What Is A Ladyboy?

[Sangsom]

Just a small story about how local people can talk about these things. In my soi live several families with children aging from 12-16 I guess mostly. Many come to my house to play pool and other games with my straight house boy (27) and his girl friend. One of the guys is extremely feminine is his behaviour, especially in the way he walks and moves. One day I said to my boy: “I would not be surprised as one day he might turn out to be gay.” The reply was: “No, no he is not gay he is lady boy. He likes to be a girl, you can see that!” He was really surprised that I did not understand that right away. The other children and their parents behave totally normal towards him and fully accept him as he is. Not one time did I see someone laughing a bit or ridiculing him.

Talking then about gay and lady boy I must say it became difficult to understand as they seem to differ from westerns to what gay is. "Gay boy" can also be used in a negative way I found out. "That guy is not boy, he is gay boy, money boy!" Referring with “boy” to the straight/bi bar boys. Those are alright in his opinion. A gay boy he thinks of as a fortune hunter. Asking him if I (who never kissed a girl in his life) was gay in his opinion he replied: “No you are not a gay man!” That was new to me!

All these things however don't surprise him at all. It is so normal that mostly they don’t bother even to talk about it. It is not a hot topic if someone is gay or straight or bi.

Only one time he was surprised. He told me about a family he knew that had two children, a girl and a boy and the boy was lady boy and the girl was . . . well he did not know how to explain but it turned out that she was what we call a lesbian. That he found utterly surprising, two in one family, not the fact that they were as they were!

I am not saying that this attitude is "standard" here in Thailand but I must say that I have heard people talking about this subject in a similar way more often.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Sangsom

[peter991]

So I guess we can sumarise by saying one of the main reasons we love to either live in Thailand or visit LOS regularly is that it is probably the most un-homophobic place on Planet Earth.

Each to his/her own and Live and Let Live.

Peter

[PeaceBlondie]

A friend returned from Isaan to tell about his boyfriend's village, where one of the male teachers is a katoey who dresses up in women's clothing when not at the school campus. Apparently this katoey grew up there, got a job as ajarn, and is well understood there.

Yes, I'm not sure if all Thais agree on the difference between katoey and gay in their own language, since "gay" is probably a modern loan-word from English. The barboys who have gay customers don't make it clear, either.

I still get the impression that some gay Thai men don't consider themselves katoeys, but do realize they are something like "gay man."

And we're not necessarily talking about Thais who do sex for short-time compensation. In fact, it's better if we keep that to a minimum, because there appear to be a very high number of gay or bisexual Thai men who don't do it for money.

Again, if you'll search this forum, you 'll find previous, similar discussions.

[bina]

yup>>>

a friend of mine's daughters' teacher in muu baan in buriram is a kotoey;

my friend's daughter dresses as a man, acts as a man etc... at age 8 she is 'tom' ;

his 4 yr old boy acts as a girl; i asked if he would not keep them in the family as they get older.(unlike many friends in the states that the families disowned their 'alternative lifestyle children'..

he didnt even understand the question: 'family is family'

an other friend in a muu baan near udon has a neighbor with an 8 yr old 'ladyboy'....

i taught english to first through sixth grade and there were at least five ladyboy types (in ban chiang).... nobody batted an eyelash....

i found many thai men enjoy putting on lipstick (the actors in morlum do so why cant they); like what i consider feminine perfumes (the sweet kinds of perfume).... etc.... but thats the limit....

actually who cares???!!!!

[farang prince]

What is the situation like in the small villages scattered throughout the poorer regions of the country ? Do you see a lot of the young boys there dressing and acting like girls ? Or does this mainly happen in the larger urban centers like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket ?

It's not limited to the main cities... there's a khatoey in my missus' village in backwoods Korat in Issan.

OK, but was that khatoey working/living in the "city" and returned home, or did he/she become a khatoey while living in the village ?

Not that it really matters either way.

It is obvious Kerryd that you have never had any experience with a ladyboy. My ladyboy is from a medium-sized city in the south-central part of Thailand. She started her transformation from a man to a ladyboy when she was only ten. Her older brother is also a ladyboy. Are ladyboys gay? In the technical term, they would be. But it might surprise you to know that many ladyboys are not promiscuous -- especially in comparison to gay males. Many have very limited sexual experiences. The issue of the "third sex" as ladyboys are known in Thailand is one that seems to be only a big issue to farangs. Why should farangs try to foist off their cultural biases in Thailand? If you don't like how things are, go home. Or you might want to take the time to actually get to know a ladyboy -- not in a bar or cabaret setting -- but meet one in a normal setting some time and see what they are all about. You might be surprised.

[cdnvic]

If you don't like how things are, go home.

cv

[dukkha]

PB, the term used in Awstrayia is actually not 'pooves'..the variations are 'poofter', 'poof', 'poofta', 'poofters'...its derivation may well be anglo, but not sure...slightly digressing as is my wont, in Australian culture the two words used to denegrate somewhere in the nastiest way are to call them either a '######' or a 'poofter'...says a lot about my culture that people use a womans sex organ or a gay man as the highest form of 'put down'...ignorance is far from bliss in my opinion..sorry if I have transgresseed language rules, I am sure you will edit accordingly, no disrespect intended, on the contrary... dukka

[ProThaiExpat]

Many of the posts in this thread have a ascribed a sexual basis in discussing any man who desires to be a woman or act like one.

My understanding is that men such as these, are emotionally and mentally female in their orientation and it has nothing to do with their sex drive. I doubt any self respecting gay man would denigrate his male organ as katoeys do.

Most psychology professionals speak of "gender identification", a mental state that is not in consonnance with their sex assignment at birth.

Much has been published on the lack of gender assignment in embryos until later in gestation and how little is involved in assigning sex, one way or the other, with hormones in the womb. If the mind or mental state varies from the hormones that control sex assignment, it is easy to see how men with female mind sets evolve. Likewise for females with male mindsets.

I would submit that people who are proud of their sexual identity and sexually desire their same sex, are indeed gay or lesbian and those not proud of their sexual identity and desire to be identified with the opposite sex because of a mental orientation to the opposite sex have nothing to do with homosexuality and being gay.

Nothwithstanding the foregoing, there are effeminate gays and masculine lesbians, however, these people remain proud of their own sexual identity.

[Ijustwannateach]

^a good point, PTE. It has been documented in the case of children with genital birth deformities or ambiguities that after surgery has been performed to assign the nearest *anatomical* sex to the physical material available, gender identity develops in over 90% of cases to the assigned gender rather than the genetic gender, when the two conflict.

In my own experience and that of most gays I know, a ladyboy is not really a "gay man" but rather a differently gendered person who wants to have a relationship with *straight* men or very straight-acting gays.

In the theatre one day I was sitting with a date, who was a very fem. gay Thai man. In front of us were two high school students, a girl and someone who seemed a bit indeterminate, from my point of view. I asked my friend, "is that a girl or a boy?" His non-pejorative response: "He is a sissy."

"Steven"

[thankuverybig]

do you think that psychologically for people to become lady boys,they must be confused.

that maybe they feel empty inside,& by changing there persona & outward appearance,they will be fullfilled?

i hear quite a few lady men commit suicide after the op,because they dont feel any different than before.

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't think most ladyboy's I've seen seem that confused- most of them seem pretty sure about how they want to be.

Though I'd have to say that many of them must have some pretty insurmountable dissatisfactions with their bodies, as the current fashion-bodies are difficult even for genetic women to achieve. I think it's too bad most of them feel they have to be Britney Spears, etc., rather than whatever pretty ladyboy they have the potential to be.

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

I would think that most, if not all, guys who want to become girls must have some kind of psychological problem. Isn't that why they need to see a psychiatrist before the op?

I'm not saying they are nuts because they want to change bodies or this is negative but one can only imagine what it must be like wishing your body was different. There's one thing being overweight and getting depressed about it but not wanting your penis

[dukkha]

An oder and wiser gay man once told me..We are all polymorphous and I tend to agree with him... Dukkha

[thankuverybig]

why do you think there are so many lady men in thailand,compared to the rest of the world?

im curious.

maybe its to do with upbringing & thailands history of concubines.

[BambinA]

why do you think there are so many lady men in thailand,compared to the rest of the world?

IMHO ,In TH we always compromise... it's rare to find dangerous homophobia ..so no trangirls /gays are hit by some suck guys

due to buddhist religion , Tgirl ,gay ,and lesbo are not a sin .. never broken any rule.

that's why you can see many Tgirl in TH coz they are independent .

it obviously you can find plenty Tgirl in abroad ..but they are being stealth mode .. they cant do what they want coz homophobia ,religion ,attitude and etc

people can't choose what they are, but they can choose what they do.

why you just dont give some people a chance??

[Ijustwannateach]

You go, girl.

I find it a little disturbing to read all this "ladyboys are confused, crazy" stuff here on a *gay* forum. People used to say the same kind of thing about gays (and sometimes still do).

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

I, for one, am not saying they are crazy, far from it, but they must have some psychological problems trying to deal with life as a man when they want to be girls. Of course, most of us have problems of varying degrees but wanting to cut off part of what's been with you since you were born cannot be a straight forward decision. I, personally, have known 2 transexuals for over 15 years. Both western and incredibly beautiful. One actually modeled for Karl Largerfeld pre op, as a girl, and he didn't know. But both girls were a few sandwiches short of a picnic. They did some very crazy things. They were obsessed with their beauty and look more so than any girl I knew. To me they were still searching for an identity and they couldnt accept who they were. They were trying to be something rather than just being

I think most find it difficult to be convincing as women and are constantly looking for perfection instead of excepting what/who they are. This must cause some kind of psychological problem. I am sure there are some transexuals who are very happy with their lives but I think they are very few and far between.

I think Buddism has allowed many to live the life they feel is right for them because Thais are far more accepting. Buddhism allows this mindset.

Imagine what the reaction would be in a Christian household if you announced, as a guy, that you want to become a woman. For most, I would think, suicide would seem to be the only way out.

The conditioning of our parents, when we are young, normally shows how we will act when we are older. To me there is no doubt a boy with a Buddhist upbringing is more likely to be accepted as a girl than one from any other religion, which may explain why there are alot of ladyboys here.

[jdinasia]

Actually to qualify for gender re-assignment surgery ... they MUST have the issues talked about ... the issues must be helped by living as the other gender for at least a year and have been present for much longer (usually since a VERY young age even if repressed). There is a particular diagnosis that must be present (gender dysforia I think) so .....

[thankuverybig]

yes,im kinda with dumpster.

im in no way looking down on lady men,im just curious about them.

i think everybody is a lttle crazy or messed up in some way,thats what you have to come to terms with or try to deal with.

its just i dont think a lady man changes or wants to change his sexuality for sexual reasons.

i dont think a man wants to cut his todger off for sexual reasons.i think it goes a lttle deeper than that.(or not so deep if youve had the op)

im not gay so maybe you can enlighten me.

[backflip]

"im in no way looking down on lady men,im just curious about them."

Then why don't you talk to a ladyboy, rather than speculating what they are about?

"its just i dont think a lady man changes or wants to change his sexuality for sexual reasons."

It's for psychological reasons.

"(I) dont think a man wants to cut his todger off for sexual reasons.i think it goes a lttle deeper than that."

The first 3 words about sums it up.

"(or not so deep if youve had the op)"

Oh, I bet the guys back home think you are a real hoot.

"im not gay so maybe you can enlighten me."

Sorry, that's a waste of time. I'd rather teach a pig to sing.

[thankuverybig]

oooooooooooh

i never expected a hissy fit.

first hand experience of the subject,maybe?

[britmaveric]

Well from my understanding transexuals were born like this - always knew they were a woman or man and unfortunately were the opposite sex. I see this as the same as gay, instead of suffering they become who they are. I don't really see a problem with this, everyone should follow their own path, not perceptions of others. Happily from what I see Thailand is very tolerant of transexuals and gays - this is an example the world should follow.

[thaibebop]

This may seem like a lame add on here, but I think the best thing to do, ladyboy or otherwise, is to take people as they are, which is hopefully what they want to be. Just accept that and work from there. So, in case of the ladyboys, they are who they say they are. Besides, it's best to know people as the person not their sex, job, hobbies, or whatever.

[DUMPSTER]

I'd rather teach a pig to sing.

self taught then?

You seem a bit sensitive and defensive to transexuals.

thankyouverybig only asked for insights, a reasonable request don't you think?

My experience of transexuals, from the west, is negative. I've spoken, at length, to 2 transexuals and both were decidedly confused 20 somethings. I'm not sure talking to a Thai would be any better and I doubt there are that many that you could actually speak in depth to anyway.

I don't see anything wrong with having a discussion on here. It would be nice to hear some first hand experiences from transexuals but there don't appear to be any members on TV, unless "backflip" just gave us one.

It is their choice to live their lives as they see fit and we should respect that decision. I, for one, think it is no easy path that they walk. They get my utmost respect for living their lives to the truth as they know it.

Though accepting how you were born is another option one could follow. What did guys, who wanted to be women, do 50 odd years ago, when there were no such medical procedures or hormone pills to transform them into women? They had no choice but to accept who they were and what body they were born into, right?

Edited June 9, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[jack_lin]

the difference between a man and a woman has got a lot to do with the genitalia

so !what you mean the definition of men is all human who are with penis, ladyboy has penis too, so ladyboy is male gender?

[Optional-ME]

the difference between a man and a woman has got a lot to do with the genitalia

so !what you mean the definition of men is all human who are with penis, ladyboy has penis too, so ladyboy is male gender?

Of course they are! Almost all human that have penis are male.Except the two bosoms, ladyboy has all the male sexual organs.They must defined as a male gender, no doubt!

[Guest endure]

It would be nice to hear some first hand experiences from transexuals but there don't appear to be any members on TV, unless "backflip" just gave us one.

Bambina is a TS.

[MarkBKK]

Well from my understanding transexuals were born like this - always knew they were a woman or man and unfortunately were the opposite sex. I see this as the same as gay, instead of suffering they become who they are. I don't really see a problem with this, everyone should follow their own path, not perceptions of others. Happily from what I see Thailand is very tolerant of transexuals and gays - this is an example the world should follow.

I'm glad you said Thailand is ''tolerant'' and not ''accepting''. At least ''tolerant'' is better than ''hostile''. I find people in England (OK, the South East, and mainly in London), some parts of Europe and some parts of the US more ''accepting'' of ''transexuals''. That's a much better example for the world to follow.

[jdinasia]

I would say Thailand is very accepting of ladyboys ... kathoey ... TG's etc

Far more so than anywhere else I have been ... but hey ... I do have to admit other than bad drag shows in Europe I haven't been around any CD/TV/TS folks

[thankuverybig]

if people want to believe i have a problem with lady men,or want other people to believe i have a problem with them,thats up to them.

obviously it must take alot of guts to change your gender or personality & i understand that.

thats partly why i am interested in the subject, & what makes them tick.

heres to all the lady men!