Why always "them" and " us"

[Crazy chef 1]

Just to the mods,I know it is not a specific topic what belongs to issaan but I hope to get the most objective/realistic answers here compared to other sub forums.I think many of us are living in a relationship with a Thai girl and are more or less happy.we are able to live under the same roof without any problems.but whenever it comes to interactions with other Thais we start complaining moaning and bashing.is it just a language problem or a cultural problem?I am well aware about the differences ( food,religion,law abiding,education...). But why is it so difficult to get more integrated?in our home countries we are expecting from immigrants the same but here we are not able to follow our expectations towards immigrants in our countries.tips and tricks are much appreciated to become more a part of Thai culture.

[NBD]

At risk of sounding arrogant I think the chasm between the relatively open and mobile on the one hand, and the backwards, face obsessed and literally ignorant culture of much of rural Thailand, especially Isan, is simply too wide to bridge.

In England, as in most of the west, even small towns will have a few people from totally different backgrounds. To sit there shouting foreigner at them or talk straight over them to any white person accompanying them would be considered strange behaviour indeed. Might have happened 100 years ago, pretty well unthinkable now.

Then you have Khun Knowall who drove a taxi in Bangkok or something. He will sit there right in front of you and answer questions from other Thais about Muang Nork which he knows only the tiniest and most irrelevant bits of information, but never ask the farang who is right there.

I love Thailand and Isan especially but I can't possibly integrate with it the way that say an Italian can integrate himself into my town in England.

Hence most of my "Thai" friends are either half foreign or have spent a significant amount of time abroad working or studying. Integration isn't really an issue. Outside of Bangkok and other big cities it can be hard to meet these types, but they do exist.

[Crazy chef 1]

Does that means integration is not possible or just to a certain stage?I think integration is like a marriage: giving and taking,divide your rights and double your duties...isn't it?

[canopus1969]

Does that means integration is not possible or just to a certain stage?I think integration is like a marriage: giving and taking,divide your rights and double your duties...isn't it?

Yes it is BUT it takes 2

[NBD]

Everyone is different. Some people feel integrated when they get invited to local events or learn the language to a certain degree. To me it means being treated as a local without any special expectations because you are foreign. I don't see this as being a possibility in most of rural Isan.

[Crazy chef 1]

But another point in my initial question was how do you guys think/feel to be now on the other side.they the host and we the guest.

[Salapoo]

Maybe ask the locals.

'Because you are farang'. With a bewildered look as if wondering whether you are mentally disabled for not knowing this under your own mental ability.

[rct99q]

It is acceptance, by the Westerner I mean. You need to accept how things are. Why should things like having land in MY name, as an example, get people so upset. I asked a guy from the UK recently if back home if he had his house in his wife's name only, both or just his. He stated, his name, he bought the house it should be in his name only.

Person like this will never integrate.

[isanbirder]

The use of "them" and "us" tells you more about the person speaking than about the difference between Thais and farangs.

[somo]

And what should I try understanding?

The people of Isaan

[NBD]

The "culture of much of rural Isan" is not "the whole population" of Isan.

[NBD]

And what should I try understanding?

The people of Isaan

All 20+ million of them?

[barrybankruad]

I have been coming to and living in Isaan for nearly 25 years. When I first came sometimes it would be weeks / months at a time when I didn't see another farang. I admit that I did miss the company of fellow Europeans at times, but I was on such a terrific learning curve it really didn't matter all that much. During the past few years the number of farangs resident and regular visitors has increased considerably. Quite frankly I am surprised that the vast majority of them bother to remain here considering their attitudes, They constantly are putting the Thai people down, their bad driving, their stupidity, their laziness, their drunkenness, the police, corruption, the moans just go on and on without, it appears, any stopping. Yes I know these bad traits exist, after all this time of course I do, but these people just cannot seem to stop complaining. It's so <deleted> BORING.

I am often accused of being a Thai apologist, perhaps I am, I'm not ashamed of that. There are so many goods things about these people, but I'm quite convinced that the majority of these farangs are so busy focusing upon what they perceive to be the bad things about the Thais and Thailand that they are completely oblivious to the good things that surround them. I'm not wearing rose tinted spectacles, I've been here far to long for that.

[somo]

I agree. I too get fed up with the constant criticism by foreigners. If they don't like it here just go but if they want to stay accept it for what is - a wonderful place to live warts and all.

The constant complaint of "things are not like this back home" (post #2) just typify those that cannot be happy here and do nothing but moan.

[NBD]

There's a world of difference between a realistic acceptance of the fact that I as an Englishman can't integrate into Isan in the same way I could expect to integrate into the US or France, and me constantly complaining about "things not being as they are back home."

I don't expect or desire that sort of integration, otherwise I would br in France or the USA.; or indeed in England. I'm not. I'm here and I'm staying. I just take it for what it is, and not what I wish it would be.

[SlyAnimal]

Some posts have been removed for flaming

Please remember to keep your arguments on topic and directed at the discussion, not at individuals.

There's no reason to get personal.

If you need to refresh yourself on the board rules, please visit:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[puchooay]

As previously stated "it is a two way thing". I have had no problems with intergrating with local people. Only yesterday evening I was sitting in the village shop, having a couple of beers, talking and having a good time. When I say "talking" by the way I do mean in Thai.

I think that is probably half the problem with some people. A reluctance to learn the language of communication.

[gerrythepoet]

I would like to give a personal example of putting one's foot in it.

I married my wife in 2007 and in 2010 her Aunt kept saying in Thai that since you are working away you must have a Gik, I kept saying no then I said "yes, i have" but I did not and that was it. I was ostracised and then the clanger hit. Thais have a tendency to play games but the rules change that's up to them. As a foreigner you need to grasp that all that you see is not clear as black and white the shades of grey mount up and gossip is the number one operator. They love gossiping. The real truth of the matter is that I did not pay sin sod but paid for my wife and her needs. I did support a nephew of hers for a year as he was studying in a music college and his parents were doing all they could in Chiang Rai but needed a little bit extra. No one asked me I just did it off my own bat.

With other things that have happened over in my in laws lives I have not seen my wife for 3 years but in time I am sure understanding the way Thais do things then integration will come back.

So in your case, frustration is the key they are looking for it's called stirring just to have a laugh.

[glegolo]

I would like to give a personal example of putting one's foot in it.

I married my wife in 2007 and in 2010 her Aunt kept saying in Thai that since you are working away you must have a Gik, I kept saying no then I said "yes, i have" but I did not and that was it. I was ostracised and then the clanger hit. Thais have a tendency to play games but the rules change that's up to them. As a foreigner you need to grasp that all that you see is not clear as black and white the shades of grey mount up and gossip is the number one operator. They love gossiping. The real truth of the matter is that I did not pay sin sod but paid for my wife and her needs. I did support a nephew of hers for a year as he was studying in a music college and his parents were doing all they could in Chiang Rai but needed a little bit extra. No one asked me I just did it off my own bat.

With other things that have happened over in my in laws lives I have not seen my wife for 3 years but in time I am sure understanding the way Thais do things then integration will come back.

So in your case, frustration is the key they are looking for it's called stirring just to have a laugh.

You have not seen your wife in three years? Oh my God and you talk about integration?????? Do you even know that you are still married in real life?

Glegolo

[bergen]

I would like to give a personal example of putting one's foot in it.

I married my wife in 2007 and in 2010 her Aunt kept saying in Thai that since you are working away you must have a Gik, I kept saying no then I said "yes, i have" but I did not and that was it. I was ostracised and then the clanger hit. Thais have a tendency to play games but the rules change that's up to them. As a foreigner you need to grasp that all that you see is not clear as black and white the shades of grey mount up and gossip is the number one operator. They love gossiping. The real truth of the matter is that I did not pay sin sod but paid for my wife and her needs. I did support a nephew of hers for a year as he was studying in a music college and his parents were doing all they could in Chiang Rai but needed a little bit extra. No one asked me I just did it off my own bat.

With other things that have happened over in my in laws lives I have not seen my wife for 3 years but in time I am sure understanding the way Thais do things then integration will come back.

So in your case, frustration is the key they are looking for it's called stirring just to have a laugh.

You have not seen your wife in three years? Oh my God and you talk about integration?????? Do you even know that you are still married in real life?

Glegolo

Sounds strange to me as well.............

[swissie]

The "them and us" syndrome is alive and well even in Europe, even if they migrate only from one European country to another European country.

How much more of the "them and us" must there be, if a Farang migrates to S/E Asia.

One can only try to build small bridges. Only small ones. To explain to rural Thai-Folks, that Farangs don't believe in ghosts and a Farang has therefore no reservations of sleeping in a bed, where the foot-end points to the east, that would already be "a bridge too far".

In my own experience, I have found that a statement like "we are the same, but not the same" is a starting point and then build on that. But slowly.

My Thai-Wife of 11 years and I had plenty of occasions to find out "that we are the same, but not the same". Has given us many a laughs over the years.

The "us and them" should not be cause of too much worry for a Farang, especially since studies show, that full integration of migrants take 1 to 2 generations.

Cheers.

[NeverSure]

The "them and us" syndrome is alive and well even in Europe, even if they migrate only from one European country to another European country.

How much more of the "them and us" must there be, if a Farang migrates to S/E Asia.

One can only try to build small bridges. Only small ones. To explain to rural Thai-Folks, that Farangs don't believe in ghosts and a Farang has therefore no reservations of sleeping in a bed, where the foot-end points to the east, that would already be "a bridge too far".

In my own experience, I have found that a statement like "we are the same, but not the same" is a starting point and then build on that. But slowly.

My Thai-Wife of 11 years and I had plenty of occasions to find out "that we are the same, but not the same". Has given us many a laughs over the years.

The "us and them" should not be cause of too much worry for a Farang, especially since studies show, that full integration of migrants take 1 to 2 generations.

Cheers.

Oh, this is good. Really good. Nice post.

I mentioned that I spent all of April in Isaan. I not only wanted to see all of it, but I have a couple of lady friends there. Both are highly educated.

I don't know if I could ever assimilate. I highly respect the Thais and their ways, but they aren't my ways. I can't just drop in out of the sky and be one of them. I would always be the farang and I'd have to live with that.

They were very, very nice to me but we are different. That doesn't mean that we can't be good friends. But they will always be Thai and I will always be farang and I don't see what's so bad about that, given mutual respect.

Again, that was a good post and IMHO nailed it.

[barrybankruad]

Agreed. Even after all these years I sometimes think to myself, 'the more I learn about Thailand, the less I know about it'. I don't think I'd like it any other way really. Always something new.

[winstonc]

im in ubon i see neighbours everyday say hello then im off grass cutting at the temple everyone says hello im very cool with that im a very happy bunny here,,remember though alot of people come here to get away from the mad world they come from and just want to relax and keep themselves to themselves there not being deliberatly rude if they want to be alone,,if they didnt im sure they would be out there mixing it with the best of them,,,were here for our own different reasons,,hope im not too off topic ,,have a happy year expat people and your partners,xxx

[Neeranam]

No chance of integrating if you don't learn the language. They will always think someone who has been here a year or two and has been too lazy to learn Thai a strange outsider.

[rosst]

At risk of sounding arrogant I think the chasm between the relatively open and mobile on the one hand, and the backwards, face obsessed and literally ignorant culture of much of rural Thailand, especially Isan, is simply too wide to bridge.

In England, as in most of the west, even small towns will have a few people from totally different backgrounds. To sit there shouting foreigner at them or talk straight over them to any white person accompanying them would be considered strange behaviour indeed. Might have happened 100 years ago, pretty well unthinkable now.

Then you have Khun Knowall who drove a taxi in Bangkok or something. He will sit there right in front of you and answer questions from other Thais about Muang Nork which he knows only the tiniest and most irrelevant bits of information, but never ask the farang who is right there.

I love Thailand and Isan especially but I can't possibly integrate with it the way that say an Italian can integrate himself into my town in England.

Hence most of my "Thai" friends are either half foreign or have spent a significant amount of time abroad working or studying. Integration isn't really an issue. Outside of Bangkok and other big cities it can be hard to meet these types, but they do exist.

Yes, you ran the risk and you do sound arrogant. Some of your postulations may be valid in a like for like situation, but remember we are guests in their country and perhaps there are aspects of their culture that are different and some better than ours. I am willing to be howled down at the press club but I do not feel that way with my Thai family and friends.

I am so fortunate.

[rosst]

I have been coming to and living in Isaan for nearly 25 years. When I first came sometimes it would be weeks / months at a time when I didn't see another farang. I admit that I did miss the company of fellow Europeans at times, but I was on such a terrific learning curve it really didn't matter all that much. During the past few years the number of farangs resident and regular visitors has increased considerably. Quite frankly I am surprised that the vast majority of them bother to remain here considering their attitudes, They constantly are putting the Thai people down, their bad driving, their stupidity, their laziness, their drunkenness, the police, corruption, the moans just go on and on without, it appears, any stopping. Yes I know these bad traits exist, after all this time of course I do, but these people just cannot seem to stop complaining. It's so <deleted> BORING.

I am often accused of being a Thai apologist, perhaps I am, I'm not ashamed of that. There are so many goods things about these people, but I'm quite convinced that the majority of these farangs are so busy focusing upon what they perceive to be the bad things about the Thais and Thailand that they are completely oblivious to the good things that surround them. I'm not wearing rose tinted spectacles, I've been here far to long for that.

A very elloquent statement that many of us echo.

[Espen]

I would like to give a personal example of putting one's foot in it.

I married my wife in 2007 and in 2010 her Aunt kept saying in Thai that since you are working away you must have a Gik, I kept saying no then I said "yes, i have" but I did not and that was it. I was ostracised and then the clanger hit. Thais have a tendency to play games but the rules change that's up to them. As a foreigner you need to grasp that all that you see is not clear as black and white the shades of grey mount up and gossip is the number one operator. They love gossiping. The real truth of the matter is that I did not pay sin sod but paid for my wife and her needs. I did support a nephew of hers for a year as he was studying in a music college and his parents were doing all they could in Chiang Rai but needed a little bit extra. No one asked me I just did it off my own bat.

With other things that have happened over in my in laws lives I have not seen my wife for 3 years but in time I am sure understanding the way Thais do things then integration will come back.

So in your case, frustration is the key they are looking for it's called stirring just to have a laugh.

You have not seen your wife in three years? Oh my God and you talk about integration?????? Do you even know that you are still married in real life?

Glegolo

Sounds strange to me as well.............

[richard_smith237]

I've never felt the 'them and us' feeling, but do feel some folk; Western or Thai are too intolerant, stupid or simply ignorant to deal with.

I have a number of Thai and Western friends in Thailand... People who are like minded, guys I'd get along well with and become friends with if we were in the same class at uni or in the same company etc...

I'll never be Thai and can never have a truly Thai perspective, I don't expect my Thai friends to have a Western perspective, but I expect an equal level of tolerance of our differences. Mutual and genuine respect calls for this.

So... Them and us? I suspect this is more a social economic and communication issue than simply a 'them and us' race issue.