Mp's Say New Visa Rules Causing Anguish For British Families.

[7by7]

Kevin, there is a current topic running on this; and it's not really relevant to this one.

However, from my post in that topic:

EUN2.14 Can family members of British citizens qualify for an EEA family permit? ('Surinder Singh' cases)

Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:
•The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.
•If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.

[Kevin1908]

Kevin, there is a current topic running on this; and it's not really relevant to this one.

However, from my post in that topic:

EUN2.14 Can family members of British citizens qualify for an EEA family permit? ('Surinder Singh' cases)

Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

•The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.

•If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.

Well if there is another post I can look there. I remember seeing the reference somewhere. But on the subject of this thread it makes a mockery of the limit.

[7by7]

Only for those who qualify.

When this financial limit was first proposed there were a series of posts from a member advocating this as a simple way of bypassing the settlement rules.

What needs to be remembered is that first British partner would have to quit their job in the UK and move to another EEA country and have their Thai partner join them there. Or if living in Thailand move from there with their partner to another EEA country.

Once there, if they had not already done so, they would have to find a job, either as employed or self employed. Jobseekers are only allowed to exercise the job seeking treaty right for a maximum of three months; although I believe this can be extended if they can show that they have a reasonable chance of finding a job shortly after the expiry of this time.

Then they would need to chuck all that in and relocate to the UK.

On moving back to the UK whilst there would be no set minimum income or savings required, they would still need to show that they could support themselves without becoming an unreasonable burden upon the state.

A lot of expense, two inter country moves, no guarantee of a job in the UK when they finally arrive.

It may be ideal for some, but not for all.

[nontabury]

Only for those who qualify.

When this financial limit was first proposed there were a series of posts from a member advocating this as a simple way of bypassing the settlement rules.

What needs to be remembered is that first British partner would have to quit their job in the UK and move to another EEA country and have their Thai partner join them there. Or if living in Thailand move from there with their partner to another EEA country.

Once there, if they had not already done so, they would have to find a job, either as employed or self employed. Jobseekers are only allowed to exercise the job seeking treaty right for a maximum of three months; although I believe this can be extended if they can show that they have a reasonable chance of finding a job shortly after the expiry of this time.

Then they would need to chuck all that in and relocate to the UK.

On moving back to the UK whilst there would be no set minimum income or savings required, they would still need to show that they could support themselves without becoming an unreasonable burden upon the state.

A lot of expense, two inter country moves, no guarantee of a job in the UK when they finally arrive.

It may be ideal for some, but not for all.

So would it be possible for a UK citizen who does not have the required income to take his Thai wife and possible children into the UK. To instead take his family to another EEA country, just stay there for ( how long ?) length of time without working and then gain entry to the UK?. If this is so,it just makes a complete mockery of the whole procedure.

Just to-day I have spoken with a Thai lady, divorced from her English husband, who has previously lived in England with her ex and their child. Now she and her British child would like to return and live in the UK, but of course she cannot,however what she intends to do is take her and her child to live with her sister in Sweden(easy entry)and then after a while move on to the UK.Again if she is successful it will make a mockery of these regulations.

[Kevin1908]

Only for those who qualify.

A lot of expense, two inter country moves, no guarantee of a job in the UK when they finally arrive.

It may be ideal for some, but not for all.

True but what I was querying was residing in EU country and setting up EU company and sub contracting back to the UK (through the EU country). ie residing in EU country but commuting to UK and revenues invoiced back through EU country ala Starbucks but they so it through Switzerland.

When I come to my wifes ILR I will be well into retirement and I have no idea what the work situation will be. Given some of the campaigns on going at the moment a 67 year old holding down a job that can be given to an out of work younger person is being frowned upon. Really don't want to find my wife kicked out of the country in 5 years time becuase I (we) fail to make the £18600 limit.

[ava15]

^ this is where it gets laughable.

Say a Greek goes on holiday. Meets a bar girl in Pattaya. Arranges for her to come to Greece on a visa. She gets her Greek passport in due course.

Now they want to try their luck in the U.K. Off they go no problems.

Meanwhile some actual British people are unable to bring their family into the country.

[7by7]

Some confusion here.; people don't seem to have read or understood the criteria from the UKBA website which I posted previously.

To apply under the Surinder Singh ruling;

• The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.
• If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.

So setting up a company in another EEA state and being employed by it whilst living in the UK would not qualify.

Neither would living in another EEA state and working in the UK.

ava15, I don't see your point. If the girl has a Greek passport she has every right to come to the UK the same as a British passport holder has every right to enter Greece.

A Greek citizen can use the EEA freedom of movement rules to live in the UK with his Thai wife just as a British citizen can use the same rules to live with his Thai wife in Greece.

Provided the above criteria are met they then could both use the Surinder Singh ruling to return to their home countries with their wives.

Edited June 25, 2013 by 7by7

[7by7]

When I come to my wifes ILR I will be well into retirement and I have no idea what the work situation will be. Given some of the campaigns on going at the moment a 67 year old holding down a job that can be given to an out of work younger person is being frowned upon. Really don't want to find my wife kicked out of the country in 5 years time becuase I (we) fail to make the £18600 limit.

I understand and sympathise with your predicament completely.

Some people (not you) don't seem to understand that the financial requirement applies at the FLR and ILR stages as well.

However, when applying for FLR and for ILR your wife's income can be used as well as your own; assuming she has any.

So if she is working, hopefully this will be enough; even if you are by then retired.

Remember, too, that in her ILR application all your and her savings can be used, not just those above £16000.

Edited June 25, 2013 by 7by7

[Kevin1908]

Some confusion here.; people don't seem to have read or understood the criteria from the UKBA website which I posted previously.

To apply under the Surinder Singh ruling;

• The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.
• If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.

So setting up a company in another EEA state and being employed by it whilst living in the UK would not qualify.

Neither would living in another EEA state and working in the UK.

ava15, I don't see your point. If the girl has a Greek passport she has every right to come to the UK the same as a British passport holder has every right to enter Greece.

A Greek citizen can use the EEA freedom of movement rules to live in the UK with his Thai wife just as a British citizen can use the same rules to live with his Thai wife in Greece.

Provided the above criteria are met they then could both use the Surinder Singh ruling to return to their home countries with their wives.

I wasn't suggesting living in the UK. Living in an EU country, working for an EU company that that was subcontracting to the UK. Commute to the UK on a weekly basis. The revenues would be invoiced from the EU company and paid overseas. I am not suggesting this will work, only asking.

[7by7]

You have to be living and working in another EEA state; so no.

[nontabury]

You have to be living and working in another EEA state; so no.

There is an interesting article on yesterday's BBC's news regarding the Surinder Singh case, sorry, I don't know how to transfer directly to TV. it does give some examples of how it is possible to gain entry through another EEC country without having to prove the financial requirements, once again proving that British born citizens, do not have the rights in their own country as enjoyed by those from the EEC.

[theoldgit]

There is an interesting article on yesterday's BBC's news regarding the Surinder Singh case, sorry, I don't know how to transfer directly to TV. it does give some examples of how it is possible to gain entry through another EEC country without having to prove the financial requirements, once again proving that British born citizens, do not have the rights in their own country as enjoyed by those from the EEC.

The story is running here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/649158-uk-through-the-back-door-europe/#entry6545942

//Edit: running here in this topic: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/645491-mps-say-new-visa-rules-causing-anguish-for-british-families/page-21?p=6545523#entry6545523 -- Maestro

Edited June 27, 2013 by Maestro
Added edit note

[billd766]

You have to be living and working in another EEA state; so no.

Just a thought.

Would a pensioner to old to work be able to do this?

I am going to stay living in Thailand but it is arousing my curiousity.

[7by7]

Living off independent means, e.g. a pension, is one of the rights under the freedom of movement regulations. So, for example, a British pensioner can use these regulations to live in another EEA state with their Thai spouse.

But, as posted earlier, to qualify to return to the UK using the Surinder Singh ruling the British partner must have actually been working, employed or self employed, in the other EEA state and their Thai partner living there with them.

So a British pensioner cannot use this route to bring their Thai partner into the UK unless they worked whilst living in the other EEA state.

(Edited for typos)

Edited June 26, 2013 by 7by7

[PattayaPhom]

The rules, however, aren't "tearing British families apart". There is always the option of the British partner to go and live in the country of the foreign spouse.

So please tell me what a trained painter,decorator with 3 kids would do for work in Thailand. Think befor posting

[7by7]

You have to be living and working in another EEA state; so no.

There is an interesting article on yesterday's BBC's news regarding the Surinder Singh case, sorry, I don't know how to transfer directly to TV. it does give some examples of how it is possible to gain entry through another EEC country without having to prove the financial requirements, once again proving that British born citizens, do not have the rights in their own country as enjoyed by those from the EEC.

There is no such thing as the EEC anymore!

These freedom of movement treaties and the rights deriving from them have been signed by, and so apply to, all members of the EEA (European Economic Area, which comprises all members of the EU plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) and Switzerland.

Unless they qualify under Surinder Singh, non EEA national family members of EEA nationals cannot use these rights to live in the country of which their EEA family member is a citizen; they have to apply under that countries own immigration rules.

I would not be surprised if somewhere in another EEA state, let's say Germany, someone on a forum similar to this is posting once again proving that German born citizens do not have the rights in their own country enjoyed by those from the EEA!

[AyG]

The rules, however, aren't "tearing British families apart". There is always the option of the British partner to go and live in the country of the foreign spouse.

So please tell me what a trained painter,decorator with 3 kids would do for work in Thailand. Think befor posting

Personally I'd think before acquiring a foreign partner with three children who would have no right to live with me in my home country if I didn't want to live in Thailand.

And given the extremely low levels of skill and education of many foreigners living and working in Thailand, I'd rather doubt that it would be beyond the wits of the trained artisan you describe to find some form of gainful employment here.

[7by7]

Firstly, AyG, what right does any government have to tell one of it's citizens who they may or may not fall in love with?

Secondly, whilst a trained painter and decorator, for example, may very well be able to find gainful employment in Thailand, Thai immigration rules mean that he would not be able to do so legally!

So someone in this position is caught between the UK rules and the Thai rules; a rock and a hard place.

Edited June 26, 2013 by 7by7

[PattayaPhom]

The rules, however, aren't "tearing British families apart". There is always the option of the British partner to go and live in the country of the foreign spouse.

So please tell me what a trained painter,decorator with 3 kids would do for work in Thailand. Think befor posting

Personally I'd think before acquiring a foreign partner with three children who would have no right to live with me in my home country if I didn't want to live in Thailand.

And given the extremely low levels of skill and education of many foreigners living and working in Thailand, I'd rather doubt that it would be beyond the wits of the trained artisan you describe to find some form of gainful employment here.

But the kids are Briish nationals as the Father is British. Also lets say they were married long befor these rules came in. Edited June 26, 2013 by PattayaPhom

[Kevin1908]

The rules, however, aren't "tearing British families apart". There is always the option of the British partner to go and live in the country of the foreign spouse.

So please tell me what a trained painter,decorator with 3 kids would do for work in Thailand. Think befor posting

No there isn't the option to do this, in my case anyway.

To take my kids out of the country I need ex wife's permission. I could I suppose put the kids into the care of the local authority. I could simply abscond with the kids and then force kids who can't speak or write Thai into a Thai school. They are tecnically Thai so I assume that could get accepted into a school. This would of course be against their human rights. Not to mention what I do of course.

You would think people would come up with a better arguement than go and live in the spouse's country.

[Maestro]

Living off independent means, e.g. a pension, is one of the rights under the freedom of movement regulations. So, for example, a British pensioner can use these regulations to live in another EEA state with their Thai spouse.

But, as posted earlier, to qualify to return to the UK using the Surinder Singh ruling the British partner must have actually been working, employed or self employed, in the other EEA state and their Thai partner living there with them.

So a British pensioner cannot use this route to bring their Thai partner into the UK unless they worked whilst living in the other EEA state.

(Edited for typos)

I remember vaguely reading a news report about an illegal immigrant in the UK who could not be deported because a UK court ruled that it would be a violation of his human rights because he had a cat in the UK to which he was attached. In the case of a UK citizen wanting to return from abroad to the UK with his non-UK wife but unable to meet the new UKBA financial requirements, I wonder what the UK courts and, if necessary, on appeal the European Court of Human Rights would decide.

[Jay Sata]

If you read Kevin's post his situation is a bit more complicated.

He talks of an ex wife and children.

[PattayaPhom]

Here is from someone I know. UK national married a Thai 10 years ago, has 3 kids. Came to settle in Thailand 5 years ago at age 46 with sufficient funds to tide him over till he was 50 when he could draw his personal pension. Changes in leglistaion in the meantime he has to wait till 55 years of age. He is a decorator by trade, unable to find employment in Thailand. Has dwindling funds that will finish within a few months. has been offered 2 jobs in the UK but would only allow wife and 1 kid on theses salaries. Only option is for him to work in the UK, send money here and then visit once a year....is this is fair, especially when 8 million people have settled in the UK the past 12 years and the majority claiming benefits etc

[billd766]

Living off independent means, e.g. a pension, is one of the rights under the freedom of movement regulations. So, for example, a British pensioner can use these regulations to live in another EEA state with their Thai spouse.

But, as posted earlier, to qualify to return to the UK using the Surinder Singh ruling the British partner must have actually been working, employed or self employed, in the other EEA state and their Thai partner living there with them.

So a British pensioner cannot use this route to bring their Thai partner into the UK unless they worked whilst living in the other EEA state.

(Edited for typos)

OK thank you for that information.

[7by7]

Here is from someone I know. UK national married a Thai 10 years ago, has 3 kids. Came to settle in Thailand 5 years ago at age 46 with sufficient funds to tide him over till he was 50 when he could draw his personal pension. Changes in leglistaion in the meantime he has to wait till 55 years of age. He is a decorator by trade, unable to find employment in Thailand. Has dwindling funds that will finish within a few months. has been offered 2 jobs in the UK but would only allow wife and 1 kid on theses salaries. Only option is for him to work in the UK, send money here and then visit once a year....is this is fair, especially when 8 million people have settled in the UK the past 12 years and the majority claiming benefits etc

You will see from my previous posts that I am against this new financial requirement and believe that a fairer system should be in place.

But, if the children are his and if he is British otherwise than by descent (basically born in the UK and at least one of his parents is British) then his children are British and so do not need visas to live in the UK.

Therefore only his wife applies and he only has to meet the financial requirement for a spouse; £18,600p.a.

However, as he is currently living in Thailand, not only does he need to show he will have a job paying at least this once in the UK, he will also need to show he has had this income for at least the last 6 months in Thailand.

If he can't do this, then after he has lived in the UK for 6 months earning at least the minimum he will be able to meet the financial requirement and so his wife can apply to join him.

You need to remember that the immigration figure includes students; most of whom leave the UK once they have finished their studies and are unable to claim any benefits whilst here.

Even discounting them, your assertion that the majority of immigrants claim benefits once here is, I believe, incorrect; for starters they cannot do so until they have ILR.

Do you have any figures to support this wild claim ?

[nontabury]

Here is from someone I know. UK national married a Thai 10 years ago, has 3 kids. Came to settle in Thailand 5 years ago at age 46 with sufficient funds to tide him over till he was 50 when he could draw his personal pension. Changes in leglistaion in the meantime he has to wait till 55 years of age. He is a decorator by trade, unable to find employment in Thailand. Has dwindling funds that will finish within a few months. has been offered 2 jobs in the UK but would only allow wife and 1 kid on theses salaries. Only option is for him to work in the UK, send money here and then visit once a year....is this is fair, especially when 8 million people have settled in the UK the past 12 years and the majority claiming benefits etc

You will see from my previous posts that I am against this new financial requirement and believe that a fairer system should be in place.

But, if the children are his and if he is British otherwise than by descent (basically born in the UK and at least one of his parents is British) then his children are British and so do not need visas to live in the UK.

Therefore only his wife applies and he only has to meet the financial requirement for a spouse; £18,600p.a.

However, as he is currently living in Thailand, not only does he need to show he will have a job paying at least this once in the UK, he will also need to show he has had this income for at least the last 6 months in Thailand.

If he can't do this, then after he has lived in the UK for 6 months earning at least the minimum he will be able to meet the financial requirement and so his wife can apply to join him.

You need to remember that the immigration figure includes students; most of whom leave the UK once they have finished their studies and are unable to claim any benefits whilst here.

Even discounting them, your assertion that the majority of immigrants claim benefits once here is, I believe, incorrect; for starters they cannot do so until they have ILR.

Do you have any figures to support this wild claim ?

Maybe people are getting mixed up with immigrants and asylum seekers, as the second group do receive benefits.

[PattayaPhom]

The UK government target the easy option as usual.Just look at the lstest cuts made. Rather than tackle main issues face on and save Billions they prefer to pussy foot around saving a few pennies to avoid confrontation. A good point raised that the guy I know whose kids are by right UK nationals also that he only requires salary to support spouse. Will kids need UK passports or is Thai sufficient?

[bobrussell]

Asylum seekers have the right (moral and legal) to be looked after and helped to the best ability of any and all social services available.

Failed asylum seekers (after proper investigation) should be promptly and efficiently removed from the UK.

If a proper assessment of any claim for asylum is carried out without delay then removal should take place within a matter of weeks and the drain on the taxpayer should be limited.

We just need to have an efficient and effective process for those claiming asylum! The perceived problems then magically go away!

[7by7]

A good point raised that the guy I know whose kids are by right UK nationals also that he only requires salary to support spouse. Will kids need UK passports or is Thai sufficient?

They will need British passports. If they only have Thai ones then they will need visas to enter the UK.

To apply for British passports for them, see here.

Note he will need his original long form birth certificate; if he doesn't have it he can obtain one from the GRO in the UK.

Edited June 27, 2013 by 7by7

[PattayaPhom]

A good point raised that the guy I know whose kids are by right UK nationals also that he only requires salary to support spouse. Will kids need UK passports or is Thai sufficient?

They will need British passports. If they only have Thai ones then they will need visas to enter the UK.

To apply for British passports for them, see here.

Note he will need his original long form birth certificate; if he doesn't have it he can obtain one from the GRO in the UK.

Thanks, will pass that on