Pm Thaksin Resigns

[sriracha john]

Thais vote in crucial by-elections that could reignite crisis

BANGKOK - Thailand held by-elections in 40 districts Sunday, which threatened to throw the nation into a constitutional crisis despite Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's decision to step aside.

The new balloting took place mainly in southern Thailand, a bastion of the opposition, which boycotted the general election on April 2.

The government boosted security in the southernmost provinces, where more than 1,200 people have been killed in two years of unrest, after three people died in attacks during Senate elections on Wednesday.

Sunday's by-elections could determine when, or if, parliament will convene.

Thai law requires all 500 seats to be filled for parliament to meet -- an outcome that seemed a distant possibility.

The leading opposition parties have again refused to contest a single seat in Sunday's polls, leaving candidates from Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party running unopposed in 25 districts.

Most of those candidates failed to meet a 20 percent minimum vote requirement in the first election, and analysts saw little reason for that to change now.

"It looks like at least a handful of constituencies will not be able to pass the 20 percent test," said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, professor of political science at Chulalongkorn University.

"No matter how they turn out, we're heading to a constitutional crisis," he warned. "If they fill those seats, we're going to end up with a one-party parliament."

So far, Thaksin's party has won all but one seat of the 500 seats in the lower house.

But a strong protest vote in Bangkok and southern Thailand highlighted a deep regional split, with the country's northern heartland still strongly backing Thaksin and his populist policies.

Elections for the non-partisan Senate on Wednesday followed that trend, with experts and media reports estimating that half the winners appeared to be allied with Thaksin's party.

That has raised fears among Thaksin's opponents that the charismatic billionaire will remain a formidable force in Thai politics, even if he doesn't hold the top job in government.

Thaksin announced he would step aside on April 4, after weeks of street protests, although he has insisted that he will remain leader of his party and a parliamentarian.

His party plans to ask the Constitutional Court to allow parliament to open and name a prime minister even if all the seats aren't filled.

Thaksin has vowed that the new government will undertake constitutional reforms sought by the opposition, but the protesters have already threatened to return to the streets if the parliament opens with seats still empty.

"We can see the deadlock in the future quite clearly," said Parnthep Pourpongpan, a spokesman for the People's Alliance for Democracy, which spearheaded the protesters.

"I don't think the re-election will solve the problem. The re-election will cause a very big problem," he said of Sunday's polls.

Regardless of the outcome of the by-election, Thitinan warned that the political uncertainty could drag on for months until reforms and new elections take place.

"Anyway you look at it, this parliament is not legitimate," Thitinan said.

"This is a one-party parliament. It cannot be given much authority, because it doesn't have much legitimacy."

- Channel News Asia

[Ricardo]

The man still holds some power - Thaksin himself has been courting him in the past month.

Those were merely private dinners, with an old friend and supporter, according to Thaksin, at the time. And of course you can rely absolutely on his word.

[Plus]

From what I see on Thai TV - in one constituency in Nakhon-Si-Thammarat election officials didn't show up to conduct the poll, apparently because they were not paid for previous work. Boxes arrived, everything is set, but there's no staff.

In some constituencies the voter turn out is as low as 50 people. They should really train local dogs to rubberstamp ballots.

In Trang a voter publicly tore up his ballots, with TV cameras rolling and about a hundred people, all dressed in black, cheering. He was then presented with a flowers. I don't know if he was arrested afterwords.

Coupled with recent developments where EC disqualified two minor parties for accepting bribes, and confirmed Democrats allegation that some EC officials were bribed to tamper with the database, it failed to find any fault with bribe givers - TRT.

It's a sham and a scam, without any semblance of legitimacy. If they go ahead and open an incomplete parliament elected this way, there will be civil war in the South, not civil disobedience.

I believe in this often blindly pro PAD mutual agreement society here it is highly appropriate to spoil the party a bit by looking behind the veneer of their self created image of pro democracy activists. Which they aren't.

But some of them undoubtedly are.

Some of their leaders are as corrupt as Thaksin (only not as smart), the ideology they subscribe to is more than questionable, and contrary to averything that i would call democratic.

You mean Sondhi, mainly, and even then you failed to show what is so undemocratic about him, even after we've been discussing it for over a month. And the PAD, of course, is a lot more than just Sondhi.

They have allied themselves as Thaksin has with people who were benefitting hugely from those events you call "long time past".

Who specifically?

Colpyat, your forays in the past would be more valuable if you could actually produce any results. So far all you can come up with is "it was only a tip of the iceberg" on the corruption issue, and nothing whatsoever on human rights abuses towards Burmese refugees byThai government.

You just find more and more issues to talk about without reaching any conclusion on any of them.

[Jai Dee]

Five women arrested for tearing up ballots in Songkhla

Songkhla - Five women were arrested for destroying ballot papers at two polling stations in Songkhla Muang district Sunday.

Four of them stood in line in front of supporters at a station and tore their ballot papers at the same time.

Another woman tore her ballot at another polling station.

The four were identified as Pranee Weerawong, 63, Jintana Jindewa, 45, Sa-ard Jindewa, 64, Walai Yontprasert, 55.

The other woman was identified as Sumol Tula, 51.

They were released on bail after placing Bt20,000 in cash each as guarantee.

Earlier the day, a university lecturer was arrested in Songkhla's Hat Yai district for destroying ballot and another man in Muang district on the same charges.

_________________________________________________________________

Resort owner in Phuket arrested for tearing up ballot

Phuket - A resort owner in this island province was arrested for tearing up ballot paper in protest against the election.

Krit Thepbamrung was arrested at 9:08 am after destroying ballot paper at a polling station in Muang district.

He was released after placing Bt20,000 in cash as guarantee.

He said he owns a resort and wanted to protest against the Election Commission for allegedly holding unfair election.

He said he changed his mind from casting no vote to tearing up ballot in protest because some small parties had been hired to help Thai Rak Thai's one-horse candidates to win election.

_________________________________________________________________

Businessman in Yala arrested for tearing up ballot

Yala - A businessman in this southern province was arrested for tearing up a ballot paper.

Saringkan Chuwongwut, 66, was arrested at a polling station in Muang district after tearing up the ballot paper at 10:05 am in the second round of election.

He said he wanted to join the Rak Songkhla group in Songkhal to protest against the Election Commission .

He was released on bail after placing cash worth Bt20,000 as guarantee.

Source: The Nation - Breaking News - 12 April 2006

[ando]

Obviously these people protesting who can afford the 20,000 Baht bail are no more representative of the majority of Thais than the less than 0.25% of voters who made up the PAD street protests.

Edited April 23, 2006 by ando

[hammered]

I wonder how the south will take being represented in parliament by representatives from a party they totally despise and who were elected by miniscule voter percentages after avoiding the 20% rule due to candidates suddenly appearing from Samak's old party? This may all be according to the rules that TRT keep saying they stick to, but ethically it is questionable. Also as far as long term stability goes it will certainly cause problems.

I wonder if any of the elected candidates will do the honorable thing and resign for not getting a respectable vote and not really representing the people of their constituency?

Edited April 23, 2006 by hammered

[ando]

I wonder if the people in the south and other places where TRT is not popular will eventually feel let down that they now have no real representation in the democratic process? The democrats and tag along minor parties choose to abandon their constituents by not participating in democracy. The people in these positions need only look to their own failed political candidates to see who let them down and denied them a voice in government.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder how the south will take being represented in parliament by representatives from a party they totally despise and who were elected by miniscule voter percentages after avoiding the 20%

I wonder if any of the elected candidates will do the honorable thing and resign for not getting a respectable vote and not really representing the people of their constituency?

[Ricardo]

Obviously these people protesting who can afford the 20,000 Baht bail are no more representative of the majority of Thais than the less than 0.25% of voters who made up the PAD street protests.

But many might admire them, for having the courage of their convictions, and standing up for democracy. Perhaps others might follow their example in future ?

Sneer , if you like, at the people who went along on the Sondhi (and later PAD) meetings, but please respect their right to do so.

And does having a little money automatically bar you from Thai democracy ? I think not.

[ando]

When less than one quarter of one percent of people try to force their will on the rest of the country through street protests I hardly call that democracy. One mans vote is as good as anothers in a free and democratic society. Those who choose not to vote or not to participate in the democratic process are free to do so. However those who refuse to participate must accept the consequences of their actions.

[sriracha john]

Voting marred by protests, violence

Polls have closed after another round of voting for the Lower House of parliament in 40 constituencies in 17 provinces.

Turnout was low, particularly in the South, where many Thai Rak Thai candidates ran unopposed, most of them without a hope of gaining the 20% of votes necessary to validate their election.

At least 17 people in the South were arrested for ripping up their ballots in protest at the election. Most wore black to protest Thai Rak Thai and its leader and Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, and four of them were women in a single protest at a Songkhla polling station.

All those arrested face up to one year in jail and a fine of 20,000 baht.

Tight security was provided for election officials in Thailand's southernmost provinces - Narathiwat, Pattani, Songkhla and Yala - where attacks on polling booths were anticipated.

No violence was reported during voting hours.

Armed extremists killed one man and clashed with security forces before polls opened. Before polls opened today, attackers on a motorcycle killed one man and wounded a woman near a polling station in Narathiwat province. Last night, insurgents blew up a bus shelter in the province of Yala and clashed with policemen and soldiers. A policeman was shot in the head and is in serious condition.

Election Commission secretary-general Ekkachai Warunprapha said he hoped the turnout would reach 60%.

Another round of voting will be held next Sunday *(a by-election a day keeps the Dr. away?)* ...... ok, ok... it's a week, but that won't rhyme... in an attempt to get a full Lower House of 500 members as required by law, and allow parliament to convene on May 1 - as also required by law.

Ekachai Warunprapa, head of the Election Commission, said seven polling stations in one constituency in Nakhon Si Thammarat failed to open because officials did not show up. They will be re-run tomorrow. Will they have directions to the polling stations by then?... or was it because it was a Sunday and thus considered a "day off"?... or if the no-show was because they were they fearful for their lives, will they not be fearful tomorrow?

Many of those who did vote abstained by ticking the "No Vote" choice available on all ballots.

The strict election law has worried Gen Ekkachai as he has predicted that new by-elections would be held in about 10 constituencies after today's voting and the EC could do nothing except to acknowledge those who won the House seats while it was the duty of the Constitutional Court to consider on opening of the House first and hold another round of by-elections later.

Thai Rak Thai elected MPs will tomorrow ask caretaker Senate speaker Suchon Chaleekrua to seek a Constitutional Court ruling on whether the House of Representatives can convene for its first session on May 1 without a full membership of 500.

The constitution stipulates the House must convene within 30 days of a general election, but also stipulates that all 500 constituency and list MPs must attend. One of those conditions cannot be met.

- BP

[ColPyat]

You mean Sondhi, mainly, and even then you failed to show what is so undemocratic about him, even after we've been discussing it for over a month. And the PAD, of course, is a lot more than just Sondhi.

They have allied themselves as Thaksin has with people who were benefitting hugely from those events you call "long time past".

Who specifically?

Colpyat, your forays in the past would be more valuable if you could actually produce any results. So far all you can come up with is "it was only a tip of the iceberg" on the corruption issue, and nothing whatsoever on human rights abuses towards Burmese refugees byThai government.

You just find more and more issues to talk about without reaching any conclusion on any of them.

Yes, i mean Sondhi. And as allies i mean Sanoh Thienthong, for example. I have not failed to show anything, you fail to accept that Sondhi's inspiration - Pramuan's work "Royal Power" - is a racist revisionist piece of <deleted>. And i am getting tired to post the links where noted academics criticise that work you anyhow don't read.

And if you don't read the reports from Global witness i have provided you with the links, i can't help you either - just don't tell me please that i don't come up with anything other than the Salween log scandal being the tip of the iceberg.

I have pointed you as well to the Khmer Rouge issue, i am sorry that you don't read the plentyful books about it.

I am also sorry that you don't read the Human Rights Watch reports i have provided a link to, which shows rather well that serious human rights violations have happened under the Chuan government, and any other government as well.

Please don't blame me for your ignorance.

Thank you.

[sriracha john]

SECOND POLL

Voters foil TRT again

At least 10 House seats were expected to remain unoccupied as Thai Rak Thai candidates running unopposed in southern constituencies failed to win the minimum 20 per cent of votes required in yesterday's second round of voting, which was marred by displays of civil disobedience.

However, the Election Commission is unlikely to hold a third round of voting to fill the 500 seats in the Lower House, the agency's secretary-general, Ekkachai Warunprapha, said yesterday.

He said if there were a few constituencies where candidates running uncontested failed to win the minimum 20 per cent of support from all eligible voters - and he expected no more than 10 such constituencies - the EC might go ahead with endorsing the available election winners and consider its job done.

He said the agency would let the political parties involved consult the Constitution Court about convening the House of Representatives without all the seats filled.

"The House could convene first and then by-elections could be held later to fill the empty seats," he said.

Is the EC re-writing the Constitution on their own now, are they??

Ekkachai said the EC expected no MPs to be elected in 10 constituencies of seven southern provinces - Nakhon Si Thammarat, Surat Thani, Songkhla, Trang, Chumphon, Pattani and Phang Nga. Thai Rak Thai candidates ran unopposed in those constituencies and were unlikely to win the minimum 20 per cent of constituent votes.

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra yesterday said it would depend on the "rule keepers" whether the House of Representatives would convene, even though not all the seats were filled. He was apparently referring to the election agency. He should consult the Constitution first.

In theory, the Lower House cannot convene to name a new prime minister until all 500 seats are filled. Legal experts have said the election authorities could seek permission from the Constitution Court to have the House opened with some of the seats left empty.

Thai Rak Thai's Sophon Phetsawang, former deputy House speaker, said yesterday he believed the House could convene as long as more than half the seats were filled. He cited a constitutional clause that says half the Lower House forms a quorum for a House meeting.

Thai Rak Thai candidates lost in Phetchaburi and Prachuap Khiri Khan yesterday to candidates from smaller political parties.

Unofficial results last night showed that Pornjanat Srirattananon from the Khonkhoplodnee Party got more than 20,000 votes, compared to about 14,000 for Thai Rak Thai's Rajasak Klaiklueng, in Phetchaburi's Constituency 1.

In Prachuap Khiri Khan, Tossanet Thienthes from the Prachakorn Thai Party won more than 21,000 votes while Thai Rak Thai's Pradit Yamanand got less than 14,000.

In yesterday's polls, apart from several cases of ballot-paper tearing, many voters protested by filling in the "no vote" box.

Election officials at five polling stations in Nakhon Si Thammarat did not show up to work yesterday as local authorities had insufficient money to pay them, a senior local election official said.

oh ok... that answers my previous question about the no-show.... has the Treasury Department come up with some money to pay them by tomorrow?

Thongchai Wannathanapisit, the province's election director, said new voting would be held for those polling stations later this week.

oh ok.. not tomorrow... next week. Guess it took them longer than they figured to come up with some salary for these guys.

By-elections in four districts of Songkhla failed to take place because polling officials refused to work citing safety concerns, EC official Ruengrog Jomsueb said. "We are considering having the by-elections on Monday or Tuesday in these four districts," he said.

Ahhh ok.... another no-show group... this time for fearing for their lives... will things be all cleared up, safety-wise, in the South by Tuesday so that they no longer fear for their lives?? Finally... they've solved the problems with danger in the South. Well done.

Turnout was low in the South yesterday for the second round of voting, with many people saying they had lost interest because there had been too many elections. Three in two weeks IS a bit much.

Voting was held in 40 constituencies in 17 provinces, but the 14 provinces in the South saw a large number of voters shunning the polling stations.

In Narathiwat, some residents said they were bored by the election while others said they were concerned about their safety and feared they might be attacked at ballot stations.

The atmosphere in Pattani was subdued with police and soldiers deployed at polling stations to provide security.

In Satun, the Election Commission expected 60 per cent of eligible voters to cast ballots, but there was little excitement among those who showed up at the polls.

Less than 50 per cent of eligible voters cast ballots in Krabi. Residents of the province said they were tired of elections. The province's election office estimated turnout might be 10 per cent lower than it was for the April 2 election.

Songkhla's election authorities said less than 60 per cent of eligible voters showed up.

Turnout in Phang Nga was also low, with many residents describing the election as boring.

I love Thailand.

- TN

Edited April 23, 2006 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Thais Vote in Parliamentary Elections

Voting took place in 40 constituencies, mostly in Thailand's insurgency-plagued southern provinces, in an attempt to fill seats in the lower house of parliament left vacant in April 2 elections boycotted by the opposition.

The election were an attempt to avert a constitutional breakdown because Thai law stipulates that Parliament cannot convene unless all 500 seats are filled.

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra called the April elections three years ahead of schedule after months of anti-government street protests and demands for his resignation.

Although the opposition boycott resulted in a ruling party sweep, Thaksin surprised the country by announcing two days later that he would leave office to restore unity in the country. Critics, however, believe he remains firmly in control and is planning a comeback.

The 40 seats were left vacant because Thai law requires that unopposed candidates receive the support of at least 20 percent of eligible voters.

Turnout was low during the seven hours of voting. Election Commission member Ekachai Warrunprapa said at least 10 candidates were unlikely to win seats.

Hundreds of black-clad protesters stormed a police station and forced the release of an activist arrested for destroying his ballot.

"The voters in the south are fighting to topple the Thaksin regime. If the Thai Rak Thai party runs alone without opponents they will never ever win, even if they run 100 times in elections," said Dr. Kriangsak Liwcharoenpatana, after tearing up his ballot at a polling station in the southern city of Songkhla.

Hundreds of voters shouted "Thaksin get out," as he tore up the ballot.

Accusing Thaksin of unfairly controlling the election, opponents have called on voters to destroy their ballots or mark the "no vote" option — signaling abstention.

Ahead of Sunday's vote, four chiefs of provincial election commissions in the south and about 700 volunteers quit their jobs in protest against the Election Commission, which they say favors the Thaksin camp.

In one province, election officials in at least nine polling stations left their posts in protest against the commission. The polling stations opened several hours later with volunteer replacements.

The south is a center of opposition to Thaksin, who has been accused of corruption, abuse of power and mishandling an Islamic insurgency that has left at least 1,300 people dead in the last two years.

In Senate elections Wednesday, two police officers and an election volunteer were killed and 22 others were wounded in attacks by militants in the south.

"Thousands of Muslim people have been killed since Thaksin came to power and this is the only time that I can demonstrate my hatred of him," said Walai Yonprasert, a 55-year-old Muslim woman who tore up her ballot along with four other voters.

- Associated Press

===============================================================

EC slammed over 'outrageous' idea

By-elections likely to leave seats empty

The Election Commission stands accused of trying to twist the law by suggesting the new parliament should convene before there are any more by-elections to fill empty seats. The by-elections in some southern constituencies yesterday were beset with problems. Voters lived up to their threats by tearing up ballots or taking them home without voting _ and the EC's staff even walked off the job at some polling units.

EC secretary-general Ekkachai Warunphrapha said if not too many constituencies were left with empty seats, new by-elections might not be held before parliament was opened.

The commission could forward to parliament the list of winning candidates already endorsed and a royal decree could later be issued for needed by-elections.

He admitted voter turnout was low yesterday and in about 10 constituencies the lone candidates were unlikely to win the required 20% of eligible votes.

Thammasat University vice-rector Parinya Thewanarumitkul said the EC must keep organising by-elections until all constituency MPs are elected. Opening the parliament without a quorum would be unconstitutional. The EC had no business deciding the charter should be sidestepped in this case.

The EC ''absolutely'' cannot put a brake on by-elections before a quorum is achieved, he said. Doing so would be a deliberate violation of the law.

''That's out of the question. It's an outrageous legal breach. The EC is duty-bound to arrange elections. Opening parliament is off-limits to it,'' he said.

Varin Thiamcharas, of the People's Network for Elections in Thailand (P-Net), said by-elections would be held in many constituencies following complaints of election violations in many areas. Certain parties had hired some parties to field candidates in the by-elections.

He defended the actions of some voters who tore up their ballot sheets, saying they had the right to vent their disapproval against the EC over the by-elections.

The by-elections saw 18 voters in various constituencies, all in the South, ripping their ballots in protest against the by-elections and caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Seven voters tore up their ballot sheets in Songkhla, five in Phuket, two each in Chumphon and Surat Thani, one each in Yala and Nakhon Si Thammarat.

Other forms of protest also took place at polling booths in several southern constituencies.

In Chumphon province, Sunthorn Rakwong, chairman of the network of People's Alliance for Democracy, said people signed their name to get the ballot paper but refused to use it. He said the low turnout for the April 2 general election was a clear sign that there were no suitable candidates for people to elect.

He accused the EC of being a political tool of Thai Rak Thai.

Manoo Khiewkhram, leading member of the network of the People's Alliance for Democracy in Phuket, said people were fed up with elections and did not want to cast ballots.

In Songkhla, five women vendors, all Muslims, tore up their blank ballot sheets in protest against Mr Thaksin. Sa-ard Jindewa, 66, Jinthana Jindewa, 45, Pranee Veerawong, 63, and Walai Yonprasert, 56, tore their voting papers in constituency 61, while Sumon Tula, 51, tore her ballot in constituency 62. All wore black.

''We don't like Mr Thaksin. We don't want Thaksinocracy and a corrupt prime minister. Why didn't he step down?'' Mrs Jinthana said. She said she and the other vendors had not been paid for their audacious act. All were willing to do it to show the public that they were grassroots people who oppose Mr Thaksin leading the country.

Mrs Pranee said she and the other four vendors had the right to free expression.

''We tore up the ballot paper but we didn't do anything wrong. We are not afraid of being arrested. We don't like Mr Thaksin and don't want to see him return to power,'' she said.

The vendors received applause and flowers from cheering crowds.

The vendors were taken to Songkhla police station to hear the charges against them. They were later bailed by Ekkachai Isornthas, a leading member of the network of the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Two other voters joined the ballot ripping campaign in Songkhla _ Kriangsak Liewchanpattana, of Prince of Songkla University's faculty of medicine, and another male voter.

Dr Kriangsak said his action might attract the wrong kind of publicity but he felt it was incumbent upon him to do so. People could not trust the EC or the Administrative Court.

He was willing to be jailed, fined or have his election rights revoked for five years in exchange for the freedom of expression of 64 million Thais nationwide.

The academic, wearing black, was cheered on by about 30 members of the ''We Love Songkhla'' group. He was later charged by Hat Yai police and used his position to bail himself.

Pol Gen Ekkachai described the ballot tearing protest as having a destabilising effect on the country.

- BP

[lukamar]

Opening the parliament without a quorum would be unconstitutional. The EC had no business deciding the charter should be sidestepped in this case.

The EC ''absolutely'' cannot put a brake on by-elections before a quorum is achieved, he said. Doing so would be a deliberate violation of the law.

The house has to sit before the question of a quorum comes into question. If the house is allowed to convene, it has a full quorum under the existing constitution. The vice-rector has his sections of the constitution confused as he is talking about Section 98.

Section 98.

The House of Representatives consists of five hundred members, one hundred of whom are from the election on a party-list basis under section 99 and four hundred of whom are from the election on a constituency basis under section 102. In the case where the office of a member of the House of Representatives becomes vacant for any reason and an election of a member of the House of Representatives has not been held to fill the vacancy, the House of Representatives shall consist of the existing members of the House.

Section 155.

At a sitting of the House of Representatives or the Senate, the presence of not less than one-half of the total number of the existing members of each House is required to constitute a quorum.

[jdinasia]

I wonder if the people in the south and other places where TRT is not popular will eventually feel let down that they now have no real representation in the democratic process? The democrats and tag along minor parties choose to abandon their constituents by not participating in democracy. The people in these positions need only look to their own failed political candidates to see who let them down and denied them a voice in government.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ando ... scroll back a few months

this has been dealt with already. not worth dealing with you trolling to bring it back through and explain it to you.

[jdinasia]

Geeze ... take a few days off and Captain Outrageous is STILL at it ... but now it is not because he believes any of what he says ... it is to balance the anti-PAD folks

it just keeps getting sillier and sillier ... but I look forward to his next report from the dangerous crisis areas he goes to

[Plus]

I have not failed to show anything, you fail to accept that Sondhi's inspiration - Pramuan's work "Royal Power" - is a racist revisionist piece of <deleted>. And i am getting tired to post the links where noted academics criticise that work you anyhow don't read.

I've never seen your links, and so never read any of their arguments, and you never presented them here, you just keep repeating "racist", "undemocratic", occasionally even "nazist", and on and on and on. No one knows what ticked you off about that book.

And if you don't read the reports from Global witness i have provided you with the links, i can't help you either - just don't tell me please that i don't come up with anything other than the Salween log scandal being the tip of the iceberg.

That link stretches 20 years back, yet looking at the numbers, TRT steal as much in a month. Corruption always been here, everyone knows that, but the scale changed, dramatically, everyone knows that, too. What's your point?

I am also sorry that you don't read the Human Rights Watch reports i have provided a link to, which shows rather well that serious human rights violations have happened under the Chuan government

Yet you ignored latests reports from the same source that show worsening of human rights situation under Thaksin. Why?

You yourself stated recently that Chuan's was the best government here, then proceeded proving that it was no better than Thaksin's. It's a bit confusing, and inconsistent, unless you have a higher agenda:

I believe ... it is highly appropriate to spoil the party a bit...

The technical term for it is "trolling". All the issues you raise are just bait - corruption, deforestation of Burma, Khmer Rouge, Chatichai, his son Kraisak, HR reports, log scandals, "fashist" books - you just want to endlessly engage people in issues that are actually dead on arrival, and often have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm getting tired of playing fetch with you - searching the Net, looking for quotes to confirm rather obvious points, only to find that you have a new stick to throw, day after day.

For all your intellegence and knowledge, you seem to have lost the purpose of posting here. "Spoil a party" for others doesn't cut it.

[sriracha john]

Good to see others finally getting tired of riding the colpyat train to nowhere... I did so around his 50th career post and only rarely and occasionally even bother to respond to his circular and off-topic and ever-changing posts and points of view.

[ColPyat]

The technical term for it is "trolling". All the issues you raise are just bait - corruption, deforestation of Burma, Khmer Rouge, Chatichai, his son Kraisak, HR reports, log scandals, "fashist" books - you just want to endlessly engage people in issues that are actually dead on arrival, and often have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm getting tired of playing fetch with you - searching the Net, looking for quotes to confirm rather obvious points, only to find that you have a new stick to throw, day after day.

For all your intellegence and knowledge, you seem to have lost the purpose of posting here. "Spoil a party" for others doesn't cut it.

I did not know yet that presenting a differing opinion is called "trolling" - i always thought discourse is the essence of democracy. But then, it appears that the PAD and their supporters have redifined democracy - if one does not agree with you he can be neglected and stepped over.

Anyhow, the Global Witness link is from '98, stretches 20 years back. It is not from 20 years ago. And, no, i do not disregard that the human rights situation worsened under Thaksin. I believe i have made that rather clear in the post to the poster who brought the point up.

You may be confused about my statements, but that may be because reality is rather confusing and not some make believe kingdom where the "good" are in endless battle with the "bad". Yes, i do believe that the Chuan governments have been, considering everything, the best governments Thailand had. Nevertheless, i am not blind to the fact that there were serious corruption issues and human rights violations as well. Neither am i blind to the fact that the Chuan government has done nothing whatsoever to adress the serious problems of the rural poor. Which Thaksin has been able to exploit.

And, again, if you did not read the links, than you should go back to the threads where i posted them. I can't help you if you prefer not read my links. And i am getting rather tired of reposting my links, or the keywords under which you should search google.

Basically, as far as i can see this is a web board discussing politics. That means that there will be different opinions presented, backed up by different sources. If you don't want to search the net, or whichever sources there are, then maybe you should not involve yourself in discussions that are beyond your intellectual capabilities.

Flaming, throwing personal insults and accusations of "trolling" does disrupt any informed discussion, and will result in a infantile mutual agreement society. But maybe this is exactly what sriratchajohn, jdinsia, you, and some others intend.

[Plus]

And, again, if you did not read the links, than you should go back to the threads where i posted them. I can't help you if you prefer not read my links. And i am getting rather tired of reposting my links, or the keywords under which you should search google.

I believe I read all the posts in the News Clippings topics I posted in and I've never seen you links. Keywords (names) to search google didn't turn up anything to support you radical views either. Why should it be my job to find support for your point of view anyway? For all I know about the book - your assessment is a way off mark, but you keep on going without presenting any actual arguments, post after post after post.

As for informed discussion and different opinions - I'm all for it, but not for the sake of endless arguing motivated by "spoiling other's party". That is called trolling.

Have you noticed yourself that all your "differing, informed opinions" of late are straight from any five year old Thailand guidebook. That's what is most disappointing on your part - sloppy, boring "trolling".

[jdinasia]

yeppers ... I love the silly contention that the book will lead to facism! wheeeeeeeeeee there's a stretch from someone that says he just posts this to balance people that approve of PAD's actions

[ColPyat]

Have you noticed yourself that all your "differing, informed opinions" of late are straight from any five year old Thailand guidebook. That's what is most disappointing on your part - sloppy, boring "trolling".

If you classify reports from groups such as "Global Witness", or "Human Rights Watch" straight from *any five year old Thailand guidebook* then i wonder about your links. So far though the only links i have seen you having come up with are current newspaper arcticles. Hmmm...

Anyhow, here is a link, reposted again, by noted historian Thongchai Winichakul, who, by the way, has been a Thaksin critic far longer than your PAD buddies:

http://www.midnightuniv.org/midnight2545/document9555.html

There is more out there if you surf the name of the book and its writer.

[tettyan]

Have you noticed yourself that all your "differing, informed opinions" of late are straight from any five year old Thailand guidebook. That's what is most disappointing on your part - sloppy, boring "trolling".

If you classify reports from groups such as "Global Witness", or "Human Rights Watch" straight from *any five year old Thailand guidebook* then i wonder about your links. So far though the only links i have seen you having come up with are current newspaper arcticles. Hmmm...

Anyhow, here is a link, reposted again, by noted historian Thongchai Winichakul, who, by the way, has been a Thaksin critic far longer than your PAD buddies:

http://www.midnightuniv.org/midnight2545/document9555.html

There is more out there if you surf the name of the book and its writer.

I thought ColPyat might find this thread interesting: The World According to Thai Right-Wingers

It's a discussion by our friends over at 2Bangkok.com. It's an interesting place to start as we try to distinguish between the idealogies behind the PAD and Thaksin's supporters.

[ColPyat]

yeppers ... I love the silly contention that the book will lead to facism! wheeeeeeeeeee there's a stretch from someone that says he just posts this to balance people that approve of PAD's actions

What do you want with you pointless snides?

You have sufficiently discredited yourself already with your comments on how you love and admire Chuvit the mafia godfather who was wellknown to have empoyed seriously underaged girls from Burma and Yunnan in his Massage Parlours (yes, i know he was not convicted for the usual reasons), who has hired a few hundred naklaeng to evict illegaly businesses who had legal contracts on the plot of land that now houses the latest park on Sukkhumvit.

If Chuvit represents "democracy", "transparency" and the upkeep of "human rights" in your view, then we know already where you come from.

[ColPyat]

I thought ColPyat might find this thread interesting: The World According to Thai Right-Wingers

It's a discussion by our friends over at 2Bangkok.com. It's an interesting place to start as we try to distinguish between the idealogies behind the PAD and Thaksin's supporters.

Gee, i might be more liked on their board with my opinions.

I do somewhat view the present conflict as a dispute between a rightwing neocon style CEO PM, and ideological rightwingers.

As i could be somewhat classified as a slightly conservative very left wing utterly libertarian , i don't like any of the vocal sides of the present conflict.

[Plus]

So that professor's letter to the Nation is what the all fuss is about?

No wonder you couldn't tell yourself why you so hate the book - the good old professor didn't say much himself.

The book was a hot reading during Auditor General scandal when Senate's controversial candidate didn't recieve royal endorsement and a couple of degrees where returned from the King's office unsigned. Perception was that Thaksin's governement used the King to rubberstamp its half-baked policies - the cornerstone of Sondhi's "Return the power to the King" movement that is now lost somewhere in the shadows of bigger PAD. After HM's birthday speech it was also obvious that the King didn't lose any power to be returned to begin with.

There's no evidence to suggest people took the book as their political manifesto for the new Thai political order, as you constantly drill in this forum.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Plus

[ColPyat]

There's no evidence to suggest people took the book as their political manifesto for the new Thai political order, as you constantly drill in this forum.

Excuse me, but if you are not a noted historian, political scientist or analyst, i will respect the statements of those over yours, which is not backed up by anything other than that you did not see any eveidence. I did see evidence, and this i have backed up by more learned statements.

[Plus]

Such as? If you refer to the article above - nowhere it predicts dire consequences for the country you present on every occasion.

I do respect professor's view, but his letter is not an academic work, for example his comparison of Bush signing decress and The King signing consitutions is just lame.

Bush was put in the office by the law before he got any "signing" power, and by the same law he will be relieved of that power in due time.

His position is absolutely incomparable to that of the King of Thailand, who signed no less than 19 "Supreme Laws" during his reign for politicians to play with. Pramual has got a case here, it can be debated, and it probably should be debated, but the book is out of public eye now, there's only one person running around with doomsday scenarios, and it's not the professor himself.

Why don't you post your views on the latest by-elections, or the mob attacking PAD rally in Udon? Why is digging up illegal logging numbers in Cambodia 30 years ago seem to be more important to you?

While attacking PAD at every turn, you ignore the real violence. You posted something about Democrat's rally in Chiang Mai, I think, but you ignored blockade of the Nation's office, attempted blockade of Manager's office, and the latest Udon incindent.

Why is that PAD's peaceful demonstration appear so dangerous to democracy, yet governement standing by while its supporters go on violent rampage on several occasions seem to be ok by you?

Why do we have to argue if five year old guidebooks might contain the same information as 1999 HR reports instead?

[Ricardo]

When less than one quarter of one percent of people try to force their will on the rest of the country through street protests I hardly call that democracy.

So what do you call the TRT-thugs, attacking a peaceful PAD-meeting, then ? Are you willing to speak out against TRT, and for PAD, in this situation ?

One mans vote is as good as anothers in a free and democratic society.

Agreed absolutely, although I doubt that Thailand currently qualifies, for that description, sadly.

Those who choose not to vote or not to participate in the democratic process are free to do so.

Although it might just cost them B20,000 and a year in jail

However those who refuse to participate must accept the consequences of their actions.

[ColPyat]

Such as? If you refer to the article above - nowhere it predicts dire consequences for the country you present on every occasion.

I do respect professor's view, but his letter is not an academic work, for example his comparison of Bush signing decress and The King signing consitutions is just lame.

Bush was put in the office by the law before he got any "signing" power, and by the same law he will be relieved of that power in due time.

His position is absolutely incomparable to that of the King of Thailand, who signed no less than 19 "Supreme Laws" during his reign for politicians to play with. Pramual has got a case here, it can be debated, and it probably should be debated, but the book is out of public eye now, there's only one person running around with doomsday scenarios, and it's not the professor himself.

Why don't you post your views on the latest by-elections, or the mob attacking PAD rally in Udon? Why is digging up illegal logging numbers in Cambodia 30 years ago seem to be more important to you?

While attacking PAD at every turn, you ignore the real violence. You posted something about Democrat's rally in Chiang Mai, I think, but you ignored blockade of the Nation's office, attempted blockade of Manager's office, and the latest Udon incindent.

Why is that PAD's peaceful demonstration appear so dangerous to democracy, yet governement standing by while its supporters go on violent rampage on several occasions seem to be ok by you?

Why do we have to argue if five year old guidebooks might contain the same information as 1999 HR reports instead?

I am not going to discuss on an open internet board the real, perceived and constitutional position of the King for obvious reasons. Sad that you ignore some of the very racist remarks of 'Royal Power', and their inherent danger on Thai society.

Regarding the PAD rally in Udon, well, it was to be expected. The Bangkok mob ousted their chosen and elected Prime Minister via Demonstrations, they fight back. You will see far more of that sort of thing in the future. Very worrying.

The PAD's demonstrations may have been largely peaceful, nevertheless they have acted against the majority vote. But I guess it is useless to try to explain you what majority means in a democracy as you have already stated several times that for you only what you perceive as the educated majority has a saying.

I will also not try to go any deeper into the foreseeable consequences of a widening rift in the society that will express itself in further violence as well, and that there would have been far more intelligent, safer, and constructive ways to get rid of Thaksin. They only would have taken a bit longer, but would not have carried the dire consequences we are facing now.

Illegal logging and what happened in Thailand regarding Cambodia 30 years ago is very relevant if you want to have a look how embedded corruption and disregard of human rights are in Thailand. This is why i have brought these points up in the first place.

But it seems that your only focus is Thaksin, and getting rid of him no matter what would somehow miracously solve Thailand's vast problems. Getting rid of Thaksin might indeed solve many of Thailand's problems. Nevertheless, it is extremely inportant that this is happening without widening the rifts of Thai society (yes, before you say it - Thaksin has through his populism furthered these rifts himself substantially). The PAD though have caught themselves in the same trap by appealing to perticular sectors of Thai society and therfore have done more harm than good. The consequences will be seen soon.

Therfore the PAD's actions are equally dangerous to Thai society as Thaksin is. They are fully aware of the potential for extreme violence here in Thailand, and do provoce it in order to achieve what they are set out to no matter what.

Fact is that Thaksin's populist policies resulted in a bubble economy. Fact is that because of present political stalemate foreign investors have put their investments on hold, or move to far less xenophobic systhems in the region. Fact is that Thailand's economical collapse is now much closer than it was 5 months ago.

Nice, we may be on the way to get rid of Thaksin.

But at the same time we are sitting of a powderkeg that might go off any time. I don't see anything to gloat about at the moment. Your posts are incredibly shortsighted. Have you ever thought about that the consequences of getting rid of Thaksin might be far worse than having to live with Thaksin a few more years until the present pro Thaksin majority will find out for themselves what a crook he really is?

I don't think so, your only focus is Thaksin, as if Thailand has no problems far worse...

Let me give you an example (even though that will most definately draw the usual snides from the usual suspects). Yesterday i was at the Prapadaeng Songkran. We had there several dozen knife fights with wounded, a few gun battles, more gang fights than is possible to count, rapes en masse. Every year things are getting worse there. We are getting a completely nihilistic, utterly violent underclass in Thailand that is beyond political interference. Any sort of further disturbance of social peace is going to add to the already existing severe social problems. I am aware that Thaksin has done his part of adding to these problems with his populist authoritarian policies.

But the PAD demonstrations might very well bring the volcano to eruption. Most of those people i just described are children of rural migrants, or rural migrants themselves. Exactly that social class was right now shown by the PAD that their votes count less than mainly middle class demonstrations. The long term consequences of those people not trusting in the basic democratic process is more than worrying.

Why do you think the constant appeals of the powers above the political parties begging the sides to burry the hatchet and to start working together? Don't you think these powers are not aware of the dire situation Thai society is steering towards?

There are far more important issues to deal with here in Thailand than a bit of top level corruption.

Edited April 24, 2006 by ColPyat