Boeing 777 plane crash-lands at San Francisco airport

[lomatopo]

I'm not a pilot in any way, shape, or form. I have been reading this topic and find it very interesting.

What I would like to know is IF for some reason the pilots had elected to go around earlier how long would the flight arrival be delayed due to that go around.?

If the pilots did chose a go around, would they have been severely criticized by the airline management later for any delay in arrival caused by their choice to go around?

What problems would a go around by the pilots based on an unsafe landing approach have caused for the airline?

At what point should an experienced pilot realize.....this landing is having problems and getting worse. .... I must abort this landing and go around for another landing attempt IRREGARDLESS of any criticism I will get from airline management for that go around?

In short, from those pilots posting here, at exactly what level and when should this landing approach have been abandoned and a go around started?

Just opinions from experienced pilots please on what you as a pilot would have done in a similar situation.

Jpinx gave you the correct answers. I'll try to add some answers. The go around time/delay would depend on traffic. The plane, unless declaring an emergency due to something like low fuel or mechanical malfunction, would get back into line for landing. It might have to fly some distance away from the airport before it was cleared for approach and landing. If the airport wasn't busy, it would simply make, in layman's terms a circle of the airport and line up again for landing. This is all normal and not a problem considering that the alternative is a possible crash.

The go around would have caused no problems for the airline. It delays the landing a bit and burns some fuel, but the go around is the correct procedure.

The point at which that decision should be made would depend on how bad the situation was. If "everything" was out of whack at 3,000 feet they should go around. By everything I mean they are off the runway center line, too slow, too low, dropping, and generally screwed up, they should go to full power and fly around so they could start over with a fresh approach. If on the other hand things looked normal at 3,000 feet but at 500 feet things were going amiss, that's nearly their last chance to pour the coal to it and go around.

I have never heard of a pilot being criticized for initiating a go around. That is the proper and safe procedure when "things" don't look or feel right. You simply add full power, begin a climb, and radio the tower ("approach") that you are going around. Tower will give you instructions as to where to fly to, what turns to make and what altitude to use, and bring you back for landing when it's your turn.

As a passenger, I've had ~ 100 arrivals at SFO, ~ 25% international (from SYD, HKG, TPE and NRT), and ~ 75 % domestic (SEA, HNL, DEN, ORD and BOS) since 1997. In those 100 arrivals, we had to go around three (3) times, once due to near hurricane conditions - we landed on the second try, a 757, and were pretty much the only plane that landed, definitely my scariest landing, and twice due to "runway incursions", i.e. a plane still on the runway or the crossing runway. All these flights were on UA, and I usually listen to channel 9 - a UA feature that provides tower communications on the audio system for landings and take-offs. These go arounds were declared and begun ~ a mile out. The pilot kept the passengers informed and seemed relaxed.

All three times we got back in to the landing queue pretty quickly and landed no more than 10 minutes later.

Edited July 13, 2013 by lomatopo

[khaosai]

Hi Skippy,

Where do you fly the simulator, Bangkok ?

Flight Experience - Convent Road Silom rd - BKK.

737-800 FBT

First flight full fee, after that 50% discount. About 3400 baht per hour after discount

I like it, just wished I could afford it. Flight Experience Wonder if I can put the time in my log book?

Hi,

It looks like a well set up operation. Might take the wife along next time in Bangkok but not sure she will like my back seat input !

Just had a look on the website. It's a Cat B approved sim and says if you hold an Australian licence you can log certain things.

Regarding the airport authorities having the instrument approach off the air due to work in progress, I personally don't think any blame can be apportioned to them. There is a fantastic RNAV approach available to that runway which gives you accurate lateral and vertical guidance to the decision height. A crew could have made the decision to fly that approach prior to departure.

Some airlines publish a list of different approaches in order of preference. The RNAV approach will be most likely be given the same level of preference as and instrument landing system (ILS).

[negreanu]

Flight Experience

Those franchises are appearing everywhere. Wonder who owns the BKK one.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yikes!!!! The Fox affiliate TV station in San Fran got pranked into broadcasting the wrong names -- and some really racist but in this case unfortunately funny names -- for the pilots from the Asiana crash...

The newscast video speaks for itself. And just in case anyone doesn't believe this was a real (but totally wrong) news report, here below the YouTube video is a link to a news report from the SF CBS affiliate on Fox's screw-up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iTCOUgVYG3o

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/12/bay-area-fox-affiliate-pranked-into-reporting-fake-names-of-sfo-plane-crash-pilots/

Edited July 14, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[skippybangkok]

Crash Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWGlt_M-wiI

Edited July 14, 2013 by Tywais
Fixed the not-embedded issue

[Chicog]

That's not a crash video. THIS is a crash video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Orw3rbj5MI

[Tywais]

This is not a 777 but a 380 on landing on 28R. Gives a very good perspective of the approach to the runway, the PAPI clearly seen on the left and it showing on glide slope, the automated call out of airspeed, etc. Notice at the beginning some confusion with the right seat (co-pilot) which the captain promptly corrects. With all this feedback can't understand how they (Asiana) got so slow and low.

[NeverSure]

This is not a 777 but a 380 on landing on 28R. Gives a very good perspective of the approach to the runway, the PAPI clearly seen on the left and it showing on glide slope, the automated call out of airspeed, etc. Notice at the beginning some confusion with the right seat (co-pilot) which the captain promptly corrects. With all this feedback can't understand how they (Asiana) got so slow and low.

Excellent and that's how it's done. As you said, lots of feedback and constant monitoring. Calling out airspeed, announcing airspeed deliberate change, announcing turning off speed control, lowering gear, stating altitude all the way to the end especially when close to landing - two brains in sync and at work, double checking, doing their jobs.

[khaosai]

Hi,

Nice video and a nice flight deck.

On the B777 you first get a auto call out at 2500 ft based on the radio altimeter. The next auto call out will be at 1000ft based on the barometric altimeter so indicates height above the airfield. The next call will be at 500ft, again a barometric altitude. The next call will be at 200ft based on radio altimeter. You will also get a call when 100ft above the minima you have set for landing and then an actual call when at the minima which will say "minimums". From there as the nose disappears below the threshold you will get more radio altimeter calls of 50, 40, 30, 20 and 10.

The only auto call out that refers to speed is the V1 decision speed call out on take off.

These calls may vary between operators I guess but they are all geared towards awareness. In the older generation aircraft the height calls would typically be made by the pilot monitoring and acknowledged by the pilot flying so the concept is the same here.

In addition to the above some airlines have enhanced ground proximity indications to let you know if you configuration is not correct, your high, your landing too fast or landing too long.

[Mosha]

This is not a 777 but a 380 on landing on 28R. Gives a very good perspective of the approach to the runway, the PAPI clearly seen on the left and it showing on glide slope, the automated call out of airspeed, etc. Notice at the beginning some confusion with the right seat (co-pilot) which the captain promptly corrects. With all this feedback can't understand how they (Asiana) got so slow and low.

.....and a car wash too. LOL

[Tywais]

The only auto call out that refers to speed is the V1 decision speed call out on take off.

My mistake, I mistyped and meant to say auto callout of altitude. Would be very interesting to hear the cockpit recording of the Asiana but seem to remember the NTSB director saying they won't release that, at least not yet.

[lomatopo]

I just landed at NRT on a 777 (EWR-NRT: 12:47 flying time). The air-show displayed a ground speed of 165 MPH at touch-down. The last height reading I remember was 1,692 feet at 4 miles out. No Ch. 9 as this was a CO aircraft/crew, but looking forward to Ch. 9 for NRT-BKK (also a 777). CH. 9 is great coming in to BKK, if only to hear all the other aircraft. That'll finish up my nearly 20,000 miles on B777's this week.

BOS is my home airport and many of the approaches are over-water: 4R/22L, 22R, 33L, 27. Landing on 4R last week (737-800 from IAD) the ceiling was extremely low (fog) and we didn't clear until ~ 2,000 feet from the touch-down point, based on my view of the Black Falcon Drydock on the left.

[JetsetBkk]

I like the comment at 4:41...

.

[Tywais]

I like the comment at 4:41...

Yeah I saw that too and brought a smile to me. 380 and sporty doesn't seem quite right.

[JetsetBkk]

Yeah I saw that too and brought a smile to me. 380 and sporty doesn't seem quite right.

Hope the passengers had their paper bags to hand.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed. The post was correct, however there was no supporting link.

[Chicog]

Oh sorry. I meant to say that a child who was injured in the crash died today, bringing the death toll to three.

[NeverSure]

Oh sorry. I meant to say that a child who was injured in the crash died today, bringing the death toll to three.

Very sad. Condolences to the family.

[Tywais]

Oh sorry. I meant to say that a child who was injured in the crash died today, bringing the death toll to three.

Third Victim in Asiana Crash Identified Liu Yipeng Was One of a Group of Students From a Prestigious School in Eastern China

Ms. Liu, a student at Jiangshan Middle School in eastern China's Zhejiang province who had suffered a severe head injury, died Friday morning despite undergoing multiple surgeries.

<snip>

"I've been following Liu Yipeng's situation the whole time. I thought she could push through and wake up, but in the end news comes that she's succumbed to her injuries," wrote one Weibo user. "My heart has fallen to the bottom of the valley."

Wall Street Journal

R.I.P.

[jamhar]

First article I've seen questioning the skill of Korean pilots flying in manual mode.

Korean Pilots Avoided Manual Flying, Former Trainers Say

bloomberg article - korean-pilots-avoided-manual-flying-former-trainers-say

[JetsetBkk]

First article I've seen questioning the skill of Korean pilots flying in manual mode.

Korean Pilots Avoided Manual Flying, Former Trainers Say

bloomberg article - korean-pilots-avoided-manual-flying-former-trainers-say

From the linked article:

Korean Air has had a "stellar" safety record since its last fatal accident in 1999, Penny Pfaelzer, the company's Phoenix-based spokeswoman, said in an interview...."They've established training that is the gold standard in Asia," she said.

God help us all.

[jamhar]

First article I've seen questioning the skill of Korean pilots flying in manual mode.

Korean Pilots Avoided Manual Flying, Former Trainers Say

bloomberg article - korean-pilots-avoided-manual-flying-former-trainers-say

From the linked article:

Korean Air has had a "stellar" safety record since its last fatal accident in 1999, Penny Pfaelzer, the company's Phoenix-based spokeswoman, said in an interview...."They've established training that is the gold standard in Asia," she said.

God help us all.

That was my first response.

Perhaps KAL have improved the piloting skills of their pilots. hopefully others with more information will clarify. Regardless, i see a greater emphasis on the piloting skill level in Korea for some time.

Thats a good thing IMO.

[MaxYakov]

First article I've seen questioning the skill of Korean pilots flying in manual mode.

Korean Pilots Avoided Manual Flying, Former Trainers Say

bloomberg article - korean-pilots-avoided-manual-flying-former-trainers-say

26-year-old American Airlines Automation Dependency training lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDjkIjuHGE

Edited July 17, 2013 by MaxYakov

[skippybangkok]

26-year-old American Airlines Automation Dependency training lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDjkIjuHGE

Great Lecture

[F430murci]

Lawsuit filed against Boeing alleging mechanical malfunction. Probably just a shake down, but they may have some inside info. Ribbeck law firm knows aviation law pretty well and definitely has people with inside info and aviation experts.

They also know Boeing fight to end if pure pilot error Boeing with resources to make lawsuit extremely costly to sue them so they probably have an angle we don't know about yet.

Edited July 17, 2013 by F430murci

[Tywais]

Lawsuit filed against Boeing alleging mechanical malfunction.

Asiana passengers file lawsuit against Boeing

A group of 83 passengers from the Asiana Airlines flight that crash-landed in San Francisco has filed a lawsuit seeking millions from the aircraft’s manufacturer Boeing, their lawyers said.

While a final determination of what caused the deadly crash of the Boeing 777 is years away,Chicago-based Ribbeck Law said initial reports indicate it could have been caused by a mechanical malfunction of the auto-throttle.

Boeing could also have been at fault for the design of sliding ramps which deployed inside the plane, “further injuring passengers and blocking their exit to safety,” Ribbeck said in a press release.

There were also possibly problems with the seatbelts given that police officers “had to pass knives to crew members inside the burning wreckage” so they could cut passengers free,” Ribbeck said.

The class action lawsuit was filed in Chicago, Boeing’s corporate headquarters.

It will be expanded in coming days to include Asiana and several component part manufacturers “who may be responsible for this disaster,” Ribbeck said.

Rawstory.com

[Tywais]

And on a side note regarding the Asiana lawsuit against the TV station.

Asiana drops lawsuit against TV station

Asiana Airlines says it has decided not to file a lawsuit against a US television station which aired false and offensive names for the pilots involved in the fatal San Francisco plane crash.

The South Korean airline had earlier said it was planning a defamation lawsuit against Fox network affiliate KTVU news Channel 2 in Oakland over its coverage of the crash on July 6.

The TV station identified the pilots of the Asiana Boeing 777 as "Sum Ting Wong," "Wi Tu Lo," "Ho Lee Fuk," and "Bang Ding Ow".

ninemsn.com.au

[Tywais]

Asiana Airlines Drops 'Racist' Names Lawsuit

A TV station will not be sued after making up Korean-sounding names of pilots in an air crash - but passengers are suing Boeing.

<snip>

The airline's decision to abandon plans for legal action came as it emerged a Chicago law firm had taken steps to sue Boeing on behalf of 83 people who were aboard the flight.

They allege that a malfunction of the plane's auto throttle may have caused the crash.

news.sky.com

[Chicog]

Lawsuit filed against Boeing alleging mechanical malfunction.

Asiana passengers file lawsuit against Boeing

A group of 83 passengers from the Asiana Airlines flight that crash-landed in San Francisco has filed a lawsuit seeking millions from the aircrafts manufacturer Boeing, their lawyers said.

While a final determination of what caused the deadly crash of the Boeing 777 is years away,Chicago-based Ribbeck Law said initial reports indicate it could have been caused by a mechanical malfunction of the auto-throttle.

Boeing could also have been at fault for the design of sliding ramps which deployed inside the plane, further injuring passengers and blocking their exit to safety, Ribbeck said in a press release.

There were also possibly problems with the seatbelts given that police officers had to pass knives to crew members inside the burning wreckage so they could cut passengers free, Ribbeck said.

The class action lawsuit was filed in Chicago, Boeings corporate headquarters.

It will be expanded in coming days to include Asiana and several component part manufacturers who may be responsible for this disaster, Ribbeck said.

Rawstory.com

A scattergun lawsuit looking for as many settlements as possible from a firm of ambulance chasers.

Nice.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The issues about the couple of escape slides that somehow deployed inside the plane and about having to cut some passengers out of their seat belts are ones that simply have been widely reported in news accounts and from the NTSB briefings. Nothing "insider" about that.

But thus far, from everything I've seen publicly, there's been zero indication produced thus far even hinting or suggesting that there was any kind of mechanical problem with the auto throttle system. Perhaps pilots who didn't know how to use it or didn't know how to use it well in a looming emergency situation. But that's a different matter.