Is this part of Thai culture?

[Fiddlesticks]

I really do not like nor wish to engage in negative posts about our host country so, please try to keep the responses to this post from becoming a negative thread. That said, here is my question for those TV'ers who either have Thai spouses or who are truly knowledgeable about things Thai . . .

My question is, why do so many Thai drivers feel the need to be first when driving? By this, why do they feel empowered to go to the front of a line of drivers who have been patiently waiting to make a turn? Why must they pass in 'no passing' zones? Why must they cut in front of other drivers as they travel down the road?

Now I know, there are people like this in every country. True! But why does it appear that the number of occurrences in Thailand are far more than I have experienced in any of the 30 or 40 countries I have traveled in? Is it culture? Is it lack of courtesy or lack of manners? I really want to try to understand the thinking behind this practice since it appears so frequently. I really do not believe it is because they have received very little driver training. This goes beyond training. It appears to be more akin to entitlement than training.

Please help me to understand this since it is very difficult for me to simply accept this practice without at least having some basis for understanding the underlying thought practice.

[Gsxrnz]

There are quite a few posts about "Thai" driving styles here on TV and I suggest you peruse them as many of your questions have been responded to in those threads.

You can expect some lively debate in this thread you have started as it's a prime piece of meat as far as TVers are concerned and opinions are very polarised. Good luck with that

My opinion is that it is what it is. Learn to adapt to the local style of driving and you will be a happier, healthier, and safer motorist. Look at some (not ALL) of the practices you have mentioned and analyse them critically. Do some of the actions ease traffic flow, is it logical to use 3 lanes for turning right when only one lane is designated? You may draw different conclusions, but if you KNOW what to expect you can adapt accordingly and be safer.

I'm not excusing the odd lunatic (be they Thai or Falang), but don't dismiss all of the practices you see as being "dangerous", just because they don't conform to our western standards.

Cheers

[DonaldBattles]

It is because they are in a hurry to go nowhere and do nothing when they get there. The answer is the same as why they double and tripple park at Central Plaza. Many of them double park and lock their doors. When you want to get out many times the security has to bring a floor jack to move the car. They always leave it in gear. I guess this is a part of thai culture that I could do without. When you get blocked in it makes you want to kick ass but don't dare you can't fight a mob.

[Fiddlesticks]

There are quite a few posts about "Thai" driving styles here on TV and I suggest you peruse them as many of your questions have been responded to in those threads.

You can expect some lively debate in this thread you have started as it's a prime piece of meat as far as TVers are concerned and opinions are very polarised. Good luck with that

My opinion is that it is what it is. Learn to adapt to the local style of driving and you will be a happier, healthier, and safer motorist. Look at some (not ALL) of the practices you have mentioned and analyse them critically. Do some of the actions ease traffic flow, is it logical to use 3 lanes for turning right when only one lane is designated? You may draw different conclusions, but if you KNOW what to expect you can adapt accordingly and be safer.

I'm not excusing the odd lunatic (be they Thai or Falang), but don't dismiss all of the practices you see as being "dangerous", just because they don't conform to our western standards.

Cheers

Don, thanks for your response. I am NOT trying to start a polarizing thread by any means ! ! ! I tried to make that clear. I was just wondering if there is a cultural basis for this practice. I does seem to be far more prevalent in Thailand than in any of the countries I have been to outside of Asia. I know I have to adapt but it helps if there is an understanding of the basis for this behavior rather than simply saying "it is what it is".

[NBD]

Interesting subject. It is very specific aspect of Thai driving rather than a general rant. My take on it was simply lack of consequences - most Thai drivers are remarkably patient with such behaviour and thev police never punish it - combined with a sort of selfish but also often justified assumption that the cars blocking your way are hovering there for no good reason at all and it is perfectly reasonable to drive around them.

Of course there's also a suspicion that it's just pure selfishness and a refusal to acknowledge the existence of anyone not in your immediate group.

Interested to hear other views

[AnotherOneAmerican]

No history of queuing or waiting your turn in Thailand (that's a western custom).

Person with higher status goes first, and that's never a foreigner.

Edited June 25, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[onthedarkside]

Not sure why this is posted in Chiiang Rai Forum --> moving to General

[Sheryl]

Thai cultural norms developed long before cars were commonplace. Somehow as driving became common they did not translate over into that sphere.

I think one of the factors is that people feel anonymous out on the road, and Thai culture, like many Asian cultures is what is termed shame-based rather than guilt-based i.e. it is a concern for what others will think and loss of face that keeps people from misbehaving. In situations where people are strangers to one another and feel there identifies to be unknown, the gloves come off.

[Fiddlesticks]

Thai cultural norms developed long before cars were commonplace. Somehow as driving became common they did not translate over into that sphere.

I think one of the factors is that people feel anonymous out on the road, and Thai culture, like many Asian cultures is what is termed shame-based rather than guilt-based i.e. it is a concern for what others will think and loss of face that keeps people from misbehaving. In situations where people are strangers to one another and feel there identifies to be unknown, the gloves come off.

Hi Sheryl,

A very good explanation. I think you may have hit on something here. I guess that being able to hide behind tinted windows enforces this anonymity.

[steinpat]

Sheryl is right about strangers - Thais are polite and kind etc for people they know people they can get something from.

And Thais with cars feel rich even if they are not really and this gives them the feeling they can act like rich Thais and not care about other peoples feelings.

Also because cars came after the real Thai culture was developed maybe they think they can act like they think foreigners do when they drive.

Boston and Athens much worse.

[Lancelot]

I think they drive the same way they walk or enter elevators

I have seen many Thais walk in front of other Thais and not offer the slightest apology for cutting the other person off. Ditto for Thais wanting to enter an elevator- before disembarking passengers can exit. The transgressers are not being agressive or looking for a fight, they simply want to go from point A to B and nothing in between even appears on their personal radar screens.

Yes sometimes their behaviour seems selfish to westerners, but I've noticed the same traits in China, The Philippines, Hong Kong...

Just the way it is

[culicine]

No history of queuing or waiting your turn in Thailand (that's a western custom).

Person with higher status goes first, and that's never a foreigner.

No history of queuing or waiting your turn in Thailand (that's a western custom).

Person with higher status goes first, and that's never a foreigner.

A benz will always give way to a truck river though....or risk their face-maker getting pulverised:)

I've never had a huge problem driving in traffic here. Just go with the flow. People push in because they will never get in because people don't always give way. This will often happen in my area when approaching a bridge - cars want to go onto the side street near the bridge and will rush up and push in just before the bridge. I usually follow the car really close to stop anyone pushing in front of me. Really hate impatient people.

I have more gripe in the supermarket when people just dawdle in the aisle with their trolley blocking the entire aisle. Usually I push by their trolley and knock it out of the way. Can't do that in a car though:)

Edited June 25, 2013 by culicine

[Fiddlesticks]

I think they drive the same way they walk or enter elevators

I have seen many Thais walk in front of other Thais and not offer the slightest apology for cutting the other person off. Ditto for Thais wanting to enter an elevator- before disembarking passengers can exit. The transgressers are not being agressive or looking for a fight, they simply want to go from point A to B and nothing in between even appears on their personal radar screens.

Yes sometimes their behaviour seems selfish to westerners, but I've noticed the same traits in China, The Philippines, Hong Kong...

Just the way it is

Well then let me ask this question, is politeness and/or courtesy toward others (even strangers) a value that is taught and enforced in Thai families and Thai culture. I ask this in all seriousness and not looking for any Thai bashing. Please do not use this thread as a podium to vent. I really want to understand the practices I have seen. If it truly is a lack of parental training then I can understand the actions more readily.

[joeaverage]

No history of queuing or waiting your turn in Thailand (that's a western custom).

Person with higher status goes first, and that's never a foreigner.

yawn.

i get to go first plenty

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I think they drive the same way they walk or enter elevators

I have seen many Thais walk in front of other Thais and not offer the slightest apology for cutting the other person off. Ditto for Thais wanting to enter an elevator- before disembarking passengers can exit. The transgressers are not being agressive or looking for a fight, they simply want to go from point A to B and nothing in between even appears on their personal radar screens.

Yes sometimes their behaviour seems selfish to westerners, but I've noticed the same traits in China, The Philippines, Hong Kong...

Just the way it is

Well then let me ask this question, is politeness and/or courtesy toward others (even strangers) a value that is taught and enforced in Thai families and Thai culture. I ask this in all seriousness and not looking for any Thai bashing. Please do not use this thread as a podium to vent. I really want to understand the practices I have seen. If it truly is a lack of parental training then I can understand the actions more readily.

You teach children to respect their superiors.

Inferiors they can treat like dirt.

[DonaldBattles]

What you see is what you get. Everything changes but nothing ever changes. If I could only get my wife to listen when I talk it would be a milestone. The schools here teach talking and playing computer games. They don't teach listening. Did you ever get a yes or no answer without 15 minutes of non related BS. While watching TV when did you ever hear the word no, in Thai it sounds like plough. No is very direct and commits the person who uses it and this is the reason that you never hear the Thais use it.

[Sheryl]

It might help to remember that Thai culture transitioned from one in which most people lived in villages and were dealing with people they'd known all their lives to one in which there is significant interaction with total strangers comparatively recently and much more rapidly than happened in the West. Those of us who have been here several decades can tell you just how great and rapid the change has been. The culture -- right down to referring to everyone as if they were a family member -- developed in rice farming villages and it hasn't caught up yet with the very different challenges of urbanization. In the west we've had big industrialized population centers for over a century and a half. Not so here. So it should no be surprising that we have more developed rules and norms addressing behavior among complete strangers.

[keemapoot]

Thai cultural norms developed long before cars were commonplace. Somehow as driving became common they did not translate over into that sphere.

I think one of the factors is that people feel anonymous out on the road, and Thai culture, like many Asian cultures is what is termed shame-based rather than guilt-based i.e. it is a concern for what others will think and loss of face that keeps people from misbehaving. In situations where people are strangers to one another and feel there identifies to be unknown, the gloves come off.

Your response is probably the most accurate, but I've been puzzling over this question for many years. At first I entertained the thought that maybe all the people racing to get ahead when the light is red, and similar were done by drivers who weren't paying the fuel bill - driving for companies, or reimbursed, so drive like a bat out of hell. Later, I realized trucks full of families do the same thing.

I'm clueless, but your answer is best.

[kurnell]

I think they drive the same way they walk or enter elevators

I have seen many Thais walk in front of other Thais and not offer the slightest apology for cutting the other person off. Ditto for Thais wanting to enter an elevator- before disembarking passengers can exit. The transgressers are not being agressive or looking for a fight, they simply want to go from point A to B and nothing in between even appears on their personal radar screens.

Yes sometimes their behaviour seems selfish to westerners, but I've noticed the same traits in China, The Philippines, Hong Kong...

Just the way it is

Yes Thais pile into elevators as if their ass is on fire. But when the elevators reaches destination they stand there frozen and peer out of the elevator as if they have landed on another planet, before tentatively creeping out. I just don't get that???

[theblether]

They're not trained to drive to a high enough standard, everything else is a knock on from that.

[Fiddlesticks]

It might help to remember that Thai culture transitioned from one in which most people lived in villages and were dealing with people they'd known all their lives to one in which there is significant interaction with total strangers comparatively recently and much more rapidly than happened in the West. Those of us who have been here several decades can tell you just how great and rapid the change has been. The culture -- right down to referring to everyone as if they were a family member -- developed in rice farming villages and it hasn't caught up yet with the very different challenges of urbanization. In the west we've had big industrialized population centers for over a century and a half. Not so here. So it should no be surprising that we have more developed rules and norms addressing behavior among complete strangers.

Sheryl, thanks again for your keen observations. You seem to have a good handle on the culture. Let me ask, (and I know that in small villages, driving practices are a non-issue), does one see this kind of behavior in the villages? I mean the behavior that seems to be 'me first', where it is acceptable to want to jump to the front of the line or have one's own way at the expense of others?

[villagefarang]

Fidlesticks, I believe this may just be your first venture outside of the Chiang Rai Forum, congratulations.

Try taking a step back and looking at it from a different perspective. If everyone else is driving the way you describe, what possible upside would there be for not driving that way (for a Thai)?

With everyone cutting in front of you, it is going to take you longer than usual to get anywhere and you will look like a schmuck. As one gets shunted to the back of the line by others cutting in as they wish, surely one will be seen as loser and weak, not the other way around.

There are no rewards or upside for polite driving and no punishment for what we may consider bad, selfish driving. There simply isn’t any reason to change and as long as you have had the car properly blessed, nothing will happen anyway. Besides, everyone will get out of your way.

As Sheryl has said so well, driving falls outside the purview of social etiquette. It is a ruleless, every man for himself environment, where normal social mores just don’t get applied. The police are in a difficult position as well when it comes to enforcement as they could get in trouble if they stop the wrong guy.

Edited June 25, 2013 by villagefarang

[Fiddlesticks]

Fidlesticks, I believe this may just be your first venture outside of the Chiang Rai Forum, congratulations.

Try taking a step back and looking at it from a different perspective. If everyone else is driving the way you describe, what possible upside would there be for not driving that way?

With everyone cutting in front of you, it is going to take you longer than usual to get anywhere and you will look like a schmuck. As one gets shunted to the back of the line by others cutting in as they wish, surely one will be seen as loser and weak, not the other way around.

There are no rewards or upside for polite driving and no punishment for what we may consider bad, selfish driving. There simply isn’t any reason to change and as long as you have had the car properly blessed, nothing will happen anyway. Beside everyone will get out of your way.

Hey VF,

I was hoping you would offer some insight. I hear what you are saying and your right, maybe 'I' need to change. It's just that it is difficult to abandon good manners and courtesy that have been instilled in me since childhood. Yet, you have a good point. Good manners (driving that is) is not valued or appreciated here and may in fact, be seen as weakness (though I thought humility was a virtue here in Thailand). Since driving this way is not looked upon negatively by the police or by the Thai themselves, perhaps I will simply be happier to simply join them. I must say, I have been surprised that the other Thai drivers who have waited patiently in line do not seem to mind the other drivers simply injecting themselves to the front of the line. Perhaps I will give it a go. If you can't beat them then just join them.

[BoonToong]

I am not bashing Thailand in what I am about to say, nor am I bashing Thai people; just posting my observations without judging it.

I think it is something to do with the way that in my Culture (British/European) we are generally considerate towards what effect our actions might have on other people but I have not observed that in Thailand. This would explain other things that I have observed, like:

• Not holding doors open for others
• Standing in areas where many people are passing (like at the top of an escalator)
• Blocking pavements with cars/motorbikes/food carts

That doesn't mean I think they are doing it out of malice or to make someone else suffer; I just think it in their psyche to be this way (and we have to adapt to it).

[villagefarang]

Hey VF,

I was hoping you would offer some insight. I hear what you are saying and your right, maybe 'I' need to change. It's just that it is difficult to abandon good manners and courtesy that have been instilled in me since childhood. Yet, you have a good point. Good manners (driving that is) is not valued or appreciated here and may in fact, be seen as weakness (though I thought humility was a virtue here in Thailand). Since driving this way is not looked upon negatively by the police or by the Thai themselves, perhaps I will simply be happier to simply join them. I must say, I have been surprised that the other Thai drivers who have waited patiently in line do not seem to mind the other drivers simply injecting themselves to the front of the line. Perhaps I will give it a go. If you can't beat them then just join them.

You could be in for a bit of cognitive dissonance if you start acting in a way which is uncomfortable or unnatural for you. Simply behave in a way which makes you feel good about yourself and don’t worry too much about the actions of others and their judgements. No need to do something you don’t like just to fit in. That is how I deal with it.

[villagefarang]

One of the great joys and frustrations of living here is the laissez-faire attitude and the lack of emphasis on rules and control. As foreigners we are offered the freedom to live a life outside the confines of the Thai class structure and beyond the social constraints of our own overbearing cultures. The problem is that pretty much everyone else has the same freedom when they get behind the wheel, to some extent, and that often leads to something resembling anarchy and chaos on the roads. It doesn't work for everyone but it works for me.

[Sheryl]

It might help to remember that Thai culture transitioned from one in which most people lived in villages and were dealing with people they'd known all their lives to one in which there is significant interaction with total strangers comparatively recently and much more rapidly than happened in the West. Those of us who have been here several decades can tell you just how great and rapid the change has been. The culture -- right down to referring to everyone as if they were a family member -- developed in rice farming villages and it hasn't caught up yet with the very different challenges of urbanization. In the west we've had big industrialized population centers for over a century and a half. Not so here. So it should no be surprising that we have more developed rules and norms addressing behavior among complete strangers.

Sheryl, thanks again for your keen observations. You seem to have a good handle on the culture. Let me ask, (and I know that in small villages, driving practices are a non-issue), does one see this kind of behavior in the villages? I mean the behavior that seems to be 'me first', where it is acceptable to want to jump to the front of the line or have one's own way at the expense of others?

in small villages (and in any situation where people know each other) behavior is totally different and predicated on the hierarchal standing of the people involved i.e. the one of lower status (whether by virtue of age or other reason) will display deference and special consideration towards the "superior" one(s). It works just fine most of the time, like a well-orchestrated ballet. It's when dealings are among strangers that things get badly disordered. They don't have a mutually understood hierarachal relationship, for one thing, so no idea of whom should defer to whom. And the cultural "rules" don't really have a category for dealings with strangers. Didn't need to really for most of Thailand's history.

Even the confused hesitation when leaving elevators may relate to this - in an elevator full of people who don't know, you have no yardstick to tell you who should get out first. We have well-understood rules to govern this in the west, built on practical expedience (and an assumption of equality, which is also not at all a part of Thai culture). Thais don't. Have them get on and off an elevator with only people they know well and it will go much better.

[NBD]

Sheryl

Very interesting point about shame vs guilt and tallies closely with my experience here too.

The point about meeting strangers I find a bit more difficult. Thailand is a continental country with long land borders, and a sort of natural crossroads of SE Asia, with as far as I can tell quite a long history of wars, trade and migration that is comparable to most European countries. I could understand this point applied to Pacific islanders or Eskimos but does it really apply to Thailand?

[BSJ]

When I got here I discovered I drive like a Thai anyway....so I fit right in! But even so, every now and then I see something totally absurd and wonder what the hell is going through the other drivers head to act so stupid.

[KRS1]

OP, is your country of origin as populated as the thai city you are living in now?