Choking To Death On His Own Vomit

[Phronesis]

Mental note to self. Despite all the shiny new cars Phuket it is still the third world.

I just rode into Phuket town to pick my girl up from her apartment.

I was riding back north up Thep Krassatri Road with her on the back and pulled up at the red light at the cross road intersection where there is an overhead walk way and if you turn left you can go down the one way road into the university. There were a couple of kids on a scoopy next to me and they ran the red light (as they often do at that intersection). Any way just after they took off the kid on the back fell off and cracked his head on the pavement (no helmet). The kid riding the bike didn't even realise his pillion had fallen off and keep racing ahead. The kid was laying in darkness in the middle of the road with his arms and legs at weird frozen angles.

The traffic was about to come from the east of the intersection so I gunned my chopper and rode out across the road to block the oncoming trucks, and stuck my hand up in a stop position. All of the oncoming Thai drivers totally ignored me and just swung around me and keep going...but at least the kid on the road was protected by my bike. A couple of Thais then ran onto the road to grab the lad and by that time he had started convulsing violently in a seizure.

My guess is that the seizure wasn't from the crack to his head, and that he fell off the bike because he was an epileptic and had blacked out. The lad was dragged to the footpath were he continued to convulse and was vomiting and foaming at the mouth. At that moment two Police appeared out of nowhere on a bike and rode up to LOOK at the kid. The Thais that were helping him had the kid flat on his back and he was clearly drowning in his own vomit. I screamed at them (in Thai) to lay him on his side and clear his mouth. I also told my girl to tell them the same in case my language was incorrect.

By this stage a crowd of perhaps 25 people had gathered to watch the show. I parked my bike to the curb and then got off and went to try and get the guy in the prone position and to clear his mouth. But the police told me (loudly) do not touch him. I told them that the boy was choking, but they told me not to touch him as a rote payaban was coming.

I got back on my bike, the girl climbed on the back and we rode back to my place.

When I left, the lad was choking to death on his own vomit for want of some one just to roll him on his side and clear his mouth.

I already have zero respect for Thai police. But I fear I have just witnessed them murder a young boy with their stupidity.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Phronesis

[doctorproc156]

I hope the kid made it, otherwise it is a tragic story and those officers should be charged with negligence that resulted in death (fat chance that's going to happen). But I've done an internationally recognized first aid course here in Thailand and you receive a good Samaritan protection card which allows you to act in such situations like this as a first responder before the paramedics arrive and the card protects you from the police pressing charges if you were to carry out the proper procedures in dealing with whatever situation. I recommend people in Thailand who have a little free time to take the course as flashing that card would usually be enough to allow the police to allow you to deal with someone in need of immediate care.

[Tywais]

I hope the kid made it, otherwise it is a tragic story and those officers should be charged with negligence that resulted in death (fat chance that's going to happen). But I've done an internationally recognized first aid course here in Thailand and you receive a good Samaritan protection card which allows you to act in such situations like this as a first responder before the paramedics arrive and the card protects you from the police pressing charges if you were to carry out the proper procedures in dealing with whatever situation. I recommend people in Thailand who have a little free time to take the course as flashing that card would usually be enough to allow the police to allow you to deal with someone in need of immediate care.

That's useful to know. Any info as to where the courses are held? I went through a 1st aid course in the military but many years ago and even though still remember the procedures I believe some of them have now changed. Example, proper use of a tourniquet had been changed to leave it on continuously to time releases so don't know what else I may be missing.

[smokie36]

Its basic first aid Phronesis and at least you may have taught someone here a lesson if nothing else positive comes from your encounter.

[doctorproc156]

I hope the kid made it, otherwise it is a tragic story and those officers should be charged with negligence that resulted in death (fat chance that's going to happen). But I've done an internationally recognized first aid course here in Thailand and you receive a good Samaritan protection card which allows you to act in such situations like this as a first responder before the paramedics arrive and the card protects you from the police pressing charges if you were to carry out the proper procedures in dealing with whatever situation. I recommend people in Thailand who have a little free time to take the course as flashing that card would usually be enough to allow the police to allow you to deal with someone in need of immediate care.

That's useful to know. Any info as to where the courses are held? I went through a 1st aid course in the military but many years ago and even though still remember the procedures I believe some of them have now changed. Example, proper use of a tourniquet had been changed to leave it on continuously to time releases so don't know what else I may be missing.

The qualification I have is from "Emergency First Response" which is a Canadian based company.

This is their website and you can type in your location and it will show you course centers which may be near your location:

http://www.emergencyfirstresponse.com/EFRCourseFinderConsumer/default.aspx

I did it as an elective when I was still studying in an international school in Bangkok.

[kurnell]

I don't think epileptics vomit during seizure. Nevertheless, cops here are trained in nothing but corruption and laziness (actually the latter is learned non the job)

[krisb]

That's very interesting regarding Thai 1st aid and issuing a samaritan card! Definitely 1 to remember.

I would think in Thailand you could be held as liable if you tried to help and he died? if he was vomiting he had gone into shock. Hope he made it.

[Songhua]

You did the right thing OP. At least you can live knowing you did the right thing. Sadly, they'll probably be thinking they did.

[meatboy]

that is some good info if its true,my wife has a basic and intermediate certificate obtained in the uk.so she will try and find out where she can get this card.

[krisb]

It something maybe mods can pin. First aid courses in Thailand and getting that card.

[BookMan]

Sad story

[simple1]

I hope the kid made it, otherwise it is a tragic story and those officers should be charged with negligence that resulted in death (fat chance that's going to happen). But I've done an internationally recognized first aid course here in Thailand and you receive a good Samaritan protection card which allows you to act in such situations like this as a first responder before the paramedics arrive and the card protects you from the police pressing charges if you were to carry out the proper procedures in dealing with whatever situation. I recommend people in Thailand who have a little free time to take the course as flashing that card would usually be enough to allow the police to allow you to deal with someone in need of immediate care.

That's useful to know. Any info as to where the courses are held? I went through a 1st aid course in the military but many years ago and even though still remember the procedures I believe some of them have now changed. Example, proper use of a tourniquet had been changed to leave it on continuously to time releases so don't know what else I may be missing.

The qualification I have is from "Emergency First Response" which is a Canadian based company.

This is their website and you can type in your location and it will show you course centers which may be near your location:

http://www.emergencyfirstresponse.com/EFRCourseFinderConsumer/default.aspx

I did it as an elective when I was still studying in an international school in Bangkok.

I am very interested in this course as every week I see accidents in Pattaya when driving. I checked the website, but only courses for Asia Pacific are in Australia. Which Thai government agency provides the protection of a "Good Samaritan protection card". I am visiting Australia for a while so would take the course.

[pattayadingo]

Good information about the card from the OP.

Well done also to the Op for preventing the traffic running the guy over in the first place and for trying to help. Sadly it is the way of things here that you - especially as a foreigner - can only do so much, even as you look on and know others are making bad mistakes in this sort of situation.

Makes you feel helpless and angry

[GottaGo]

Yes of course you're subject to being sued if you help out and things go bad.

But IMO that shouldn't stop anyone from doing their best to do the right thing.

[Phronesis]

Well, after sleeping on last night's events I am even angrier at those worthless cops. I wish I had a phone on me with video as it would of made for some cracker footage to upload to youtube. And maybe just maybe the morons in brown would have been held accountable for their inaction. Maybe one of the many Thai kids watching the show were filming...one can only hope.

I pray the kid is still alive this morning...

Edited June 3, 2013 by Phronesis

[doctorproc156]

I hope the kid made it, otherwise it is a tragic story and those officers should be charged with negligence that resulted in death (fat chance that's going to happen). But I've done an internationally recognized first aid course here in Thailand and you receive a good Samaritan protection card which allows you to act in such situations like this as a first responder before the paramedics arrive and the card protects you from the police pressing charges if you were to carry out the proper procedures in dealing with whatever situation. I recommend people in Thailand who have a little free time to take the course as flashing that card would usually be enough to allow the police to allow you to deal with someone in need of immediate care.

That's useful to know. Any info as to where the courses are held? I went through a 1st aid course in the military but many years ago and even though still remember the procedures I believe some of them have now changed. Example, proper use of a tourniquet had been changed to leave it on continuously to time releases so don't know what else I may be missing.

The qualification I have is from "Emergency First Response" which is a Canadian based company.

This is their website and you can type in your location and it will show you course centers which may be near your location:

http://www.emergencyfirstresponse.com/EFRCourseFinderConsumer/default.aspx

I did it as an elective when I was still studying in an international school in Bangkok.

I am very interested in this course as every week I see accidents in Pattaya when driving. I checked the website, but only courses for Asia Pacific are in Australia. Which Thai government agency provides the protection of a "Good Samaritan protection card". I am visiting Australia for a while so would take the course.

If you type in Bangkok on the search bar above the map on the link i sent you it should show you the instructors around Bangkok. There are instructors in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chumpon, Phuket, Samui, Phangan and Krabi according to the map. This same agency provides card for you and the instructors and teachers at the international school I attended have said they have used the card themselves here to provide first aid to someone in need.

Now I do not know if the Good Samaritan Laws which come with the qualification are legally binding in Thailand (We were told it was by our instructor but I really don't know how to confirm this), but it does usually get around the police stopping you from administering first aid for someone in need when you show them the card. In other countries such as Canada where it is legally binding, the qualification even stops you from being sued if something were to go wrong as long as you carried out your duties and procedures in the way they tell you to in the emergency first response course. If someone were to carry out a first aid in a potentially life threatening situation we were told that we should video what we are doing to prove in court that we had carried out a first response action in a manner that is universally acceptable in dealing with whatever situation.

Usually in situations where the patient is still conscious and able to respond we have to ask for their consent before carrying out any first aid procedure, however if the patient is unresponsive like the scenario mentioned by OP then it is implied consent and you do not need to ask for consent from the individual.

Edited June 3, 2013 by anantha92

[IMA_FARANG]

I know what your saying but the FIRST rule upon finding someone unconscious is shaking them and asking them loudly, "ARE YOU ALRIGHT".

Probably wouldn't apply to that situation you describe, but it should always be done.

You ALWAYS first try to rouse the victim.

The story I was told in one of my first aid classes was of a man who came upon a female jogger he thought had passed out on a jogging path.

He couldn't feel a pulse or see a breath response.

Turned out she was simply sleeping there.

He was nearly arrested for sexual assault when he tried to give her mouth-to-mouth breathing.

And, unless there is choking, you DON'T move a head or neck wound, especially in falls.

But you have to make that decision for yourself, and if required to save their life it's your call.

[phuketjock]

I don't think epileptics vomit during seizure. Nevertheless, cops here are trained in nothing but corruption and laziness (actually the latter is learned non the job)

I lived with an epileptic some years ago and every fit I ever seen him have finished with him vomiting, so I guess

they do vomit during fits.

[kurnell]

I don't think epileptics vomit during seizure. Nevertheless, cops here are trained in nothing but corruption and laziness (actually the latter is learned non the job)

I lived with an epileptic some years ago and every fit I ever seen him have finished with him vomiting, so I guess

they do vomit during fits.

Interesting. I experienced the exact opposite

[JustWhatTheDoctorOrdered]

I read your girlfriend is a law student.

I suggest you get her to call then local police station and/or hospital to find out what happened to the kid.

This kind of thing in this day and age is outrageous.

If it was my son and he died from such basic ignorant neglect from the people that are paid to protect the public, I would seek retribution of my own, very quietly of course.

[Soutpeel]

All PADi Dive Centres will teach this emergency first response (EFR) as a stand alone in about 6 hours, or as part of a PADi rescue diver course.

I highly recommend it.

But.... it's true, where possible, you must get the victim's or guardian's permission to act (within your training) and in this case I would think the police might qualify as 'guardians' if it came to a court case .!

I don't recall the card issued by EFR is supposed to be some 'get out of jail free' pass.

edit: The police are fekkin idiots and maybe on a kick-back from the local 'rescue' guys. OP you did the best you could in the circumstances and should be proud.

You could also do a first aid course at the offshore O&G training centers such as MOGIT or similar..think the basic stand alone first aid course is half a day, but also agree with you a EFR card is not a "get out jail free card"

[Sayonarax]

I hope the kid made it, otherwise it is a tragic story and those officers should be charged with negligence that resulted in death (fat chance that's going to happen). But I've done an internationally recognized first aid course here in Thailand and you receive a good Samaritan protection card which allows you to act in such situations like this as a first responder before the paramedics arrive and the card protects you from the police pressing charges if you were to carry out the proper procedures in dealing with whatever situation. I recommend people in Thailand who have a little free time to take the course as flashing that card would usually be enough to allow the police to allow you to deal with someone in need of immediate care.

That's useful to know. Any info as to where the courses are held? I went through a 1st aid course in the military but many years ago and even though still remember the procedures I believe some of them have now changed. Example, proper use of a tourniquet had been changed to leave it on continuously to time releases so don't know what else I may be missing.

The qualification I have is from "Emergency First Response" which is a Canadian based company.

This is their website and you can type in your location and it will show you course centers which may be near your location:

http://www.emergencyfirstresponse.com/EFRCourseFinderConsumer/default.aspx

I did it as an elective when I was still studying in an international school in Bangkok.

I am very interested in this course as every week I see accidents in Pattaya when driving. I checked the website, but only courses for Asia Pacific are in Australia. Which Thai government agency provides the protection of a "Good Samaritan protection card". I am visiting Australia for a while so would take the course.

I would check with immigration if that's allowed on a tourist visa.

[pattayadingo]

I don't think epileptics vomit during seizure. Nevertheless, cops here are trained in nothing but corruption and laziness (actually the latter is learned non the job)

I lived with an epileptic some years ago and every fit I ever seen him have finished with him vomiting, so I guess

they do vomit during fits.

Interesting. I experienced the exact opposite

Epilepsy varies with different people as does the reaction. Some vomit, some do not. Some foam at the mouth, some do not.

[Rob8891]

I know what your saying but the FIRST rule upon finding someone unconscious is shaking them and asking them loudly, "ARE YOU ALRIGHT".

Probably wouldn't apply to that situation you describe, but it should always be done.

You ALWAYS first try to rouse the victim.

The story I was told in one of my first aid classes was of a man who came upon a female jogger he thought had passed out on a jogging path.

He couldn't feel a pulse or see a breath response.

Turned out she was simply sleeping there.

He was nearly arrested for sexual assault when he tried to give her mouth-to-mouth breathing.

And, unless there is choking, you DON'T move a head or neck wound, especially in falls.

But you have to make that decision for yourself, and if required to save their life it's your call.

Yes, always try to ascertain the level of consciousness first, but <deleted> not by shaking.....as you correctly say lower down your post "And, unless there is choking, you DON'T move a head or neck wound, especially in falls" ..... chances are that you won't really be able to tell the state of the whole spine, or any other internal damage until you (or a proper medic) make a fuller examination, so shaking the poor sod is not a great idea.

[bunta71]

I don't think epileptics vomit during seizure. Nevertheless, cops here are trained in nothing but corruption and laziness (actually the latter is learned non the job)

I lived with an epileptic some years ago and every fit I ever seen him have finished with him vomiting, so I guess

they do vomit during fits.

I don't think epileptics vomit during seizure. Nevertheless, cops here are trained in nothing but corruption and laziness (actually the latter is learned non the job)

I lived with an epileptic some years ago and every fit I ever seen him have finished with him vomiting, so I guess

they do vomit during fits.

after...got the T shirt

[DLock]

I read your girlfriend is a law student.

I suggest you get her to call then local police station and/or hospital to find out what happened to the kid.

This kind of thing in this day and age is outrageous.

If it was my son and he died from such basic ignorant neglect from the people that are paid to protect the public, I would seek retribution of my own, very quietly of course.

What if it was your son and he died from someone who thought they knew what they were doing...but didn't?

As much as we would like to help someone and do what we "think" is the right thing, the risk that he dies, whether because of our actions or not, they will look to blame someone, and you just became an easy target.

[Phronesis]

Yes there could of been a spinal injury...but I don't think so. The kid froze up and fell off the back of his mate's scoopy that had just accelerated off the lights. I did see his head crack on the road, but there was no visible head injury. The two Thais that dragged him off the roadside did so in a piecemeal fashion by his shirt and one arm and as they grabbed him he started his convulsions. They dragged him to the curb with his upper body on the footpath but his legs still dangling over the gutter and on to the road.

If he had a spinal injury the damage had already been done. And spinal injury on not...the immediate requirement was to get him off is back and clear the vomit from his mouth and nose.

That is what needed to be done and done in the next 60 seconds. I tried, but my efforts were blocked by the two worthless cops (still sitting on their bike) who had ridden into the gutter at the kid's feet. Debate about spinal injuries or subsequent litigation is entirely facile. Either you help someone, or you don't. The RIGHT thing to do was to try and help. I had already risked my life by parking up my bike in the path of the oncoming traffic (and also risked the life of my girl on the back...and the morality of that is admittedly complex), and I would also have rolled the kid into the prone position and cleared his mouth and nose...but I my intent was blocked by two of Thailand's finest.

[ETatBKK]

OP, you did the right thing and you did the thing right ! in the situation of the unconscious kid and two policemen disagreed on any first aid procedure, any action on the kid will bring legal liability. this is a sad story.

hope he managed !

[evadgib]

Bumrungrad are advertising a CPR/first aid course on 27th July for those that are interested...

[manly100]

the bib did what they are told to do, go to the site, call a medic, keep people away and wait for the medic. they don't do what they should do, they do what will cause the least amount of problems for themselves. and they learn this from experience. trying to help people in los is an invitation to have a compensation claim made against you. sadly nothing to do with doing the right thing.