What Is A Ladyboy?

[geraldmickelwhite]

Good God!

After my first trip to Thailand, I am in a state of horrific confusion.

Prior to my visit, I was aware of transvestites, transsexuals, or whatever they are, in the USA and in other Western countries.

Mostly men who turned themselves into ugly women of sorts.

However, while in Thailand, I saw quite another story entirely:

Beautiful MEN living as women!

I have been doing a lot of internet "research" and outside of brainiac sites like http://www.transacademics.com or outright porno sites like http://www.ladyboyblue.com

I see very little out there regarding the ORIGINS of this whole Thai ladyboy phenomena.

Fellow board members:

When did this Thai ladyboy gig start?

Is it milleniums-old or something current and fashionista?

Are these people gay?

Good grief, am I gay????

I have NOT touched any of these people.

I do not intend to do so.

However, they are so good-looking they terrify me.

Perhaps no more trips to Thailand for ME???

[ivorbishop]

the difference between a man and a woman has got a lot to do with the genitalia

[britmaveric]

Hmmm well each to their own for their likes/dislikes.

Tolerant carefree Thai attitudes are largely responsible which is a lesson that should be learned everywhere.

[ivorbishop]

but there is no difference between a man's and a woman's mouth..........32 teeth and a tongue

[ivorbishop]

sure you've got to be tollerant here at going home time, most guys have met a boy named Sue and you won't hear about it on this web site

[BambinA]

When did this Thai ladyboy gig start?

long time ago , follow adam 'n eva ..adiva was born

Is it milleniums-old or something current and fashionista?

not fashion ,i reckon

Are these people gay?

no

[ivorbishop]

this gig didn't start that long ago, but the participants have come along in leaps and bounds.........you can't tell me you've never seen a beautiful one ?????????????

[PeaceBlondie]

We've discussed this a lot in the Gay forum; you might want to take a peek. I mean, if your original post is sincere.

There is a caricature, a stereotype, of gay man in Thailand, usually called "katoey," with various spellings. They wear makeup, maybe even go transvestite and dress as a woman, they try to speak in choirboy counter-tenor, they make exaggerated body gestures, and they're what some Westerners call overly 'camp.'

Then there are lots of gay Thai men, like my boyfriend, who acts like a man unless he's behind closed doors. You also wouldn't be able to tell that I'm gay unless you brought the subject up.

However, if they have the big operations (not just wear a padded bra), then they're no longer consider men or katoeys and are just female women girls with female genitalia. Not gay any more; just female.

I just got one of the definitive books on the subject, about gay Thais, and it's several hundred pages long.

Huge subject. Thai gender orientation is more a matter of what's inside the brain, than what's inside the underpants.

[seonai]

I read onnce that there was research to prove a massive amount of men wanting to be women in Thailand. Some professor or other put it down to genes. It is acceptable here so that's obviously something to do with it but I think there are more 'ladyboys' here than any other country I have seen. Even in my son's school at age 10, there are emerging ladyboys - also accepted!

[GU22]

The following is an interesting paper by Andrew Matzner (Independent researcher and Adjunct Professor in Women's Studies at the Hollins University, Virginia, USA.) on the subject On the Question of Origins: Kathoey and Thai Culture

[LaoPo]

Transgender, Katoey, Khatoey, transsexual...it's a complicated item and not so easy to explain, let alone to understand.

Source: Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trans...-related_topics

""List of transgender-related topics

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Transgender is a very complex topic, where definitions are often still up in the air. Usually, the only way to find out how exactly people identify themselves is to ask them, and sometimes, transgender people either cannot or will not define themselves any more specifically than transgender, queer, or genderqueer.

Books and articles written about transgender people or culture are often outdated by the time they are published, if not already outdated at the time of composition, due to inappropriate and/or outdated questions or premises. Not only psychology and medicine, but also social sciences deal with transgender people, and each starts from a very different point of view, offers very different perspectives, and uses a different nomenclature. The difference is mirrored by the attitude of transgendered people towards transgender issues, as can be seen in the articles listed below.""

LaoPo

Edited March 30, 2006 by LaoPo

[Guest endure]

The phenomenon of transexuality in Asia isn't confined to Thailand. Before Uncle Lee popped up there was quite a large group of TS in Singapore with Bugis Street as their playground. Also to be found in Penang and Fort Butterworth. As far as the OP is concerned - joined today - first post - stereotypically controversial subject. Couldn't be a troll? Surely not!

[bbigman21]

A ladyboy is just what the name implies. And if you are aking us if you are gay well you might be.

Edited March 30, 2006 by bbigman21

[GU22]

As far as the OP is concerned - joined today - first post - stereotypically controversial subject. Couldn't be a troll? Surely not!

Don't know about the OP, but as for 'ivorbishop'; joins last August, lurks of 7 months and then posts crap designed to wind people up. Familiar behaviour from a well known serial troll.

[britmaveric]

As far as the OP is concerned - joined today - first post - stereotypically controversial subject. Couldn't be a troll? Surely not!

Don't know about the OP, but as for 'ivorbishop'; joins last August, lurks of 7 months and then posts crap designed to wind people up. Familiar behaviour from a well known serial troll.

Uh yeah did see that - his history of posts do seem a bit of a lark.

[Mighty Mouse]

Now I'm worried.

I only like girls so I must be a lesbian.

[bbigman21]

I have always Thought I was a lesbian

[Kerryd]

My first thought was "Troll".

But then I thought, What the hel_l, I feed the soi dogs, why not the trolls ?

I see a number of katoeys and ladyboys in my neighbourhood.

From young boys prancing around in girls clothing and make-up, to the older ones who've earned enough money to start the medical procedures. There is also a couple of out-and-out gay guys living in the building, completely different than the "lady-boys".

In Thailand, I believe the katoeys are (legally) considered "Women of the Second Category", referring to girls that used to be guys. They come in all shapes, sizes and "gender status" (as in, how far along they have gone towards their conversion).

I have a totally unscientific theory about the lady-boys.

For many, many years now, large numbers of the poorer and least educated girls in Thailand have made a very good living in certain areas and "industries". The men are usually confined to less glamourous and lower-paying jobs like taxi-drivers and construction workers.

Those boys and young men see the girls bringing in the big money (relatively speaking) and living the high life. Not really doing any work, dripping in gold and partying all the time. A lot of men naturally would like a piece of that action.

Eventually, some started dressing and acting like women (trannies). They didn't have sex-change operations back then, so they had to be "creative" in more ways than one.

Some of those men had success in their new roles. That success lead to more men giving it a try.

Thai (Buddhist) society didn't condemn them the way western societies do. This lead to a unspoken acceptance of this practise.

Eventually, medical technology allowed these people to start the process towards actually becoming women (estrogen treatments, breast enlargements, "gender reassignment surgery"). Suddenly, men were looking very much like women, living similar lifestyles and bringing in similar money. Still not totally accepted by society (hence the "women of the 2nd category" legal status), but not rejected by that society either.

Young boys are growing up seeing the sexy girls parading around, and seeing an increasing number of katoeys looking the same as those girls. Those boys see their parents slaving away at regular jobs (tailors, laundries, food vendors, ect) and naturally want something better.

They start emulating the katoeys, sort of like young kids in the west emulate their sports and rock star heroes. Eventually, some of those kids grow up and take the next steps (beginning the medical process and starting to "work"). Much like the girls that get tattoos all over their bodies, the boys don't seem to think about the long-term consequences of their actions.

And now you see the results of those years and years of "evolution" in Thai society. Are katoeys gay ? Are they sexually confused ? Are they simply trying to get a piece of the action ? Do they view it as a "job" like many of the girls do ? Or is it a combination of the above ?

I don't get out of the city as often as I should (and could). What is the situation like in the small villages scattered throughout the poorer regions of the country ? Do you see a lot of the young boys there dressing and acting like girls ? Or does this mainly happen in the larger urban centers like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket ?

Edited March 30, 2006 by Kerryd

[Donz]

Im pretty sure i can tell the difference,

Ladyboys will always be men to me, i know alot of people on another Thailand forum who say they look like women, dress like women and are women down below (operation) so they are females.

No way i say. I believe they are gay (not everyone will agree) but if a man dresses up like a woman and want to get with a man then that is being gay in my book.

There is nothing wrong with being gay ofcourse

[Jai Dee]

What is the situation like in the small villages scattered throughout the poorer regions of the country ? Do you see a lot of the young boys there dressing and acting like girls ? Or does this mainly happen in the larger urban centers like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket ?

It's not limited to the main cities... there's a khatoey in my missus' village in backwoods Korat in Issan.

[peter991]

Interesting question, Kerryd. To add to Jai Dee's reply, I have just come back to Australia after spending a couple of weeks in my boyfriend's remote Issan village.

An old man from the village passed away and prior to the funeral, the whole village took part in 5 days of singing and dancing (and drinking). This included a number of teenage males from Nong Khai who were distant relatives of the deceased.

One of my boyfriend's Thai friends is a pre-op ladyboy in his late teens. Without going into any graphic detail, let's just say that the male teens from Nong Khai were very aroused by the ladyboy's flirting with them - even though they insisted they were all straight.

To them, a ladyboy is the same as a female.

Peter

[PeaceBlondie]

As with gender orientation discussions in the Western world, these discussions bog down instantly because we don't or can't agree on definitions. I suspect that 'katoey' and 'gay' and 'transsexual' and 'transvestite' each have distinctly separate definitions.

I've been gay in Thailand for three years now, and still I'm not sure if all katoeys are pre-op, just praying for the day they'll get their organs chopped off and grow some girlie parts.

Also, some perfectly straight, women-pentrating men like to dress up in women's clothes occasionally. I have never wanted to do that.

Perfectly straight thinking, straight acting Thai men resemble what Aussies think are pooves. They act more 'softly' than the overly macho, agressive, peacock-strutting cowboys. And thanks to "Brokeback Mountain," we have to reassess what cowboys do!

Very complex subject, and I'm moving this thread to the Gay in Thailand Forum, where it probably belongs. Everybody's welcome there, even if you have six heterosexual children, as I have.

[TokyoT]

XX or XY?

[Kerryd]

What is the situation like in the small villages scattered throughout the poorer regions of the country ? Do you see a lot of the young boys there dressing and acting like girls ? Or does this mainly happen in the larger urban centers like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket ?

It's not limited to the main cities... there's a khatoey in my missus' village in backwoods Korat in Issan.

OK, but was that khatoey working/living in the "city" and returned home, or did he/she become a khatoey while living in the village ?

Not that it really matters either way.

[TokyoT]

What is the situation like in the small villages scattered throughout the poorer regions of the country ? Do you see a lot of the young boys there dressing and acting like girls ? Or does this mainly happen in the larger urban centers like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket ?

It's not limited to the main cities... there's a khatoey in my missus' village in backwoods Korat in Issan.

OK, but was that khatoey working/living in the "city" and returned home, or did he/she become a khatoey while living in the village ?

Not that it really matters either way.

OK not THAT khatoey specifically, but there are plenty of khatoey born, and raised in Udon from what I have seen. Sure some of them make it to the big city, and some have to settle for Pattaya. But still plenty in Udon that don’t make the trek.

[Digger]

I know quite a few ladyboys and all of them without exception consider themselves women regardless of whether they have had SRS surgery - some are on hormones and easily pass as women to almost everyone including other ladyboys. Some of the one's I know work in the nightlife industry and others work in normal day jobs, with some earning very substantial amounts of money. The higher up they get career wise, the more barriers they seem to face in terms of getting into better positions primarily due to stigma from bosses.

Personally, I believe that a ladyboy who takes these challenges on board and is successfull is a very determined person - to take these knocks and continue without deviation is I believe a sure sign of a strong character - I'm really surprised more people dont see this and harness this potential.

Some of the ladyboys I know in the nightlife industry are there for a clear purpose - i.e quick way of getting money to pay for surgery they want - others look on it as the easiest job to do recognising the stigma's they face.

The ones I know are all full time ladyboys - be it in Bangkok, Pattaya or when they go home wherever home is - to them they are a women. Many of them describe their male genitals as a spare part that apart from urinating serves no purpose - they tend to be the one's most determined to undergo surgery. Others dont care about it and can and still do use it for its original purposes. There seems to be no clear opinion other than they all consider themselves women, regardless of surgery, hormones, etc.

I do remember when I first came to Thailand, I held a negative view about ladyboys however this continues to evolve to the point where now I have quite a few close friends and would consider forming a relationship with one if I met someone I was attracted to. Some might call that gay, but I dont - I never think of a ladyboy as a man and am totally comfortable in their company, eating at restuarants, going to bars etc etc. I also know quite a few male friends who hold similar opinions including one who is living in a relationship with a pre-op ladyboy and has been for two years. Everybody just considers them a normal couple and they seem happy enough together.

One thing I have noticed though is that the nightlife industry seems to attract the worst characters which is really not that different from ordinary girls, gay guys etc.

[Ijustwannateach]

Time to sweep under the bridge again?

[sjaak327]

No way i say. I believe they are gay (not everyone will agree) but if a man dresses up like a woman and want to get with a man then that is being gay in my book.

There is nothing wrong with being gay ofcourse

Well, it matters how you look at it, in their minds they are wonan, so then they wouldn't be gay for wanting to sleep with men. And I guess this is certainly the case for post op Katoeys.

Personally, I believe that a ladyboy who takes these challenges on board and is successfull is a very determined person - to take these knocks and continue without deviation is I believe a sure sign of a strong character - I'm really surprised more people dont see this and harness this potential.

I couldn't agree more.

Anyway OP is a troll. Has all the signs.

[PeaceBlondie]

Hey, who cares if a more or less successful discussion was begun by a troll, a leprechaun, or Thempoloae Q. Gonosoforth?

If you'll look through the Gay Forum thread titles, back a page or two, we've discussed this at least twice, maybe 86 times.

[gregchambers]

Sorry, but my main objection to these katoeys, in 99 percent of cases, is their UGLINESS. I want ugly "women". I'd stay in the UK