Rice-Pledging Scheme: How Much Have We Lost, Yingluck Asks

[Bagwan]

Note to Indyuk. Buy a dictionary and look up the work traitor.

The majority, if not all, of those who in essence are saying here that this affair has all the ingredients of a mind stunning TV 'soap" or comic farce are not Thai. Ergo, they cannot be traitors.

Denigrating the actions of a convicted felon, his family members and camp followers is not the same as bad mouthing Thailand. I suggest that most are speaking out, thankfully broadcasting views diametrically opposed to yours, because they have the best interests of Thailand and its peoples at heart.

It doesn't require a big step in logic to suppose that you are in favour of corruption to the disadvantage of millions of good Thai people.

[rametindallas]

Their only bloody hope is to quickly set up rice burning energy plants

and convert much of the lost / damaged rice into covering part of the national energy bill.

Of course this takes out-of-the-box, forward thinking and this government has

so little available it is surely a future-grasping-deficit of massive proportions.

Rice contains too much moisture to use it. I've been through this with a couple of helpful members and a few friends. You need to remember that although some 18 million tonnes is quite a large amount [sic] it's dotted around all over the place and will need to be transported to a plant which takes energy, removing the moisture will also take energy and it also takes some energy to exchange the energy from rice. In the end it takes more energy than is given back so you lose.

Can the rotten rice be turned into gasohol?

[ratcatcher]

Their only bloody hope is to quickly set up rice burning energy plants

and convert much of the lost / damaged rice into covering part of the national energy bill.

Of course this takes out-of-the-box, forward thinking and this government has

so little available it is surely a future-grasping-deficit of massive proportions.

Rice contains too much moisture to use it. I've been through this with a couple of helpful members and a few friends. You need to remember that although some 18 million tonnes is quite a large amount [sic] it's dotted around all over the place and will need to be transported to a plant which takes energy, removing the moisture will also take energy and it also takes some energy to exchange the energy from rice. In the end it takes more energy than is given back so you lose.

Can the rotten rice be turned into gasohol?

Apparently.

Edited June 5, 2013 by ratcatcher

[rametindallas]

It seems that most responders to this thread are doing their best to destroy Thailands credibility since they must know that what is written here is devoured by the currency marketers.

Shame on all of those guilty of joining the feeding frenzy of the foreign community that would attempt to keep Thailand's sovereign ratings low. In a sense you are Traitors because none of you know what you are talking about simply because the actual figures have not been published.

Really? Are you that thick? The Thaksin government is doing its best to destroy Thailand's credibility. I can't believe you think Moodys reads opinions of Farangs on ThaVisa LOL!

The 'feeding frenzy' you hear is PTP raping this beautiful land. One cannot be a Traitor to a country that gives one no citizenship rights. There was a statement by a now-transferred government official who spilled the beans on the current losses so we do have some facts to go on. Your post has not one truthful statement and is so sorry that you don't even qualify as a troll or propagandist. 5555555555 at you.

[rametindallas]

^{This PTP government would rather take a beating from Moodys that tell the truth about their failed policies.}

[GentlemanJim]

It seems that most responders to this thread are doing their best to destroy Thailands credibility since they must know that what is written here is devoured by the currency marketers.

Shame on all of those guilty of joining the feeding frenzy of the foreign community that would attempt to keep Thailand's sovereign ratings low. In a sense you are Traitors because none of you know what you are talking about simply because the actual figures have not been published.

A definite contender for the most ludicrous post of the year award. It should be made a sticky.

[Thai at Heart]

It seems that most responders to this thread are doing their best to destroy Thailands credibility since they must know that what is written here is devoured by the currency marketers.

Shame on all of those guilty of joining the feeding frenzy of the foreign community that would attempt to keep Thailand's sovereign ratings low. In a sense you are Traitors because none of you know what you are talking about simply because the actual figures have not been published.

A definite contender for the most ludicrous post of the year award. It should be made a sticky.

As though the weight of Thaivisa opinion moved Moody's . traitors? Who has apparently lied to Moody's?

[NeverSure]

Well, from news releases posted just on this web site:

We know there is a "revolving fund" at the government owned Agricultural Bank for bht500 billion. We also know it is used up buying rice.

We know there was an announcement that it needed to be increased by at least 200 bil to 700 bil.

We know that the government bled off 100 bil of the 200 bil of the Ag bank's capital and spent it. So we know that the Ag Bank has only 100 bil in capital to cover potential losses on the 700 bil or other loans.

So we know that there is an admitted 700 bil in borrowing for the rice scheme, and we don't know what happened to the other 100 bil of capital that was siphoned off. We also don't know how much more there might be that isn't admitted.

Assuming that the 700 bil is all there is, then that is the loss minus any rice stocks which can be sold, and the amount for which they can be sold.

We have no idea where this rice is or what condition it's in. For all we know much of it is stolen. For all we know much of it is rotten. For all we know much of it never existed but money was paid for thin air to someone.

So there is no way of knowing how much of the 700 bil plus the 100 bil is loss. We know only that it is government debt and that it would break the Ag Bank if honest bookkeeping were used.

[Arkady]

Explanations would be given to farmers during the rally, while a

compilation of details on the scheme would be collected. The Bt260

billion figure was likely to be inaccurate and calculated from a "misuse

of criteria", he said.

Bt600(plus) billion spent x 40%(plus) the Govt overpaid for the rice = roughly Bt260 billion. Rocket science not really required to figure losses.

What is a misuse of criteria?

[Arkady]

Cambodia's press proudly reports a surge in exports of rice to Thailand. Go figure.

[Thai at Heart]

Well, from news releases posted just on this web site:

We know there is a "revolving fund" at the government owned Agricultural Bank for bht500 billion. We also know it is used up buying rice.

We know there was an announcement that it needed to be increased by at least 200 bil to 700 bil.

We know that the government bled off 100 bil of the 200 bil of the Ag bank's capital and spent it. So we know that the Ag Bank has only 100 bil in capital to cover potential losses on the 700 bil or other loans.

So we know that there is an admitted 700 bil in borrowing for the rice scheme, and we don't know what happened to the other 100 bil of capital that was siphoned off. We also don't know how much more there might be that isn't admitted.

Assuming that the 700 bil is all there is, then that is the loss minus any rice stocks which can be sold, and the amount for which they can be sold.

We have no idea where this rice is or what condition it's in. For all we know much of it is stolen. For all we know much of it is rotten. For all we know much of it never existed but money was paid for thin air to someone.

So there is no way of knowing how much of the 700 bil plus the 100 bil is loss. We know only that it is government debt and that it would break the Ag Bank if honest bookkeeping were used.

Ask an experienced rice exporter and he will give u an answer.

As an experienced exporter of another commodity from Thailand, crop year is worth 25%.

[mrtoad]

As this was one of their key policies, it's curious how the PM has no idea about it. Oh, sorry forgot, a convicted criminal fugitive in Dubai runs the country.

[NeverSure]

Well, from news releases posted just on this web site:

We know there is a "revolving fund" at the government owned Agricultural Bank for bht500 billion. We also know it is used up buying rice.

We know there was an announcement that it needed to be increased by at least 200 bil to 700 bil.

We know that the government bled off 100 bil of the 200 bil of the Ag bank's capital and spent it. So we know that the Ag Bank has only 100 bil in capital to cover potential losses on the 700 bil or other loans.

So we know that there is an admitted 700 bil in borrowing for the rice scheme, and we don't know what happened to the other 100 bil of capital that was siphoned off. We also don't know how much more there might be that isn't admitted.

Assuming that the 700 bil is all there is, then that is the loss minus any rice stocks which can be sold, and the amount for which they can be sold.

We have no idea where this rice is or what condition it's in. For all we know much of it is stolen. For all we know much of it is rotten. For all we know much of it never existed but money was paid for thin air to someone.

So there is no way of knowing how much of the 700 bil plus the 100 bil is loss. We know only that it is government debt and that it would break the Ag Bank if honest bookkeeping were used.

Ask an experienced rice exporter and he will give u an answer.

As an experienced exporter of another commodity from Thailand, crop year is worth 25%.

But who will disclose where the rice is, and the condition it's in, and how much there really is?

[Thai at Heart]

Well, from news releases posted just on this web site:

We know there is a "revolving fund" at the government owned Agricultural Bank for bht500 billion. We also know it is used up buying rice.

We know there was an announcement that it needed to be increased by at least 200 bil to 700 bil.

We know that the government bled off 100 bil of the 200 bil of the Ag bank's capital and spent it. So we know that the Ag Bank has only 100 bil in capital to cover potential losses on the 700 bil or other loans.

So we know that there is an admitted 700 bil in borrowing for the rice scheme, and we don't know what happened to the other 100 bil of capital that was siphoned off. We also don't know how much more there might be that isn't admitted.

Assuming that the 700 bil is all there is, then that is the loss minus any rice stocks which can be sold, and the amount for which they can be sold.

We have no idea where this rice is or what condition it's in. For all we know much of it is stolen. For all we know much of it is rotten. For all we know much of it never existed but money was paid for thin air to someone.

So there is no way of knowing how much of the 700 bil plus the 100 bil is loss. We know only that it is government debt and that it would break the Ag Bank if honest bookkeeping were used.

Ask an experienced rice exporter and he will give u an answer.

As an experienced exporter of another commodity from Thailand, crop year is worth 25%.

But who will disclose where the rice is, and the condition it's in, and how much there really is?

Apparently. Nattawut

[Roadman]

Note to Indyuk. Buy a dictionary and look up the work traitor.

The majority, if not all, of those who in essence are saying here that this affair has all the ingredients of a mind stunning TV 'soap" or comic farce are not Thai. Ergo, they cannot be traitors.

Denigrating the actions of a convicted felon, his family members and camp followers is not the same as bad mouthing Thailand. I suggest that most are speaking out, thankfully broadcasting views diametrically opposed to yours, because they have the best interests of Thailand and its peoples at heart.

It doesn't require a big step in logic to suppose that you are in favour of corruption to the disadvantage of millions of good Thai people.

Over the course of the last 6 months or so one can look at the board items and at anyone time there are 4 or 5 items on here (as of today) that involve incompetence, wholesale corruption and anti democratic actions from Pheu Thai, Thaksin and his Shinawatra mafia, that in any western democratic country would see those involved in front of the courts and / or out of office by lawful ruling or by shame. Putting aside the Thaksin led and funded terrorist attack on Bangkok and the counter terrorist response from the then government and Army which does polarise opinions I cannot believe that any right minded person who understands democracy and law can actually support this current Thaksin thieving from the thai people. Most of this is not new to Thailand. What is, is the level of corruption and incompetence reaching new heights and the two faced democratic stance portrayed by the puppet lead soap actress Yingluck on the world stage while within Thailand whatever fledgling democracy is gradually being replaced with Cambodian style governance. The biggest losers as always are those at the bottom of the heap who in their uneducated ignorance get a few Baht thrown their way to buy their vote while the latest Amart reap even more at the top.

Speaking out against this injustice is not an attack on Thailand, it is attacking the thieves at the top who I believe have less moral feeling for the average every day thai, and even less if they are the Isaanite Khmer than most of us westerners who love these people and their country as much and for some more than our own. The only traitor I see is the convicted fugitive piece of scum hiding in Dubai.

[rametindallas]

Explanations would be given to farmers during the rally, while a

compilation of details on the scheme would be collected. The Bt260

billion figure was likely to be inaccurate and calculated from a "misuse

of criteria", he said.

Bt600(plus) billion spent x 40%(plus) the Govt overpaid for the rice = roughly Bt260 billion. Rocket science not really required to figure losses.

What is a misuse of criteria?

Nattawut hopes the farmers won't ask what that means.

[rakman]

I can't see it being below 300 Billion myself.

There was mention of stock holding as if it is a positive. Correct me if I am wrong but if someone is in a situation where they are holding something which they bought for a higher value than they are going to be able to sell it for, you want to be holding as little as possible.

What on Earth are they going to do with around 18 million tonnes of insect ridden partially digested rice? This is a serious question I might add. Even if the government admit they were wrong and write off the whole amount or there is a coup or some such. Thailand is still going to have 18 million tonnes of rat magnet which they will have to deal with.

Pay a ton of money to a connected warehouse owner.

[GentlemanJim]

It seems that most responders to this thread are doing their best to destroy Thailands credibility since they must know that what is written here is devoured by the currency marketers.

Shame on all of those guilty of joining the feeding frenzy of the foreign community that would attempt to keep Thailand's sovereign ratings low. In a sense you are Traitors because none of you know what you are talking about simply because the actual figures have not been published.

A definite contender for the most ludicrous post of the year award. It should be made a sticky.

Over the course of the last 6 months or so one can look at the board items and at anyone time there are 4 or 5 items on here (as of today) that involve incompetence, wholesale corruption and anti democratic actions from Pheu Thai, Thaksin and his Shinawatra mafia, that in any western democratic country would see those involved in front of the courts and / or out of office by lawful ruling or by shame. Putting aside the Thaksin led and funded terrorist attack on Bangkok and the counter terrorist response from the then government and Army which does polarise opinions I cannot believe that any right minded person who understands democracy and law can actually support this current Thaksin thieving from the thai people. Most of this is not new to Thailand. What is, is the level of corruption and incompetence reaching new heights and the two faced democratic stance portrayed by the puppet lead soap actress Yingluck on the world stage while within Thailand whatever fledgling democracy is gradually being replaced with Cambodian style governance. The biggest losers as always are those at the bottom of the heap who in their uneducated ignorance get a few Baht thrown their way to buy their vote while the latest Amart reap even more at the top.

Speaking out against this injustice is not an attack on Thailand, it is attacking the thieves at the top who I believe have less moral feeling for the average every day thai, and even less if they are the Isaanite Khmer than most of us westerners who love these people and their country as much and for some more than our own. The only traitor I see is the convicted fugitive piece of scum hiding in Dubai.

And by contrast this a definite contender for one of the best! This should be made a sticky also. Read and weep indyuk.

[Nickymaster]

It seems that most responders to this thread are doing their best to destroy Thailands credibility since they must know that what is written here is devoured by the currency marketers.

Shame on all of those guilty of joining the feeding frenzy of the foreign community that would attempt to keep Thailand's sovereign ratings low. In a sense you are Traitors because none of you know what you are talking about simply because the actual figures have not been published.

You are joking right?

[Arkady]

As this was one of their key policies, it's curious how the PM has no idea about it. Oh, sorry forgot, a convicted criminal fugitive in Dubai runs the country.

She has already said that the relevant officials will give a detailed explanation later. Why isn't that enough for you?

[thaicbr]

As this was one of their key policies, it's curious how the PM has no idea about it. Oh, sorry forgot, a convicted criminal fugitive in Dubai runs the country.

 

She has already said that the relevant officials will give a detailed explanation later.  Why isn't that enough for you?

Later. Later always later.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[paddyjenkins]

As this was one of their key policies, it's curious how the PM has no idea about it. Oh, sorry forgot, a convicted criminal fugitive in Dubai runs the country.

She has already said that the relevant officials will give a detailed explanation later. Why isn't that enough for you?

why is that not enough? because she is a head of state, she is supposed to be somewhat competent, not just a puppet. and because the rice pledging scheme is of enormous economic significance and yet is also simple enough that knowing the answer is obvious. isn't basic knowledge and understanding a reasonable requirement of a head of state? oh, but no, i forgot, not in thailand.

or did the numb skulls running thailand (as opposed to the numb skulls that merely inhabit this mind bogglingly stupid country) just think "it ok, we sell for falang price, the falang pay 100% more for thai rice. thai rice number one, we sell for money mak. if not pay we boxing".

[Thai at Heart]

I think Moody's is doing the country a great service, because no one in Thailand was going to be able to get them to go through this accounting exercise and show the results.

[thaicbr]

I think Moody's is doing the country a great service, because no one in Thailand was going to be able to get them to go through this accounting exercise and show the results.

I agree. BUT let's face it they are ONLY doing the "accounting" now to ensure it does not interfere with the upcoming honey money that is the "infrastructure" loan. And amazingly it still takes them a week to muddle the figures.... sorry give correct figures

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[Thai at Heart]

I think Moody's is doing the country a great service, because no one in Thailand was going to be able to get them to go through this accounting exercise and show the results.

I agree. BUT let's face it they are ONLY doing the "accounting" now to ensure it does not interfere with the upcoming honey money that is the "infrastructure" loan. And amazingly it still takes them a week to muddle the figures.... sorry give correct figures

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Undoubtedly these figures are going to have a big effect on the viability of getting hold of the funds for infrastructure. If you have just been sitting through a presentation in the last few months, and were considering to invest, knowing ALL of the possible pitfalls of doing so in Thailand, and then you discover that one of the fundamental figures presented to you was out by say 250%, it would probably give pause for thought.

[Baerboxer]

It seems that most responders to this thread are doing their best to destroy Thailands credibility since they must know that what is written here is devoured by the currency marketers.

Shame on all of those guilty of joining the feeding frenzy of the foreign community that would attempt to keep Thailand's sovereign ratings low. In a sense you are Traitors because none of you know what you are talking about simply because the actual figures have not been published.

You are joking right?

He must be joking - must be some attempt at satire or something. Nobody could really mean that............ could they???

[Baerboxer]

I think Moody's is doing the country a great service, because no one in Thailand was going to be able to get them to go through this accounting exercise and show the results.

I agree. BUT let's face it they are ONLY doing the "accounting" now to ensure it does not interfere with the upcoming honey money that is the "infrastructure" loan. And amazingly it still takes them a week to muddle the figures.... sorry give correct figures

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Undoubtedly these figures are going to have a big effect on the viability of getting hold of the funds for infrastructure. If you have just been sitting through a presentation in the last few months, and were considering to invest, knowing ALL of the possible pitfalls of doing so in Thailand, and then you discover that one of the fundamental figures presented to you was out by say 250%, it would probably give pause for thought.

Agree - the interest is only on producing nonsense figures to try to protect getting the infrastructure loans. Surely, the international financial community will not be so easily deceived? We shall see.

[Thai at Heart]

I think Moody's is doing the country a great service, because no one in Thailand was going to be able to get them to go through this accounting exercise and show the results.

I agree. BUT let's face it they are ONLY doing the "accounting" now to ensure it does not interfere with the upcoming honey money that is the "infrastructure" loan. And amazingly it still takes them a week to muddle the figures.... sorry give correct figures

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Undoubtedly these figures are going to have a big effect on the viability of getting hold of the funds for infrastructure. If you have just been sitting through a presentation in the last few months, and were considering to invest, knowing ALL of the possible pitfalls of doing so in Thailand, and then you discover that one of the fundamental figures presented to you was out by say 250%, it would probably give pause for thought.

Agree - the interest is only on producing nonsense figures to try to protect getting the infrastructure loans. Surely, the international financial community will not be so easily deceived? We shall see.

Hence Kittirat trying hard to get an upgrade of their ratings and failing only a few months ago. At the end of the day, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but in light of the scandals around Moody's and other ratings agencies in the last few years, they are probably trying their damndest to a better job these days. It's Thailand, it's a developing country, it's riskier than some and less risky than others, but it's risky.

As I said in a previous post, it's not the loss per se, it's the change that gets everyone jittery. If they can't count rice in their own backyard, what else could they be hiding in the closet?

[longway]

^ I think that the thai government's rice pledging scam's current status can be characterised by the metaphor of being up sh@t creek in a leaky boat without a paddle armed only with a drinking straw and the choice of sucking it up or drowning is coming inexorably closer.

Edited June 6, 2013 by longway

[iancnx]

I think a leadership change might get them longer, but yes an early election for sure after the 2.2 trillion baht is secure.

They might pass it in parliament but they still have to find someone to put the money up.

They wont be able to get it from their own banks like they have for the rice mountain and the flood deal, the banks just don't have that sort of money.

Government bonds, that's what Yingluck is swanning around the world selling. But a Moodys downgrade means they will have to offer a higher interest rate.

Debt Restructuring Government Bond

Auction Amount (million baht) 24,000.00

Weighted Average Accepted Yield (%) 3.5203

http://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialMarkets/DebtSecuritiesAuction/AuctionResult/Pages/AuctionResult_GovtBonds.aspx

Thailand's Government Bond Yield for 10 Year Notes rallied 27 basis points during the last 30 days which means it became more expensive for Thailand to borrow money from investors.

Waza do you know if the auction was completely taken up, fully subscribed? If yes, then surely the govt already has the funds? If no, what date is set for a new sale? I am really not clear about this funding; just want to understand better. Thanks