Is this part of Thai culture?

[Fiddlesticks]

One of the great joys and frustrations of living here is the laissez-faire attitude and the lack of emphasis on rules and control. As foreigners we are offered the freedom to live a life outside the confines of the Thai class structure and beyond the social constraints of our own overbearing cultures. The problem is that pretty much everyone else has the same freedom when they get behind the wheel, to some extent, and that often leads to something resembling anarchy and chaos on the roads. It doesn't work for everyone but it works for me.

I hear what you are saying. Since it is abundantly clear that changing Thai ways is an insurmountable hurdle, that perhaps it requires participating in the chaos within safe limits.

[sotsira]

Two things come to mind when considering driving habits in Thailand.

The lack of driver training, and ease of acquiring a drivers license.

How can you expect good driving etiquette if it was never taught to anyone in the first place!

Lack of road traffic law enforcement due to police bribery and corruption.

If a bad driver is stopped for committing a driving offence,they know that all they need to do is offer a bribe

to be allowed to drive away!

How would these drivers drive if they were heavily fined and had their license endorsed or eventually jailed for repeated offences? Like drink driving or reckless driving where lives are lost.

I think they would drive a whole lot differently.

[IMHO]

This has got nothing to do with Thailand.

Australians are far, far worse than any you'll see here and then there's LA drivers treat it like war. It's all just about every individuals self-importance and stress levels.

[Businessman]

This behaviour is not only in driving but found throughout society. The answer is simple, if you are not clearly above me in the social ladder then you are a nobody and I need not even acknowledge your existence. So in their minds they are not jumping queues they are simply assuming their rightful place in front of the "lesser"s, who are not registering as significant in radar. The social hierarchy is also relevant to "me" and you need only consider those above, those below are not acknowledged. To test see how many Thais say "thank you" when served by a maid or a waiter.

[Ace of Pop]

After a while,its like liveng near a Railtrack or Airport , it becomes the Norm.

[DonaldBattles]

There can be no respect for the law when it is not enforced. The culture and religion contributes to not wanting confrantation. Therefore they are taking advantage of situations.

[Lancelot]

Fidlesticks, I believe this may just be your first venture outside of the Chiang Rai Forum, congratulations.

Try taking a step back and looking at it from a different perspective. If everyone else is driving the way you describe, what possible upside would there be for not driving that way (for a Thai)?

With everyone cutting in front of you, it is going to take you longer than usual to get anywhere and you will look like a schmuck. As one gets shunted to the back of the line by others cutting in as they wish, surely one will be seen as loser and weak, not the other way around.

There are no rewards or upside for polite driving and no punishment for what we may consider bad, selfish driving. There simply isn’t any reason to change and as long as you have had the car properly blessed, nothing will happen anyway. Besides, everyone will get out of your way.

As Sheryl has said so well, driving falls outside the purview of social etiquette. It is a ruleless, every man for himself environment, where normal social mores just don’t get applied. The police are in a difficult position as well when it comes to enforcement as they could get in trouble if they stop the wrong guy.

I think they drive the same way they walk or enter elevators

I have seen many Thais walk in front of other Thais and not offer the slightest apology for cutting the other person off. Ditto for Thais wanting to enter an elevator- before disembarking passengers can exit. The transgressers are not being agressive or looking for a fight, they simply want to go from point A to B and nothing in between even appears on their personal radar screens.

Yes sometimes their behaviour seems selfish to westerners, but I've noticed the same traits in China, The Philippines, Hong Kong...

Just the way it is

Well then let me ask this question, is politeness and/or courtesy toward others (even strangers) a value that is taught and enforced in Thai families and Thai culture. I ask this in all seriousness and not looking for any Thai bashing. Please do not use this thread as a podium to vent. I really want to understand the practices I have seen. If it truly is a lack of parental training then I can understand the actions more readily.

Thai do teach their children manners- the social norms like waiing elders, speaking politely, i.e. "krab" or "ka."

I liked the observations of a few other posters: 1) Untill recently Thais lived in small villages and every one knew every one, so some one walking in front of you was no big deal as in "Uncle Mod" always does that. Better to let things go because if the situation did develop into a problem things could get bloody- or worse.

Another observation was that there was little down side for what Westerners consider rude driving, so why not please your self?

Most Thais would tread lightly though if they knew another driver was of a very high status because they would want to avoid the fall out of pissing the other driver off.

Shame is one motivator but fear of revenge trumps it every time

[keemapoot]

This has got nothing to do with Thailand.

Australians are far, far worse than any you'll see here and then there's LA drivers treat it like war. It's all just about every individuals self-importance and stress levels.

I know you're Thai, and you and I drive a lot in Thailand and elsewhere. I've driven in both Australia and L.A., as well as many other places in the world, and there is definitely something different about the Thai driver desire to trump his neighbor at stoplights, and with cutting in traffic. Actually, I don't care about those racing to get ahead of me at a red light, but I do get annoyed often at cars, and especially big rigs, knowing I'm coming up fast, and going ahead and overtaking or passing another truck, forcing me and everyone in the fast lane to slow down a lot until he lumbers past.

I sense there is something in Thai culture that says if you are not in my direct zone, I can do whatever I like, even if if forces you to hit the brakes, etc.. They also then expect others to do the same, so I'm not saying it's unfair in their view. It's just lack of drivers training and etiquette. I often tell Thais how every American goes to drivers training school for one year at age 15-16 to learn to drive and they are astounded and amused.

I will say that I don't see this behavior as rudely displayed in Bangkok, it's more in the provinces. Perhaps the reason is that people feel more free, or that there are fewer cops, or simply that they never learned to drive properly (which is more likely). I actually think Bangkok drivers are quite good generally.

[Garry]

My onlpy major pet peave I have, is morons blowing through red lights, way after the light has changed red. Yes, I have learnt to wait the Thai way, otherwise I'm dancing with death when on my bike.

[Garry]

This has got nothing to do with Thailand.

Australians are far, far worse than any you'll see here and then there's LA drivers treat it like war. It's all just about every individuals self-importance and stress levels.

Really, take off the rose coloured sun glasses and get back to reality

[dick turpin]

Was stunned the other day when waiting to make a right turn, an oncoming

pick-up actually stopped to let me across. Said to the missus that was the

first time in four years of driving in Thailand that a Thai driver had

given way to me. She laughed out loud, then said did I not see that the

other driver as a farang......enough said.

Edited June 26, 2013 by dick turpin

[Lancelot]

Picture this: you are back in the west, relaxed with your feet proped up- and a Thai tourist/expat jumps up, curses you for pointing your feet at him and disprespecting him, then wants to punch you. Most of us would react to that in a negative way and probably a few western bystanders would rally to your defense and tell the Thai in no uncertain terms to <deleted> off!

Pointing one's feet at another person is no big deal in the West but offensive to most Asians (Arabs, middle easterners too)

Of course poor driving can get some one hurt but the locals don't see it as a big deal and- they are not going to change for us...

Some things are just the way they are and we can either accpet it or hop on the first airplane that gets us back home

[chuenyongman]

I have read the posts on the Thai people's way of being different in their behavior in shopping queue's. Also I cannot understand why they get in the extreme left hand lane in a four lane road ,then turn left in front of all the traffic. The first time I drove my car here in the country I was astounded when a ute (pickup) coming in the opposite direction overtook a line of cars and forced me on to the hard shoulder. No wonder there are so many accidents and the death toll is so high on motor bikes. I do not think that Thai drivers have any professional driving training at all. A few weeks ago a lady who works with my wife bought a new car. My wife, (Thai) took her out to teach her the rudiments of driving a car. This trainee had only driven motor biked previously. When my wife returned home she told me this lady had no clue how to steer, was trying to steer like a motor bike. She now drives every day to work. I blame the government for the lack of driver education.

[chuenyongman]

Fidlesticks, I believe this may just be your first venture outside of the Chiang Rai Forum, congratulations.

Try taking a step back and looking at it from a different perspective. If everyone else is driving the way you describe, what possible upside would there be for not driving that way (for a Thai)?

With everyone cutting in front of you, it is going to take you longer than usual to get anywhere and you will look like a schmuck. As one gets shunted to the back of the line by others cutting in as they wish, surely one will be seen as loser and weak, not the other way around.

There are no rewards or upside for polite driving and no punishment for what we may consider bad, selfish driving. There simply isn’t any reason to change and as long as you have had the car properly blessed, nothing will happen anyway. Besides, everyone will get out of your way.

As Sheryl has said so well, driving falls outside the purview of social etiquette. It is a ruleless, every man for himself environment, where normal social mores just don’t get applied. The police are in a difficult position as well when it comes to enforcement as they could get in trouble if they stop the wrong guy.

I think they drive the same way they walk or enter elevators

I have seen many Thais walk in front of other Thais and not offer the slightest apology for cutting the other person off. Ditto for Thais wanting to enter an elevator- before disembarking passengers can exit. The transgressers are not being agressive or looking for a fight, they simply want to go from point A to B and nothing in between even appears on their personal radar screens.

Yes sometimes their behaviour seems selfish to westerners, but I've noticed the same traits in China, The Philippines, Hong Kong...

Just the way it is

Well then let me ask this question, is politeness and/or courtesy toward others (even strangers) a value that is taught and enforced in Thai families and Thai culture. I ask this in all seriousness and not looking for any Thai bashing. Please do not use this thread as a podium to vent. I really want to understand the practices I have seen. If it truly is a lack of parental training then I can understand the actions more readily.

Thai do teach their children manners- the social norms like waiing elders, speaking politely, i.e. "krab" or "ka."

I liked the observations of a few other posters: 1) Untill recently Thais lived in small villages and every one knew every one, so some one walking in front of you was no big deal as in "Uncle Mod" always does that. Better to let things go because if the situation did develop into a problem things could get bloody- or worse.

Another observation was that there was little down side for what Westerners consider rude driving, so why not please your self?

Most Thais would tread lightly though if they knew another driver was of a very high status because they would want to avoid the fall out of pissing the other driver off.

Shame is one motivator but fear of revenge trumps it every time

In Suriraj hospital ( Where the king is a patient); in the elevators,which are large, when all the people rush to get on,it must be electronically controlled, as the elevator will not move and a voice informs people to get off as it is overloaded. Some people are reluctant to alight but have to before the elevator will move to the next floor.

[NBD]

My biggest gripe is blocking junctions. I turn right out of my office, and there's a traffic light about 100 yards up the road to the left. More often than not someone will be parked across the entrance to the office (which is a soi, not just a building entrance) blocking the way. This I can only put down to a total failure to consider the impact of your actions on others.

[pokerspiv]

Picture this: you are back in the west, relaxed with your feet proped up- and a Thai tourist/expat jumps up, curses you for pointing your feet at him and disprespecting him, then wants to punch you. Most of us would react to that in a negative way and probably a few western bystanders would rally to your defense and tell the Thai in no uncertain terms to <deleted> off!

Pointing one's feet at another person is no big deal in the West but offensive to most Asians (Arabs, middle easterners too)

Of course poor driving can get some one hurt but the locals don't see it as a big deal and- they are not going to change for us...

Some things are just the way they are and we can either accpet it or hop on the first airplane that gets us back home

The difference between pointing feet and driving dangerously is that 1 thing is a ridiculous custom with no practical reason for its existence, and the other kills people on an extremely regular basis in Thailand.

A really ridiculous analogy.

[mogandave]

What bothers me the most is that while everyone seems to be in a hurry to get in front, why is it that after waiting in line at a right-turn light for 20 minutes, why does everyone want to creep out as slowly as possible? Why are we not able to hurry that up?

Oh, and how can people drive in Bangkok and no know how to make a U-turn?

As others have said, anonymity and lack of consequences. Everyone is a bad-ass in the car with the windows up behind a keyboard for that matter.

At least they (we) are not honking the dang horn all day, go to India.

I grew up and LA, and get back there 3-4 times a year and driving there is nothing like Bangkok, although it is much worse now courtesy-wise than it was 20 years ago

[mancub]

Quite simply , the much vaunted ,but nowadays seldom practised, concept of Kreng-Jai - Consideration for Others just doesn't exist when applied to driving. This .in itself .perhaps being a manifestation of the rapid social/materialistic development of the country .

The general lack of fore-sight or taking responsibility for consequences of actions can equally be applied to the roads. After many years of driving here , this is the only explanation I can offer for why indicators are rarely used , rear lights are rarely replaced , and pulling out blindly into traffic is the norm . There is no explanation for why extremely dangerous overtaking manoeuvres are routinely performed only for the vehicle to then stop or turn left a few metres on .

It still baffles me that people that can sit patiently for hours watching the rice grow find it impossible to wait a few moments at a road junction or behind a slower vehicle ,until it is actually safe to pull out.

[transam]

Virtually ever thing one does in LOS where a queue exists, whether on foot at Tesco's, or on two or four wheels, the mentality of folk is to get in front at what ever cost, period. I am glad that Banks and many post offices introduced the ticket system to curtail the practice. Unfortunately the roads can only be controlled by traffic police which alas is non existent.