A safer way to use an ATM in Thailand?

[up2you2]

I would like to draw everyone's attention to the only "smart chip" embedded ATM card that has been issued by any of the Thai banks to date, to try and address the rampant ATM skimming that is going on, in some of the major tourist/expat resorts.
Bangkok Bank's Be1st Smart Card Visa debit card uses the EMV (Europay, MasterCard and Visa) Chip:

www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/Be1stVisaDebitCard/Be1stSmart/Pages/Default.aspx

Before I go any further I am not affiliated in any way to Bangkok Bank, nor in any way receiving any inducements for promoting this product.
Rather I am one of the very few people who has successfully got a Thai bank to refund stolen ATM funds:

http://www.thaivisa....get-caught-out/

Thailand basically has no legal consumer protection laws for Thai bank card holders. Not if someone clones or steals your Thai bank card. Not if someone at the bank steals money from your account, etc etc.
Thai-based banks basically operate from the principle that the card holder is responsible for any fraud on losses on the card that occur prior to the card holder notifying the bank to freeze the card (which can be kind of troublesome in that the card holder often doesn't KNOW fraud has occurred until AFTER it's happened).
On the other hand, U.S. based banks and those in many other countries have national laws/regulations (unlike Thailand) that protect cardholders against liability for bankcard fraud, assuming there's no indication the card holder was involved or negligent or failed to report in a timely way.
The Thai banks seem to have nowhere nearly as sophisticated fraud detection systems as some of their western counterparts.
But then again, why should they? In a country where the card holder, not the bank, is pretty much held financially responsible for all fraud, it's not really a compelling financial issue for the bank to prevent bankcard fraud. Nor is it a competitive issue, since pretty much all the Thai banks play by the same rules when it comes to bankcard fraud.

Now there are some that will quickly point out the disadvantage of this Smart Card issued by Bangkok Bank, is that you can only use it in their own ATM's.
An inconvenience sure for some, so then it that case why not keep your current card handy as well, and only use it in an emergency, reducing your potential percentage risk dramatically.

Now I put a question mark at the end of this subject post for a very good reason, because I do not have any direct proof that it is in fact a hundred percent safer.
An improvement yes, as the current magnetic strips were invented 50 years ago.
So I would like to hear if there have been instances of ATM fraud, with this new smart card technology here in Thailand.
Further more if someone can confirm that it is impossible to cancel SMS alerts linked to this card from an ATM, and also that it is impossible to change the withdrawal limit at the ATM.

Finally as I have proven it is possible to be reimbursed by a Thai Bank, but why take the risk, as the lengths you have to go to are not for the faint hearted.
To that end, has there been anybody else out there who has been successful, and if so how did you do it?

[thrilled]

I'm A little uneasy about havin A large amount of money in an ATM account in thailand.It's A little shaky.

[moradave]

Which is why I never keep over 200 baht in my ATM Be 1st account for more than an hour. I have a 2nd savings account in which I keep most of my baht. I transfer via Internet Banking the funds for which I am using my card.

If am using the card to get the cash, I transfer the funds just before I leave and get the cash ASAP from the ATM. If I am buying on-line I transfer the funds into my ATM account just before hitting the "Buy" button.

I have been doing this for 5 years with no problem.

This also prevents unauthorized charges to my ATM account by unscrupulus on-line merchants who may have my ATM card number. The charge is denied if over 200 baht.

[koo]

Even the EMV card has a magstripe which can be skimmed. If you want your card to be impossible to copy, you have to destroy the magstripe. A fridge magnet is enough to damage it, but just to be safe, don't let it near the chip. You can test the card afterwards at a normal ATM, if it doesn't recognize it, then you have successfully destroyed the magstripe. After that the card can only be used in EMV terminals (be that an ATM or POS device).

[EmptyMind]

Even the EMV card has a magstripe which can be skimmed. If you want your card to be impossible to copy, you have to destroy the magstripe. A fridge magnet is enough to damage it, but just to be safe, don't let it near the chip. You can test the card afterwards at a normal ATM, if it doesn't recognize it, then you have successfully destroyed the magstripe. After that the card can only be used in EMV terminals (be that an ATM or POS device).

There is no way in hell a fridge magnet will trash a magnetic strip on a card, also magnetism would not affect the chip.

Me thinks YouTube and bar talk has got the better of you.

[up2you2]

Even the EMV card has a magstripe which can be skimmed. If you want your card to be impossible to copy, you have to destroy the magstripe. A fridge magnet is enough to damage it, but just to be safe, don't let it near the chip. You can test the card afterwards at a normal ATM, if it doesn't recognize it, then you have successfully destroyed the magstripe. After that the card can only be used in EMV terminals (be that an ATM or POS device).

There is no way in hell a fridge magnet will trash a magnetic strip on a card, also magnetism would not affect the chip.

Me thinks YouTube and bar talk has got the better of you.

The proof is in the pudding as they say, maybe somebody could carry out these recommendations and let us know if it does in fact work:

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/video-magnets-make-credit-card-mag-stripe-not-work-1457.php

[Pib]

Even the EMV card has a magstripe which can be skimmed. If you want your card to be impossible to copy, you have to destroy the magstripe. A fridge magnet is enough to damage it, but just to be safe, don't let it near the chip. You can test the card afterwards at a normal ATM, if it doesn't recognize it, then you have successfully destroyed the magstripe. After that the card can only be used in EMV terminals (be that an ATM or POS device).

Apparently the Bangkok Bank Be1st "Smart" debit card (the one with the chip & magnetic stripe) is coded to only use the chip portion "when wanting to withdraw funds" from an ATM"...it does not use/work with the magnetic stripe for ATM withdrawals. But the magnetic stripe "can" be used for Point of Sale transactions (i.e., paying for stuff at checkout) since a lot of countries around the world don't use the chip technology yet. Therefore a person must use an ATM capable of reading chips if wanting to withdraw funds.

"Within Thailand" the only Thai banks to upgrade their ATMs to handle chips is Bangkok Bank. So, if you need money, but there was no Bangkok Bank ATM at your location, you would need to go find one even though there may be other Thai bank ATMs (i.e, K-bank, SCM, etc) at your location which work with only magnetic stripe cards like the "standard" Bangkok Bank Be1st card (no chip; just mag stripe) or other Thai bank ATM/Debit cards. Shouldn't be hard to find a Bangkok Bank ATM, but it may cause some inconvenience/delay in getting some quick money if you need to go find a Bangkok Bank ATM. If outside Thailand and needed to withdraw funds from an ATM using the Be1st Smart card you would need to use a Visa EMV-enabled ATM.

See below cut and paste from Bangkok Bank web site for more info

Where can I use my Be1st debit card?

You can use it to make purchases at any store in Thailand and around the world displaying a Visa logo. The card can also be used at any ATM with a VISA or PLUS sign nationwide or abroad. (Be 1st Smart cards can be used at more than 8,000 Bangkok Bank ATMs nationwide or VISA EMV-enabled ATMs overseas.)

.

[kiniyow]

Yea I got the Latest Smart Card Chip from BKK Bank..Went to the Hospital to have a check up done and test run..Got my bill and went to withdraw my funds from the ATM to pay the bin....No BKK bank Atm but 4 other local banks and my new Improved New Chip did not work in a single one of them....

So Much for using other ATMs with this New BKK Bank Chip...

[lopburi3]

Even when there is a Bangkok Bank ATM it is often not working or out of money. Perhaps it is because I normally use there ATM's but in my experience they have a very poor record of keeping funds in there machines anytime near payday. Even those located in bank branch offices are often empty.

[bangkokburning]

Thanks for that information.

I only use atms at my branch, inside a building and preferably inside the bank.

Im going to look into a second account (my wife keeps low balance in atm but so she doesnt spend it ☺)

SCB great at taking my money, not so great support.

[kriswillems]

Even the EMV card has a magstripe which can be skimmed. If you want your card to be impossible to copy, you have to destroy the magstripe. A fridge magnet is enough to damage it, but just to be safe, don't let it near the chip. You can test the card afterwards at a normal ATM, if it doesn't recognize it, then you have successfully destroyed the magstripe. After that the card can only be used in EMV terminals (be that an ATM or POS device).

The magnetics strip on my BKK bank Be-1ste card was damaged and it didn't works in any ATM. I think there are no EMV only ATMs and all Be-1ste ATMs also require the magnetic strip (besides the EMV chip).

[Robby nz]

The MR's just got money returned from K bank that had been taken from her card account.

She had bought something with the card and it seems the shop copied the card and later someone withdrew money from the account.

[Pib]

Yea I got the Latest Smart Card Chip from BKK Bank..Went to the Hospital to have a check up done and test run..Got my bill and went to withdraw my funds from the ATM to pay the bin....No BKK bank Atm but 4 other local banks and my new Improved New Chip did not work in a single one of them....

So Much for using other ATMs with this New BKK Bank Chip...

Your example is why I'm sticking with my standard Bangkok Bank debit card (no chip)...that is, to ensure my card will work in any ATM.

[up2you2]

Yea I got the Latest Smart Card Chip from BKK Bank..Went to the Hospital to have a check up done and test run..Got my bill and went to withdraw my funds from the ATM to pay the bin....No BKK bank Atm but 4 other local banks and my new Improved New Chip did not work in a single one of them....

So Much for using other ATMs with this New BKK Bank Chip...

Your example is why I'm sticking with my standard Bangkok Bank debit card (no chip)...that is, to ensure my card will work in any ATM.

I trust and I hope that your funds will still be in your account, when you go to use your non chip card.

[Pib]

Yea I got the Latest Smart Card Chip from BKK Bank..Went to the Hospital to have a check up done and test run..Got my bill and went to withdraw my funds from the ATM to pay the bin....No BKK bank Atm but 4 other local banks and my new Improved New Chip did not work in a single one of them....

So Much for using other ATMs with this New BKK Bank Chip...

Your example is why I'm sticking with my standard Bangkok Bank debit card (no chip)...that is, to ensure my card will work in any ATM.

I trust and I hope that your funds will still be in your account, when you go to use your non chip card.

The funds have been there for many years with many, many uses of the card...never lost a baht. No, the world will not end if you don't have a card with chip on it....really it won't.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

This also prevents unauthorized charges to my ATM account by unscrupulus on-line merchants who may have my ATM card number. The charge is denied if over 200 baht.

If you have an 'ATM only' card, it only works in ATMs.

[monkey4u]

If you use a Kasicorn ATM you dont need to worry about your card being scanned.

Be more worried about the music being played when you make a withdrawal.

Its letting all around you know you have a pocket full of cash

[up2you2]

If you use a Kasicorn ATM you dont need to worry about your card being scanned.

Be more worried about the music being played when you make a withdrawal.

Its letting all around you know you have a pocket full of cash

Please explain why you feel your Kasikorn Bank ATM is safer?

Dirk Schmidt I feel would beg to differ:

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/640080-phuket-german-expat-loses-bt600k-to-skimmers/

[bangkokstick]

I still wonder why most of the world still use magnetic cards and customer signature when the microchip system with 4 digit code that some EU countries use is a lot safer ?

[ianguygil]

Thanks to the OP for bringing this up.

I have raised this a few times before and have had various loonies criticising us because we have not managed to get the other Thai banks to adopt this international standard. As I have asked before (with no answer) quite how we are supposed to force our competitors to do something is beyond me (the regulators can do this, yes, but one competitor for another? I don't think so, except by providing a superior product to them, which is what we did)

The time is coming when they will have no choice as EMV will be required by the major CC companies, but for now we wanted to offer our customers a highly secure method for using ATM cards which is accepted in the vast majority of developed countries around the world. In fact the USA is one of the very few major markets where they are holding off on this, feeling that their AI engines they run on the back already provide a high level of protection so that their fraud rates are just a few basis points.

I think all should consider the costs of these kinds of efforts before they criticize. We have 8,000 ATMs and growning. A large percentage take EMV, and as we replace them we are constantly growing that percentage. We also had to upgrade the tens of thousands of merchant terminals (POS, cardswipe, whatever you want to call them) as they also take Debit cards which are now the same as ATM cards.

I won't answer all the other posts. Bottom line is there is currently no proven way to clone a Chip card (the chip is set in resin to make it tamper resistant). Cloning a magstripe can be done with any $10 card reader, including SQUARE. If you want to protect yourself from skimming, use one of our Chip cards.

Finally, if your ATM is "always" out of money, please just send me an IM and I will get somebody to look into that. Thanks

Edited July 8, 2013 by ianguygil

[lopburi3]

Finally, if your ATM is "always" out of money, please just send me an IM and I will get somebody to look into that.

Thanks for the insight but if that is in response to my posts I never said one specific ATM was always out of money but I have stated the fact that often the BBL ATM will be out of money when the others are full in the same locations. And that this has happened inside mall bank locations where two out of three have been empty at end of month rush times (Lotus Lat Phao). Often find what must be a low volume ATM at Vejthani Hospital empty or only with 100 or 500 baht notes (almost every month). I do not take that as a total negative but as it being too popular. But to change to a card that will only work in that BBL ATM and finding them so often empty or low (normally take out larger amounts) does not help me decide to change to chips restricted to only an unknown percentage of BBL ATM's.

[ianguygil]

But to change to a card that will only work in that BBL ATM and finding them so often empty or low (normally take out larger amounts) does not help me decide to change to chips restricted to only an unknown percentage of BBL ATM's.

I will try to find out what percentage of our ATMs are Chip compatible and if there is some way for you to lookup which ones these are online. We have them all on Maps now, I am not sure what level of detail we get into in terms of the functionality, but that is a good idea (to have separate icons for Chip and non-Chip ATMs).

I'll look into this and will get back to you. But I will be travelling again internationally this week, so it may be a few days. Thanks

[up2you2]

But to change to a card that will only work in that BBL ATM and finding them so often empty or low (normally take out larger amounts) does not help me decide to change to chips restricted to only an unknown percentage of BBL ATM's.

The analogy I would like to give here is trying to cross the road blind folded.

There is every chance that you could be hit by a car, bus or lorry.

So do you wait until the amount of traffic is less, or fancy your chances in the rush hour.

What is the problem of holding two ATM cards?

Your first choice using the BBL EMV chip card.

The second a magnetic version for emergencies, when you have no other option.

This way you can cross the road safely in the knowledge, that most of the time you know that it is safe to do so, and you won't be hit by a truck.

[JLCrab]

I sometimes sneak a peak at the customer ahead of me at the ATM deposit and other machines just to see if they're working and I often see Thai persons with large balances in their accounts and depositing a large handful of 1000 baht notes. One would think if there is some pervasive problem with the ATM system in Thailand they would be the ones doing the complaining.

[up2you2]

Thanks to the OP for bringing this up.

I have raised this a few times before and have had various loonies criticising us because we have not managed to get the other Thai banks to adopt this international standard. As I have asked before (with no answer) quite how we are supposed to force our competitors to do something is beyond me (the regulators can do this, yes, but one competitor for another? I don't think so, except by providing a superior product to them, which is what we did)

The time is coming when they will have no choice as EMV will be required by the major CC companies, but for now we wanted to offer our customers a highly secure method for using ATM cards which is accepted in the vast majority of developed countries around the world. In fact the USA is one of the very few major markets where they are holding off on this, feeling that their AI engines they run on the back already provide a high level of protection so that their fraud rates are just a few basis points.

I think all should consider the costs of these kinds of efforts before they criticize. We have 8,000 ATMs and growning. A large percentage take EMV, and as we replace them we are constantly growing that percentage. We also had to upgrade the tens of thousands of merchant terminals (POS, cardswipe, whatever you want to call them) as they also take Debit cards which are now the same as ATM cards.

I won't answer all the other posts. Bottom line is there is currently no proven way to clone a Chip card (the chip is set in resin to make it tamper resistant). Cloning a magstripe can be done with any $10 card reader, including SQUARE. If you want to protect yourself from skimming, use one of our Chip cards.

Finally, if your ATM is "always" out of money, please just send me an IM and I will get somebody to look into that. Thanks

Finally, at long last, there is somebody out there.

In all the threads I have read on these ATM thefts and security, you are the first to raise you head above the parapet from within the Thai banking industry itself.

Welcome aboard.

You raise the subject of the costs to provide adequate security for the use of ATMs.

Vis a vis against constructing masses more branches, staffing them with an army of tellers, I think you must agree the costs are insignificant by comparison.

What really is at issue here is profits over security.

Whereby sadly the Thai banks have no incentive to update their security on their ATMs.

The Thai banks are not prepared to spend a small fraction of their profits, providing EMV chip card ATMs that provide dramatically increase security for their customers accounts.

In theory your bank is in a position to clean up against the competition, and as you only know too well customers reluctance to change banks, this is really a once in a lifetime golden opportunity for you.

[richard_smith237]

I'm sure there are common sense approaches to ATM use which reduces your of skimming (i.e. using ATM inside well lit buildings, shopping centres etc and taking note of the condition of the card entry point etc... )...

I would like to have the Chip and Pin option in Thailand. This option has been available in the UK for nearly a decade. Customer / consumer protection is not high on the list of priorities for Banks in Thailand. At least not until the customer starts to care about this.

I had a large amount in my SCB account (which I've had for 15 years or so). When I asked to open a second account and explained that I want one which is card free to keep most of the money in it and another with a small 'user-balance' with a card I was told that I couldn't open a second account without a work permit (I'm now working overseas).

SCB recognised the risk, they even agreed it was a good idea to have a second account. But couldn't help me due to red tape.

Thus: Reading threads on similar subjects before it might be worthwhile roaming a few Bangkok Bank Branches until one accepts to provide me with an account and ATM.

[ianguygil]

Thanks to the OP for bringing this up.

I have raised this a few times before and have had various loonies criticising us because we have not managed to get the other Thai banks to adopt this international standard. As I have asked before (with no answer) quite how we are supposed to force our competitors to do something is beyond me (the regulators can do this, yes, but one competitor for another? I don't think so, except by providing a superior product to them, which is what we did)

The time is coming when they will have no choice as EMV will be required by the major CC companies, but for now we wanted to offer our customers a highly secure method for using ATM cards which is accepted in the vast majority of developed countries around the world. In fact the USA is one of the very few major markets where they are holding off on this, feeling that their AI engines they run on the back already provide a high level of protection so that their fraud rates are just a few basis points.

I think all should consider the costs of these kinds of efforts before they criticize. We have 8,000 ATMs and growning. A large percentage take EMV, and as we replace them we are constantly growing that percentage. We also had to upgrade the tens of thousands of merchant terminals (POS, cardswipe, whatever you want to call them) as they also take Debit cards which are now the same as ATM cards.

I won't answer all the other posts. Bottom line is there is currently no proven way to clone a Chip card (the chip is set in resin to make it tamper resistant). Cloning a magstripe can be done with any $10 card reader, including SQUARE. If you want to protect yourself from skimming, use one of our Chip cards.

Finally, if your ATM is "always" out of money, please just send me an IM and I will get somebody to look into that. Thanks

Finally, at long last, there is somebody out there.

In all the threads I have read on these ATM thefts and security, you are the first to raise you head above the parapet from within the Thai banking industry itself.

Welcome aboard.

You raise the subject of the costs to provide adequate security for the use of ATMs.

Vis a vis against constructing masses more branches, staffing them with an army of tellers, I think you must agree the costs are insignificant by comparison.

What really is at issue here is profits over security.

Whereby sadly the Thai banks have no incentive to update their security on their ATMs.

The Thai banks are not prepared to spend a small fraction of their profits, providing EMV chip card ATMs that provide dramatically increase security for their customers accounts.

In theory your bank is in a position to clean up against the competition, and as you only know too well customers reluctance to change banks, this is really a once in a lifetime golden opportunity for you.

Actually I have posted about this many times before. If needed I can search back and refer you to the posts. I have been aboard for about 4 years now...

As I said, I had one of the "fringe" commentators complaining to me that all the Thai banks had not done this and saying that it was our responsibility to do so. When I asked how we were supposed to force them he did not answer.

I am told by our ATM group that all of our ATMs now support Chip and PIN. So you can use these cards at any Bangkok Bank ATM in Thailand, and those of other banks in other countries. I was very surprised to learn this and I have asked for a confirmation, but I am also not on the Operational side of the Bank so I do not keep up with these things.........I will correct this if there was some miscommunication.

We do advertise this. We do offer to every customer when they apply for an ATM card. Some choose to take them, others insist on the old magstripe so they can use them on any other Bank ATM in Thailand.

Edited July 8, 2013 by ianguygil

[nong38]

There is no way I would want a Thai Bank card, I can imagine if I had a problem trying to explain to someone who just they dont understand ( enough English ) its easier say that and not have problem you have to deal with.

I have used Aeon in mall's but I see some have problems with deductions but no money being dispensed, it may get sorted out in the end but its a lot of hassle.

My first choice is go inside the bank with my passport and UK bank card and request an advance whilst having a cup of tea in the process, no problems, no 150bts fee and no loss of unreturned card.

[lopburi3]

I am told by our ATM group that all of our ATMs now support Chip and PIN.

That is good news and may actually try to convince the wife to make the trip to obtain such a card - but being joint account suspect we will both have to be up to the trip and expect can only do at account holding branch?

As for previous suggestion to have two types of card expect that would not be allowed and if all BBL atm's are available should not be that much of an issue.

[Gsxrnz]

If you use a Kasicorn ATM you dont need to worry about your card being scanned.

Be more worried about the music being played when you make a withdrawal.

Its letting all around you know you have a pocket full of cash

Please explain why you feel your Kasikorn Bank ATM is safer?

Dirk Schmidt I feel would beg to differ:

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/640080-phuket-german-expat-loses-bt600k-to-skimmers/

You missed the sarcasm.

Monkey was saying that getting your card skimmed at a K Bank ATM is less likely to occur than getting robbed by somebody nearby when you make a withdrawal. K Bank ATM's play a very loud tune reminiscent of a Sega Game Machine that can be heard at 30 paces when you make a withdrawal - very annoying!