GentlemanJim Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) I have had a Fagor 150 liter boiler installed for 3 years without any problem at all. I installed it myself with the invaluable aid of a guy with a knowledge of plumbing who used to live in these parts but has now moved on. Recently the boiler keeps tripping the circuit breaker and if I use an extension lead and plug into another socket then after 5 mins or an hour the circuit breaker in the extension lead will trip. I have called Fagor who have got their closest engineer to get in touch to come and fix whatever needs fixing. He got my wife to send him a photo of the set up so he can make sure what the boiler/model is. BUT he has come back complaining that the set-up is wrong and if he is coming to fix the boiler he will have to fix the set-up as well. He says the pipe work and safety valve I put in is wrong. Picture 1 show my boiler in the under stairs cupboard and what me and my friend did in terms of cold in and hot out. http:// Now below is what the engineer wants to do, replacing my copper pipe and safety valve with what you see. He says if I don/t let him do it then I can get someone else to fix the boiler !!!!! All I want is him to fix the boiler. I have had no problems, no leaks no squeaks. I understood Fagor were fairly simple to fix and he is supposed to be a Fagor engineer. My question is, do I back down because my installation is wrong and let the guy fit (PPR?) pipes and a system I don't see is any better than the one in place or do I tell him 'no thank you'? ANy constructive knowledgable comment is most gratefully received. I don't mind being told our system is wrong but the Thai guy's approach is more than a little aggressive. http:// Edited July 8, 2013 by GentlemanJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayned Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 From the bottom drawing, it looks as if the unit is designed to be mounted in the up-right position. You have it mounted lying on its side. The heating element is most likely in the bottom of the tank. If his only concern is the copper pipe, then he's blowing smoke up your butt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Provided the boiler is oriented correctly as per the instructions then there's no issue. Can you get a replacement element? It shouldn't be beyond your plumber to swap it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) Wayned, Crossy Thanks guys. The boiler can be mounted liedown on its brackets, upright or on its side as seen. He does not want to re orientate the boiler just to replace the pipes!! He says the safety valve is on upside down!! My mate didnt appear stupid and knew all about good copper work as well. Crossy if I knew it were the element i would just have a go at doing it myself i think. The guy is due on Wednesday and I can see trouble as I hate bullshit! LoL Wayned Yeah that photo is just one he sent saying if he cant cut my pipes out and replace them like the ones shown he wont do the job! Edited July 8, 2013 by GentlemanJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'd say it's 99% a failed element, not exactly a lot to go wrong with a boiler Worth taking the cover off to check for ants or other creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 From the look of it you have the tap on the cold side. He has it on the hot side. A pipe break could cause hot water to flow out till the system is empty. This may or may not be a hazard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) From the look of it you have the tap on the cold side. He has it on the hot side. A pipe break could cause hot water to flow out till the system is empty. This may or may not be a hazard. Thanks Harrry. That's a good point. It was put on the cold side as that was the pressurized side in that it leads to the water pump of course. I will have another think then about that. Is the little safety valve ok? The Thai guy said it was the wrong way up and should be on the downside. That doesn't make sense to me, it is for a build up of pressure/steam. Edited July 8, 2013 by GentlemanJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 From the look of it you have the tap on the cold side. He has it on the hot side. A pipe break could cause hot water to flow out till the system is empty. This may or may not be a hazard. Thanks Harrry. That's a good point. It was put on the cold side as that was the pressurized side in that it leads to the water pump of course. I will have another think then about that. Is the little safety valve ok? The Thai guy said it was the wrong way up and should be on the downside. That doesn't make sense to me, it is for a build up of pressure/steam. I am not a plumber... my guess is down would be better because hot water could spurt up under pressure forming a geiser and posibly reaching where it could harm people. If it was down....or to the top of the unit the water possibly would have more chance to cool before it hit someone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doglover Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 From the look of it you have the tap on the cold side. He has it on the hot side. A pipe break could cause hot water to flow out till the system is empty. This may or may not be a hazard. Thanks Harrry. That's a good point. It was put on the cold side as that was the pressurized side in that it leads to the water pump of course. I will have another think then about that. Is the little safety valve ok? The Thai guy said it was the wrong way up and should be on the downside. That doesn't make sense to me, it is for a build up of pressure/steam. I am not a plumber... my guess is down would be better because hot water could spurt up under pressure forming a geiser and posibly reaching where it could harm people. If it was down....or to the top of the unit the water possibly would have more chance to cool before it hit someone. I agree (not a plumber either). If the pressure relief valve releases there will also be hot water not just steam. I have seen some systems where the relief point is piped to a drain to protect people from harm in case of release. I would imagine he does not have anything against your copper tubing but the relief valve positioning. When he reworks it he probably just prefers to use a different type of pipe. Maybe if you are able to fit some sort of tubing to the relief valve exit point and direct to an appropriate point he would except not re-fitting the piping? More than likely his ego will get in the way by the sounds of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The problem with this type of set up is what happens if the heater doesn't cut out ... the whole system pressure will increase until something gives, it should be the safety valve that lifts. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in you water system the thinnest blue plastic piping has been used. The safety valve, how do you know the pressure setting and how often do you test that it appears to work okay. The safety valve should definitely have escape pipework and be piped to somewhere safe. Looking at their website it appears that the safety valve has a screw thread to enable escape pipework to be fitted. The isolation valve should be fitted on the outlet side as if anything fails downstream (the hot side)it is far safer for the boiler if you shut that valve and not the supply valve. The water side will remain pressurised and no risk of it boiling dry. An inlet isolation valve is useful for maintenance ... the guy may be worried that someone might shut this valve with the boiler on, however I'm sure other valves on your system could be shut that would isolate the water to the boiler. I don't know the quality of the relief valve, if it's at all suspect I'd fit two. If you have ever seen a hot water or steam safety valve lift you wouldn't want to be anywhere near the exhaust. I have had a few years experience in operating boilers, big ones. One final thought, where is the electrical isolator for the boiler ... one day you may need to get at it and the safety valve is lifting. Hope this helps ... by the way what is the boiler type number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) As I couldn't edit my post (above) ... don't know why ... there should be an NRV on the inlet (supply) side ... maybe it's integral with the boiler. And it's not a good idea to have plastic piping going right up to the boiler either. Edited July 9, 2013 by JAS21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Interesting thoughts above. Here is one of many installation manuals on the web http://www.americanwaterheater.com/support/manuals/res-elect.pdf None of them advocate a stop valve in the outlet. All of them require a pipe to drain on the relief valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Interesting...l.it says no pvc pipe. Also it mentions tthe sacrificial anode, When you have the engineer there get it checked and replaced. In Australia the houssing condition allow a 5 year life on this kind of hot water service as they find the service costs of replacing them are higher than replacing the unit every 5 years or so when it fails which they do. That is not the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 That article is interesting. It mentions having an expansion tank on the inlet. How much the closed system pressure will increase is pretty well impossible to work out even given the relative volumes of boiler and system pipework. But it more than likely will increase somewhat. An interesting article is http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Hot_Water_Expansion.htm for those who may be interested. We are never too old to learn something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacificperson Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) If I understand the picture correctly, the safety valve is set into the discharge line. In the second picture, the safety valve is in the background. It looks as if it is in the third opening. I know that my tank has three openings. Inlet, outlet and safety valve. Also, the valve I use only has two openings - pressure side and release side. Does your valve have three openings - in, out and release? Are they marked? It is possible that the valve is in the line backwards in this case. I can't tell from the picture. A close-up of the valve would help. Edited July 9, 2013 by Pacificperson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 It appears that the engineer was at least more right than wrong. It may pay to take his advice. Not all thai engineers are incompetant. I think you will find a good engineer of any country would refuse to work on an unsafe instalation. Attitude that may be but his reputation stands on his work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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