from China.

They are re-printing all their forms and signs to include Chinese as these guests do not use English at all.

They have also had to employ a Chinese manager and Chinese speaking staff.

Native English speakers comprise about 12% of their guests.

Suspect Thai Immigration may have to speak Chinese in the future, and re-print all their forms with Thai and Chinese, dumping the minority use of English.

P.S. Also heard Germans and French complaining about the "overuse" of English and not using "their" language if Thailand wants visitors from "their" countries!

The world is a-changing.

Yeaah! These germans and especially french,,, they still think that their countries is on the top of the world, not realising that english is actually being THE language that will be used throughout the world outside Asia of course., in the future...

Glegolo

English is undoubtedly the world language and it'll maintain its status for the foreseeable future. The reasons are to be found in history, economy, sociology, geography, etc.

However, the arrogance of some (and I stress SOME, not all) native English speakers has always turned my stomach! A lot of them have no idea of what it means studying and mastering a language, simply because they've never been required to!

So, I totally agree with the OP that the immigration official should speak at least a basic English BUT native English speakers should also try and learn some second language (Spanish, French, Arabic, and Chinese are the most useful after English). Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea studying the basics of the language of the country one lives in.

[Italian guy]

Take Note, the language for the upcoming asean union is ENGLISH and most Thai's are years behind their neighbours, maybe that is why it is taking so long to get started?

I have visited ALL the 11 countries that form the ASEAN community and the English skills are more or less the same, except Singapore and the Philippines. Just try and go to Jakarta... People in Bangkok speak much better English that in Jakarta (I'm just comparing two capital cities).

[spectre324]

I think you've got the language issue the other way around.

13 years in Thailand. Can't speak Thai?

touché

I got the same call and figured out that they were doing a survey on how well the immagration dept did. after thirteen years you should have out of necessity the BASIC words down! remember your the foreigner, not them! I have been here fourteen years and i do have a problem with the thai language but when I do i ask them to phut cha cha! and figure out what they want.

[stoli]

I would not go to another country (France/Germany/China/Russia. etc) and EXPECT that their country CATER to me.It is the height of arrogance, stupidity, and ignorance.

I am their guest - therefore it is incumbent on me to act as a guest should and be as prepared as i can. Maybe even asking a native speaking friend to help me to understand the nuances within THEIR culture and country.

In the scheme of things I am not as important to them as they are to me. I thank them (and appreciate) for their courtesy and patience in dealing with me as I am the visitor I do not have the choice to pick or demand THEIR ACQUIESCENSE as it is THEIR culture i wish to visit and accept me.....

Expecting more than that based on MY importance is folly.....

If you are a guest of their country, (an overused term) they would be paying for your stay as a guest, wouldn't they? I believe you came here with a bunch of money that they would like to share in, which makes you a visitor, not a house guest. They setup Immigration to deal with your visit, and at Immigration should be qualified to help you in your national language, especially if you speak English, because most of their arrivals do. Immigration is most peoples first impression of Thailand. According to an earlier post, someone should spend 2 years learning Thai before they come here. Wow, would that change the visitor numbers, and make Thailand a 4th world country. Tear down the empty condo's. I agree if you decide to live here, you should immediately start to learn Thai as quickly as possible, and not expect that every Thai person speak English, (although many do!) Immigration, dealing with mostly customers that do not speak Thai, by the very service they are to provide, should speak English, and have other interpreters available. That is their job.

[belg]

the OP has certainly got a point, immigration should have the best thais speaking english... but you only need to show money or now people to get a good position, not a descent education or a real degree, not one of those getting for just attending classes

they pass everybody each grade, noone left behind, kinda like US marines

but same as you get high school kids in senior year that can hardly read and write ...

[MYKTHEMIN]

Take Note, the language for the upcoming asean union is ENGLISH and most Thai's are years behind their neighbours, maybe that is why it is taking so long to get started?

I have visited ALL the 11 countries that form the ASEAN community and the English skills are more or less the same, except Singapore and the Philippines. Just try and go to Jakarta... People in Bangkok speak much better English that in Jakarta (I'm just comparing two capital cities).

Not in my experience, all the other countries are head and shoulders above Thailand in English language skills.

[DRONGOH]

A good example of flexibility are the Filipinos. If you read ANYTHING there, half sentence in English and the other half in Filipino. Can you beat that?

[notmyself]

the OP has certainly got a point, immigration should have the best thais speaking english...

Oh come on! A general reasonably broad understanding would be more than enough for most things and in rare cases the applicant would have to go to Bangkok to solve a problem.

TAT is trying to get people into the country while immigration is doing their very best to throw them out minus anything they have on their person (or access to) on the way.

However, the service I have recieved at Samui immigration for many years has been top quality and I applaud them for it.

[JWNLV]

Given the "money machine" that is generated by the Immigration rules that impact expats here, I agree that basic English proficiency -- as the global 'tongue' -- should be a work requirement at the Immigration offices. Beyond that, I am impressed and humbled that other non-English countries know my "mother tongue" when I am fluent solely in English (my Latin minor in college is useless in the real world!).