Latest U.S. drone strike in Pakistan kills 18

[LomSak27]

They armed him, and gave money as they did for any and all fighting the soviets - but that is a little journalistic lingo sidestepping of reality - they gave money - that money ended up with Osama

Who doled out the money?

Who trained them?

and in any way directed him?

The same people who rummey and Dick lifted out of Kunduz - The Pakistani ISI. That is who it was all funneled through. There was no hands on relationship, Pakistans part in the deal was exactly that - you give us money and we do all the rest. They did not want interlopers in what they claimed and still feel is thier zone of influence.

A Number of CIA people warned that this was dangerous - hey guess they were right, but that was all ignored at the time - and if fighters and weapons bought for Afghanistan ended up in Kashmir in the 90's .... that was something no one thought to much about back then.

Edited July 13, 2013 by LomSak27

[mania]

Who doled out the money?

Who trained them?

and in any way directed him?

Don't turn on the lights if you don't want to see.

[ravip]

Is this a fiction movie? Collateral Murder

Who was the Producer, Director, main Actor/Actress?

By the way, is there any particular country which is 'officially authorised' to eliminate terrorists in this world according to their whims & fancy?

[LomSak27]

"Don't turn on the lights if you don't want to see"

That was fast, two posts and the original assertions are dropped and its deflect, distract, lets try a new tack already

One of the great things about conspiracy theories, they paint the world with nice wide brush strokes - Its an easily understandable and explainable entity. And they are all around, you can find one that dovetails to your political predispositions, be it conservative, liberal, marxist, whatever. Great and good, but the world does not work like that.

[mania]

That was fast, two posts and the original assertions are dropped and its deflect, distract, lets try a new tack already

Fast because the truth does not change.

Neither did I change any assertions they remain the same

It is all there for you to see lots of it history & facts.

I only was warning you not too look if you dont want to see.

Your pretty set in your simplistic left vs right views & it may upset you.

I will leave you & it at that

[NeverSure]

Is this a fiction movie? Collateral Murder

Who was the Producer, Director, main Actor/Actress?

By the way, is there any particular country which is 'officially authorised' to eliminate terrorists in this world according to their whims & fancy?

"By the way, is there any particular country which is 'officially authorised' to eliminate terrorists in this world according to their whims & fancy?"

Authorized by whom? Is there a one world leader - a dictator - who gives out or denies such authorizations?

The lesson should be "Do not attack the US on its own soil unless you want to be hunted all over the world forever."

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed. Please stick to the topic.

[jamhar]

Maybe a tactical change in the military PR? If so, its long overdue!

NATO Airstrike Kills 5 Taliban, Officials Say

KABUL, Afghanistan -- Officials say NATO-led coalition forces attacked a group of Taliban fighters in eastern Afghanistan, killing at least five militants.

Coalition spokesman Capt. Luca Carniel said Sunday that NATO forces had carried out a "precision strike" in Paktia province the night before, killing five militants.

He gave no further information, but Paktia provincial police chief Gen. Zelmia Oryakhail says the airstrike targeted a group of Taliban moving down a road in a car and on three motorcycles.

Oryakhail says his reports indicate 12 Taliban were killed, including a sought-after regional leader. He says there were no civilian casualties.

nato-airstrike-kills-taliban-afghanistan

If people throw a fit over the word "drone",

simply stop reporting the type of aircraft used!

Brilliant!

[jamhar]

The latest on this topic.

The site for The Bureau of Investigative Journalism disclosed a confidential document on Tuesday July 22, revealing the extent of the Pakistani government’s awareness of civilian casualties during American drone strikes. The document is said to have originated from the Pakistani government which, until the release of this document, was claiming to be an unwitting victim of these attacks.

Within the document, the attacks are shown to be the result of careful research and precise reference points, coupled with reports by local police and informers.

The drone war has been raging in Pakistan for nearly nine years.

...

...

...

Not only was the Pakistani government of the period in the loop and supportive of the attacks – as a telegram from the American ambassador in Pakistan confirms – but the government was also fully aware of who was being targeted and who was affected.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/24/drone-strikes-pakistani-officials-were-aware-of-civilian-victims/

Edited August 11, 2013 by jamhar

[simple1]

The latest on this topic.

The site for The Bureau of Investigative Journalism disclosed a confidential document on Tuesday July 22, revealing the extent of the Pakistani government’s awareness of civilian casualties during American drone strikes. The document is said to have originated from the Pakistani government which, until the release of this document, was claiming to be an unwitting victim of these attacks.

Within the document, the attacks are shown to be the result of careful research and precise reference points, coupled with reports by local police and informers.

The drone war has been raging in Pakistan for nearly nine years.

...

...

...

Not only was the Pakistani government of the period in the loop and supportive of the attacks – as a telegram from the American ambassador in Pakistan confirms – but the government was also fully aware of who was being targeted and who was affected.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/24/drone-strikes-pakistani-officials-were-aware-of-civilian-victims/

Interesting, but the reports still do not highlight that elements within Pakistani intelligence (ISI) have been identified time after time as the primary managers, supporters and provider of shelter for both the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, so an ongoing double speak campaign by the Pakistani government. Also the reports refers to informers who identify targets for drone attacks that in my mind would be manipulating targetting intelligence for strikes.

In the Euronews article it refers to wildly varying numbers of people killed during drone attacks and the last line is:

"If the source of these new figures is not yet clear, we can presume that the revelations concerning the victims of American drone strikes – civilians among other victims – are only just beginning"

[jamhar]

Thats just talk. The article admitted that the civi causality numbers can be widely varying FROM THE SAME SOURCE depending on who was asking.

The civi causality numbers is a tricky thing to access. Actually ALL after battle assessment is tricky.

[Publicus]

A study conducted by a US military adviser has found that drone strikes in Afghanistan during a year of the protracted conflict caused 10 times more civilian casualties than strikes by manned fighter aircraft.

The new study, referred to in an official US military journal, contradicts claims by US officials that the robotic planes are more precise than their manned counterparts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/02/us-drone-strikes-afghan-civilians

A US senator has claimed more than 4,700 killed by drone strikes since the technology has been deployed across the region. The London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism says the number killed in drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia is between 3,072 and 4,756. The Washington-based New America Foundation says there have been 350 US drone strikes since 2004, most of them during Barack Obama's presidency and the foundation estimates the death toll at between 1,963 and 3,293, with 261 to 305 civilians killed.

Take a pick, who do you prefer to believe?

Take a pick, who do you prefer to believe?

I believe the Taliban

I dont think i ever heard them say, "please stop the F16 bombings!" alt=whistling.gif width=19 height=18>

This is the data for Pakistan from the link I provided

the numbers are inline with the "3000 Pakistani killed" quote from antfish above

Total drone strikes

accumulated data

Drone Strikes

357

Total killed

2021- 3350

Civi

258-307

militants

1567-2713

unknown

196-330

Drone Strikes 2012

48

total killed

222-361

civi

5

militants

194-317

unknown

23-39

From where i sit, the data looks pretty good. At least for argument for UAV's vs Manned flights.

I'm late to this thread and I see varying numbers being presented.

In the spirit of choose the numbers you like, mentioned above, I would add this report by the credible CNN terrorism analysis Peter Bergen who last month got hold of an internal Pakistan report The leaked Pakistani government document helps to clarity some of the facts surrounding this debate.

According to the internal Pakistani report, civilian casualties from drone strikes over the past several years are much lower than has often been claimed in Pakistan, but they are also much higher than the U.S. government has asserted. During the past two years, however, the number of civilian deaths has dropped like the proverbial stone.

The leaked internal report has left complainer Pakistani government officials little to complain about concerning civilian deaths, so they have made a reach to shift their arguments to alleged violations of sovereignty.

As far as these deranged malicious terrorists are concerned, I paraphrase a famous historical quote from the ancient battle of Thermopylae, which is to fill the sky with drones so that they block out the sun. Let the venomous terrorists die in the shade.

New view of drone death toll

By Peter Bergen and Jennifer Rowland

Fri July 26, 2013

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/opinion/bergen-pakistan-drone-debate

The Pakistani government confirmed 10 civilian deaths in CIA drone strikes in 2009, according to the leaked official document obtained this week by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a London-based organization that tracks the strikes.

The civilian casualty rate has declined steadily over the life of the CIA drone program as both technology and intelligence-gathering have improved - one civilian, a ten year old boy, has been confirmed killed so far in 2013, according to reliable media reports, while in 2012, five civilians were confirmed killed, representing 2% of the total deaths.

As the civilian casualty rate has fallen drastically, Pakistani officials who oppose the drone strikes have turned more frequently to the argument that they violate Pakistan's sovereignty, regardless of whom they kill.

[Publicus]

Mania posted

Yet when you read the history you see the US had a long relationship with him

as a useful tool. Same as Saddam & many others later deemed terrorist in need of killing

No they did not have a long relationship with, sorry if your conspiracy theory rings hollow.

it’s important to remember that bin Laden was once a good friend of the U.S. government. In many ways, he can even be considered a creation of American officials and their allies. His Mujahedeen, or Islamic warriors, were even armed, trained, supplied and financed by America and some of its allies. Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, writing in the U.K. Guardian, had some interesting observations. Noting that “throughout the 80s [bin Laden] was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan,” Cook called bin Laden “a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies.” And while not everybody agrees that it was an accidental miscalculation, the fact that he worked with the U.S. government and other Western powers is beyond dispute.

There are many others that easily support history as it occurred

The cliched and banal mind constantly spouts the old canard which is not fact and not the reality of history. Yet the terminally biased and those who have no knowledge of the reality of the Soviet-Afghan conflict on the ground keep on at it, just like the Energizer bunny, prattling year after year, on and on without end that the United States created Osama bin Laden.

The facts show that this is hogwash and the statements of minds that do not know the facts and which can't think past their own selective prejudices. They spout the history they like in contrast to the history that records the facts.

The highly respected and credible CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen makes clear in his books, statements and other presentations that the United States had nothing to do with bin Laden and his "Arabs and other Muslims who came to fight in Afghanistan for broader goals."

The United States did not “create” Osama bin Laden

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2009/05/20090505134735atlahtnevel0.5280725.html#ixzz2bmA4j0HT

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2009/05/20090505134735atlahtnevel0.5280725.html#axzz2bm1id4P3

The United States did not “create” Osama bin Laden or al Qaida.

The United States supported the Afghans fighting for their country’s freedom in the 1980s — as did other countries, including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, Egypt, and the UK — but the United States did not support the “Afghan Arabs,” the Arabs and other Muslims who came to fight in Afghanistan for broader goals.

CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen notes that the “Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding."

Edited August 12, 2013 by Publicus

[simple1]

it’s important to remember that bin Laden was once a good friend of the U.S. government. In many ways, he can even be considered a creation of American officials and their allies. His Mujahedeen, or Islamic warriors, were even armed, trained, supplied and financed by America and some of its allies. Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, writing in the U.K. Guardian, had some interesting observations. Noting that “throughout the 80s [bin Laden] was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan,” Cook called bin Laden “a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies.” And while not everybody agrees that it was an accidental miscalculation, the fact that he worked with the U.S. government and other Western powers is beyond dispute.

Mania posted

Yet when you read the history you see the US had a long relationship with him

as a useful tool. Same as Saddam & many others later deemed terrorist in need of killing

No they did not have a long relationship with, sorry if your conspiracy theory rings hollow.

The cliched and banal mind constantly spouts the old canard which is not fact and not the reality of history. Yet the terminally biased and those who have no knowledge of the reality of the Soviet-Afghan conflict on the ground keep on at it, just like the Energizer bunny, prattling year after year, on and on without end that the United States created Osama bin Laden.

The facts show that this is hogwash and the statements of minds that do not know the facts and which can't think past their own selective prejudices. They spout the history they like in contrast to the history that records the facts.

The highly respected and credible CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen makes clear in his books, statements and other presentations that the United States had nothing to do with bin Laden and his "Arabs and other Muslims who came to fight in Afghanistan for broader goals."

The United States did not “create” Osama bin Laden

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2009/05/20090505134735atlahtnevel0.5280725.html#ixzz2bmA4j0HT

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2009/05/20090505134735atlahtnevel0.5280725.html#axzz2bm1id4P3

The United States did not “create” Osama bin Laden or al Qaida.

The United States supported the Afghans fighting for their country’s freedom in the 1980s — as did other countries, including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, Egypt, and the UK — but the United States did not support the “Afghan Arabs,” the Arabs and other Muslims who came to fight in Afghanistan for broader goals.

CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen notes that the “Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding."

Simply not true, the Arab fighters though in relatively small numbers, were fighting alongside some mujahedeen warlords fighting the Soviets. The US provided weapons and supplies via Pakistani intelligence, the well know ISI, who have deceived the US very effectively for many years even though the US received many warnings from the likes of UK intelligence

[Ulysses G.]

Simply not true

He provided a link from a credible source to support his assertion. Can you?

[Publicus]

simple 1, I'd read previous posts you'd made and I recognize much in the situation and circumstance you discuss concerning Pakistan, the ISI and all the rest of it.

The fact remains however that the U.S. did not create Osama bin Laden or al Qaida..

Neither the U.S. political right nor its left waste their respective time or credibility on that one, which comes mostly from people outside the United States - misinformed and biased Western people in particular who have grabbed it out of thin air yet are certain they're quite onto something.

Frankly speaking, it's nothing more than an anti-U.S. political bent.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Publicus

[simple1]

simple 1, I'd read a previous post you'd made and recognize the situation and circumstance you discuss concerning Pakistan, the ISI and all the rest.

The fact remains however that the U.S. did not create Osama bin Laden or al Qaida..

Agree

[simple1]

He provided a link from a credible source to support his assertion. Can you?

Read Sandy Gall's "War against the Taliban" who interviewed, named and quoted many of the US/NATO senior military commanders, as well as naming and quoting senior Pakistani players. Also the highly respected analysis by Matt Waldman in his report "sun in the sky"

[Publicus]

simple 1, I'd read a previous post you'd made and recognize the situation and circumstance you discuss concerning Pakistan, the ISI and all the rest.

The fact remains however that the U.S. did not create Osama bin Laden or al Qaida..

Agree

I'd thought you and I were in agreement on the point given I'd not seen a statement by you making the claim western Europeans in particular love to make with such wild abandon of the facts and reality, even up to the present.

As you know, it's a fool's claim that dies hard, if it ever dies.

So it's still good to see such a clear and unmistakable statement by you, as you do make above.