Define Poverty - in a Thailand context ...

[ppmacready]

Going to a government school!

[villagefarang]

War, famine, pestilence, natural disaster, something will come along soon enough to sort things out but until then I don’t see anything changing. We just don’t fix things until they are completely broken.

[Cluey]

Yah, mother earth's evolving auto-immune system trying to figure out how to clear out her system of these pesky human parasites.

I love those "save the earth" T-shirts, as if it's nature that needs saving from us. The rats and cockroaches will be around long after the place no longer supports us. . .

[metisdead]

Off topic and trolling posts have been removed. This topic is about Poverty in a Thailand context, not about poverty in Scotland, etc.

[loong]

Once there were two, piece-of-paper friends-they lived in a two dimensional world with only length and breadth to define their paper environment. They lived a happy uneventful life, until one day an eagle swooped down from the sky and grasped one of the friends thinking it was food. Ten metres up realising it wasnt food but a two dimensional piece of paper, the eagle let go. The two dimensional friend fluttered back to earth, suddenly aware that another world beyond his concept of two dimesnions existed and that all that he thought he knew was not true. However he had no words that could accurately describe his experience. His two dimensional friend, just wasnt convinced of his story and couldnt believe him, so the newly enlightened piece of paper lapsed back in two dimensionality where he tried to live happily ever after, despite the nagging cognitive dissonance which haunted his remaining days.

This fable, adapted from the incomparable Carl Sagan describes poverty in Thailand.

Knowledge is power, the impoverished are powerless. Their happiness is relative. We need, all of us, to be eagles.

Yes.

I first came to Thailand 13 years ago and it was quite obvious then that the majority of poor Thais did not know that they were poor. I would think that it was more true 20 or 30 years ago.

My first experience with rural Thais was that they all had a parcel of land where they would grow rice.

They would catch fish and frogs from the paddies, pick bananas from the side of the road. Go out and collect bamboo shoots, insects, grubs or whatever.

They would take work whenever it came up.

When it was time to work in the paddy fields, planting or harvesting, they didn't just go out into their own fields. You would have maybe 10 Families working on one Family's land one day and on another's land the next.

They would work in a line across the fields, chatting and singing. I worked with them and it was hard. They told me that it wasn't work - it was "Sanook"

These people did not have cellphones, internet, only a few had refrigerators or TVs.

They were poor, but they did not know that and they were happy. I am quite sure that if you tried to tell them that they were living below a poverty level, they would not know what you were talking about.

In the short time since I first visited Thailand, things have changed so much.

Now it is important to many of the rural poor that they have the phones, Tvs etc. Many have borrowed on their land to buy these modern items. motorbikes, pick-ups etc. Many have lost their land because of loan defaults.

They may not have realised that they were poor before, but they are sure of it now.

Still, I see a lot of middle aged rural Thais coping with a smile.

The rural Thais always seem to be able to go out and find free food and wood for fuel. They can eat.

Maybe they now realise that they are poor. But for the most part, they have shelter and they can go out and find food. If they are incapable themselves, a family member or friend will always feed them.

I believe that from a Thai perspective, they are not living in poverty.

[villagefarang]

Poverty seems to me, to be a subjective measure and impossible to quantify or define exactly. Governments try to put a measurable number to it but it is a very relative thing in my opinion.

VF ... I agree.

I know that you have lived here half your life and you have seen the Culture from a unique perspective, so maybe a different question for you.

Do you think that the lack of material wealth is at partially compensated for by the simple pleasures that can be found in Thailand?

Those pleasures, combined with the Thai sense of 'Sanok' (fun in everything you do) address some of the balance?

.

One thing that is clear is that this topic is very Farang-centric. Try having a discussion about poverty with a Thai, and depending on where that individual fits into this highly class structured society, you will undoubtedly get a very different reaction. Note I said reaction, not answer.

Some may not be able to grasp what you are on about. Even those capable of articulating an opinion would be unlikely to write anything resembling what we have collectively written here.

In more recent times, I think the lack of material wealth has resulted in many villagers in our area fixating on money and how much things cost. That is usually the first question they ask. “How much?”

I sometime wonder how much of what we might perceive as fun is little more than a dependency on alcohol and a fatalistic resignation to the way things are.

It all reminds me of Janis Joplin singing “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.” With nothing much to lose, they are free to live life one day at a time. Everything is dependent on your fate, so why worry so much.

Many are hopelessly in debt and have embraced a fatalism that is visible in many aspects of their lives. The only thing that seems clear to me, is that they do no measure things with the same ruler we use. I think I may have misplaced my ruler over the years, as I rarely contemplate such things anymore.

[maccaroni man]

Thank you for a very good thread. It always strikes a nerve with me when I read some NGO proclaiming what poverty is.

[chrisinth]

Once there were two, piece-of-paper friends-they lived in a two dimensional world with only length and breadth to define their paper environment. They lived a happy uneventful life, until one day an eagle swooped down from the sky and grasped one of the friends thinking it was food. Ten metres up realising it wasnt food but a two dimensional piece of paper, the eagle let go. The two dimensional friend fluttered back to earth, suddenly aware that another world beyond his concept of two dimesnions existed and that all that he thought he knew was not true. However he had no words that could accurately describe his experience. His two dimensional friend, just wasnt convinced of his story and couldnt believe him, so the newly enlightened piece of paper lapsed back in two dimensionality where he tried to live happily ever after, despite the nagging cognitive dissonance which haunted his remaining days.

This fable, adapted from the incomparable Carl Sagan describes poverty in Thailand.

Knowledge is power, the impoverished are powerless. Their happiness is relative. We need, all of us, to be eagles.

Yes.

I first came to Thailand 13 years ago and it was quite obvious then that the majority of poor Thais did not know that they were poor. I would think that it was more true 20 or 30 years ago.

My first experience with rural Thais was that they all had a parcel of land where they would grow rice.

They would catch fish and frogs from the paddies, pick bananas from the side of the road. Go out and collect bamboo shoots, insects, grubs or whatever.

They would take work whenever it came up.

When it was time to work in the paddy fields, planting or harvesting, they didn't just go out into their own fields. You would have maybe 10 Families working on one Family's land one day and on another's land the next.

They would work in a line across the fields, chatting and singing. I worked with them and it was hard. They told me that it wasn't work - it was "Sanook"

These people did not have cellphones, internet, only a few had refrigerators or TVs.

They were poor, but they did not know that and they were happy. I am quite sure that if you tried to tell them that they were living below a poverty level, they would not know what you were talking about.

In the short time since I first visited Thailand, things have changed so much.

Now it is important to many of the rural poor that they have the phones, Tvs etc. Many have borrowed on their land to buy these modern items. motorbikes, pick-ups etc. Many have lost their land because of loan defaults.

They may not have realised that they were poor before, but they are sure of it now.

Still, I see a lot of middle aged rural Thais coping with a smile.

The rural Thais always seem to be able to go out and find free food and wood for fuel. They can eat.

Maybe they now realise that they are poor. But for the most part, they have shelter and they can go out and find food. If they are incapable themselves, a family member or friend will always feed them.

I believe that from a Thai perspective, they are not living in poverty.

"They were poor, but they did not know that and they were happy"

That one line speaks a thousand words for me. Poverty is not just about financial income.

Good post Loong........................

[mogandave]

Poverty is a state ov mind. Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

[benalibina]

Poverty is a state ov mind. Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

Eyeopener !

[PaullyW]

When I talk about poverty to friends in the Western World - I differentiate it by saying that there are few desperately poor here. The distinction being that shelter of some sort is easily managed and food will be provided at any temple - the monks will share. And it seems to me that many middle or lower middle class people in the West, living paycheck to paycheck, have a deep rooted fear of becoming homeless.

One definition of poverty says - it is measured relative to what your neighbor has -

I have always felt that most poor Thais have a better life and are happier than most middle or lower middle class Westerners..

I agree, but let's not forget that 'better' must be defined. Not everyone (especially many Christians) believes that to be happy is the most important goal in life. Western society (at it's best, especially) requires great sacrifice. That is our burden to shoulder and I'm sure many would prefer to shoulder it knowing that it plays more to typical Western values and goals in life. Japan is also an extremely difficult place to live and survive, but I doubt you'll find many Japanese who would trade their values and 'world' for the Thais' and Thailand.

[Cluey]

I agree, but let's not forget that 'better' must be defined. Not everyone (especially many Christians) believes that to be happy is the most important goal in life. Western society (at it's best, especially) requires great sacrifice. That is our burden to shoulder and I'm sure many would prefer to shoulder it knowing that it plays more to typical Western values and goals in life.

-

Hmm, I'm very curious and hope I'm misunderstanding colonial echoes there - what goals in life are more important than human happiness?

Why do Christians value those goals more so than those of other religions or atheists?

Not saying I'm disagreeing at all since I don't yet know what you're referring to, genuinely looking to find out more.

[Cluey]

Poverty is a state ov mind. Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

-

Yes, most spiritual paths including Buddhism advocate letting go of all striving, all effort to acquire what you desire, letting go of the desires themselves.

But of course that is in direct opposition to the whole paradigm underlying modern life - the modern world is set up to force the common man to strive just to survive and to increase all the things we must desire to be accepted socially, not many places left even in Thailand where people can live off the fat of the land outside the cash economy anymore.

[benalibina]

Poverty from a thai perspective is what the OP asked. Loosing face is what i stated before and want to add that when the persons wrongdoing is at such an extend that even the familyties are disconnected therefore, 1 lives in poverty !

[ongchart]

The richest person is someone who has enough. Poverty is relative. I spend a lot of time in Nakhon Phanom and Sakon Nakhon. Many houses there are very basic. Most people live off the land, with little or no hard cash most part of the year until their rice harvest. Guess what- Nakhon Phanom was voted the happiest province, and Bangkok the unhappiest.

So what is poverty?

[smooth expat]

Interesting post. This point strikes me the most, too: the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions.

Upon returning to the U.S., in comparison to SEA (and places like Haiti) I'd be extremely hard pressed to let someone tell me they live in poverty. But then there's that term 'socially acceptable'. In this case, poverty can be seen as directly linked with dignity. If others around are without material comforts, then one doesn't feel impoverished.

Paradoxically then, as Thailand develops, it will also become increasingly impoverished -- as poor Thais will see more and more often the things with which they go without.

I think you haven't been around much. There are lots of people living out of their cars in the USA these days(!). And a significant part of the population have no health care. Try finding a Thai who can't find affordable housing. Or gets turned away at the hospital due to lack of health care coverage. I think there is less poverty in Thailand than the USA.

[MrZM]

Define poverty on Thailand:

Mmmm

If you don't have a farlang husband paying for your family, I guess your in poverty.

Lol hahaha

[mogandave]

Poverty is a state ov mind. Happiness isn't getting what you want, it's wanting what you have.

-

Yes, most spiritual paths including Buddhism advocate letting go of all striving, all effort to acquire what you desire, letting go of the desires themselves.

But of course that is in direct opposition to the whole paradigm underlying modern life - the modern world is set up to force the common man to strive just to survive and to increase all the things we must desire to be accepted socially, not many places left even in Thailand where people can live off the fat of the land outside the cash economy anymore.

You don't have to live off he "...fat of the land..." or be on a "...spiritual path.." to be happy. Plenty of happy guys grunting out a living that get to leave the work at work when they go home.

Money makes life easier, it does not necessarily make it better.

[David48]

Dave....thats the thing that really depresses me, when i see the humpies they live in....All thats needed is for someone with a bit of spare cash, to help out with straightening out the place with some new tin etc...slowely they will go forward....like here where i am. All the humpies are starting to disappear, and being replaced with small but functional brick houses....

Sometimes there are reasons why they live in a humpy ... from my limited experience is because the land the house sits on has no permanent tenure. You sometimes see that with the water front propertys throughout Thailand ... they build 'illegally'.

The shots below make these buildings appear as if they are on the water, when indeed, they are not.

Just that, for the best view I took the shots across the Farm Pond.

This is one of the aunts' houses.

It is a different view of the one in the OP.

A few metres away is her other house.

Both are built on the Farm Fathers land out of courtesy ... there is no tenure.

The Aunt, after a break-up with her then husband had no place to live so she came to the Farm looking for help, so the Farm Father offered a place to build ... maybe on a temporary basis ... I'm not sure about that.

In the old shack lives the Aunt, her mother, her half-brother and her grandson ... the boy in the OP.

. . . .. . .

Four generations ... one abode . . . .The half-brother and a small glimpse inside

In the newer, fibro sheeted place lives her daughter (sometimes) and someone else of unknown origin.

Neither property (houses above) pays any sort of land rent but do use a little of the Farms infrastructure.

Such is life in some parts of Thailand.

Edited June 13, 2013 by David48

[wooloomooloo]

There are lots of people living out of their cars in the USA these days(!). And a significant part of the population have no health care. Try finding a Thai who can't find affordable housing. Or gets turned away at the hospital due to lack of health care coverage. I think there is less poverty in Thailand than the USA.

I define mid-range poverty as not having access to the disposable income as the next man, other than genuine hardship where the impoverished can't afford to eat. That's poverty.

Material ownership, such as whether one owns an X-Box, or not, for example, has nothing to do with poverty.

[weegee]

Dave....thats the thing that really depresses me, when i see the humpies they live in....All thats needed is for someone with a bit of spare cash, to help out with straightening out the place with some new tin etc...slowely they will go forward....like here where i am. All the humpies are starting to disappear, and being replaced with small but functional brick houses....

Sometimes there are reasons why they live in a humpy ... from my limited experience is because the land the house sits on has no permanent tenure. You sometimes see that with the water front propertys throughout Thailand ... they build 'illegally'.

The shots below make these buildings appear as if they are on the water, when indeed, they are not.

Just that, for the best view I took the shots across the Farm Pond.

LR DSCF5528.JPG

This is one of the aunts' houses.

It is a different view of the one in the OP.

LR DSCF5529.JPG

A few metres away is her other house.

Both are built on the Farm Fathers land out of courtesy ... there is no tenure.

The Aunt, after a break-up with her then husband had no place to live so she came to the Farm looking for help, so the Farm Father offered a place to build ... maybe on a temporary basis ... I'm not sure about that.

In the old shack lives the Aunt, her mother, her half-brother and her grandson ... the boy in the OP.

LR DSCF7039.JPG . . . .. . . LR DSCF6400.JPG

Four generations ... one abode . . . .The half-brother and a small glimpse inside

In the newer, fibro sheeted place lives her daughter (sometimes) and someone else of unknown origin.

Neither property (houses above) pays any sort of land rent but do use a little of the Farms infrastructure.

Such is life in some parts of Thailand.

Hopefully their luck will change for the better one day....

[kannot]

Surely poverty should mean only one thing, your'e going to die due to lack of food or are seriously underweight.

What does it mean in Thailand though, no pick up ? the house aspect isn't important to them at all in many cases.

I don't like this re defining of poverty, what no mobile phone or tv......poor chap he must be in poverty.

[kannot]

There are lots of people living out of their cars in the USA these days(!). And a significant part of the population have no health care. Try finding a Thai who can't find affordable housing. Or gets turned away at the hospital due to lack of health care coverage. I think there is less poverty in Thailand than the USA.

I define mid-range poverty as not having access to the disposable income as the next man, other than genuine hardship where the impoverished can't afford to eat. That's poverty.

Material ownership, such as whether one owns an X-Box, or not, for example, has nothing to do with poverty.

What ??? we have ranges of poverty now as well!!!

[Dancealot]

Surely poverty should mean only one thing, your'e going to die due to lack of food or are seriously underweight.

What does it mean in Thailand though, no pick up ? the house aspect isn't important to them at all in many cases.

I don't like this re defining of poverty, what no mobile phone or tv......poor chap he must be in poverty.

Agreed,

Living on a farm may seam poor to some; to others this seams like a sign of wealth.

It all depends on how one looks at things.

You used the term re-defining, am i correct?

Edited June 13, 2013 by Dancealot

[meatboy]

only once in 30yrs.have i witnesed what i would devine as poverty,a youg kid about 10 yrs.old trying to climb a rubbish bin outside a resturant near us at miday when closed,the kid was so dirty you couldnt tell if it was girl or boy,the wf.went and bought some food near by and gave it to [girl] who was so hungry she didnt even thank her,so this is what i would say is not living but surviving as to not die.that is poverty.

[David48]

only once in 30yrs.have i witnesed what i would devine as poverty,a youg kid about 10 yrs.old trying to climb a rubbish bin outside a resturant near us at miday when closed,the kid was so dirty you couldnt tell if it was girl or boy,the wf.went and bought some food near by and gave it to [girl] who was so hungry she didnt even thank her,so this is what i would say is not living but surviving as to not die.that is poverty.

Thanks for sharing this story.

Personally, I haven't witnessed what you did on that day.

Nice that you didn't turn your back on the girl ...

By comparison, the boy in the OP has a (rusty) roof over head, food in his belly, people who care about him and possibly a bright future.

.

[benalibina]

To the OP.

What are your girlfriends, parents etc answers to your question ?

[David48]

To the OP.

What are your girlfriends, parents etc answers to your question ?

Interesting ... I'm not with them at the moment ... next time I see them ... I'll ask.

.

[caughtintheact]

This thread raises an interesting issue: Do people whom we perceive as living in poverty feel impoverished?

Money not only increases choices, but can also be defined as something that we exchange for goods or services that has more value to us at the time of a transaction than the money itself.

Some people that appear to be very poor in Thailand choose to live that way to save money. In some cases there may be 3 or 4 wage earners in a family. Paying little or no rent and minimizing their other expenses allows them to save for such things as the education of their children whom they hope will be more affluent and be able to care for the parents when they can no longer work. Thailand also has a low unemployment rate, and people are known to work more than one job. So perhaps what appears to be living in poverty could be by choice in some or many instances, and does not necessarily mean that the people are impoverished. In addition, instead of looking at individual GDP as a measure of poverty or wealth, it makes more sense to look at family GDP, and instead of looking at nominal purchasing power, Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) gives a better idea of how to compare purchasing power between counties. Then there is the idea of "we've always done it this way" which may be a significant factor in explaining why people do not appear to strive for affluence. Also, conspicuously absent in this discussion to date is any mention of Buddhism and its influence on reducing desire for material wealth.

[David48]

Do people whom we perceive as living in poverty feel impoverished?

Particularly applauding your opening sentence "Do people whom we perceive as living in poverty feel impoverished?" ... could have been the alternative title for the OP.

As for "conspicuously absent in this discussion to date is any mention of Buddhism and its influence on reducing desire for material wealth." ... I have no idea.

Probably waiting for a few of the guys from the Buddhism Forum to drop by ... would be interesting to receive their opinion.

.