Corruption?

[Thailand]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318

[soi41]

Thailand with 18% of the interviewed paid for corruption!

Now we are waiting for the next poll: Is lying as natural as breathing for you??

[aussiebebe]

I understand that data comes from Transparency International but I've never understood how there can possibly be a globally-agreed upon definition of corruption. For example, if an American wants to get a new passport quicker in the US, they pay more and get faster service, in Thailand if you pay money to jump the queue that's corruption and is defined as a bribe.

[Sophon]

I understand that data comes from Transparency International but I've never understood how there can possibly be a globally-agreed upon definition of corruption. For example, if an American wants to get a new passport quicker in the US, they pay more and get faster service, in Thailand if you pay money to jump the queue that's corruption and is defined as a bribe.

It's very simple in the examples you have given, just see who pockets the money. If the "priority fee" is an official fee and the money goes to the government/company then it has nothing to do with corruption. However, if the money is pocketed by the employees then it's corruption.

Sophon

[Thailand]

I understand that data comes from Transparency International but I've never understood how there can possibly be a globally-agreed upon definition of corruption. For example, if an American wants to get a new passport quicker in the US, they pay more and get faster service, in Thailand if you pay money to jump the queue that's corruption and is defined as a bribe.

And I would think that many of those asked the question here would not even think they had been involved in corruption by paying a little extra for a service or even "promotion payment" etc,as this is the norm as far as they are concerned.

[mickjn]

For those that havent paid remember I have paid plenty I have paid your share

[CrypticBob]

They pay their share whenever they're stuck in a queue at immigration, or in traffic, or whenever they are let down by public services

[kikoman]

Those that willingly pay a bribe for faster service, to not have to wait, or to get out of a traffic violation are as corrupt as those that take the bribe.

As your actions of paying a bribe, put all Farang's at risk to be preyed upon for some tea money!

No one has paid my share of bribes, for I do not knowingly pay bribes, people must take ownership of their own actions and not try to justify their actions by saying they paid my share!

Cheers:

[geriatrickid]

My employer has a specific statement in the employee manual on corrupt practices. It is quite clear: Bribery is forbidden and engaging in illegal acts is grounds for immediate termination. Most western countries' companies are subject to specific laws in respect to foreign corruption. The penalties are tough.

[StreetCowboy]

My employer has a specific statement in the employee manual on corrupt practices. It is quite clear: Bribery is forbidden and engaging in illegal acts is grounds for immediate termination. Most western countries' companies are subject to specific laws in respect to foreign corruption. The penalties are tough.

Though perhaps not so universally applied as to be assured of compliance.

Do you want a to get the job done well, or done by a mate? And what is the opinion of the tax-payer?

there;s a continuum from respected companies, to companies I trust, to my mates, to the chaps that I drink with, to the chaps that pay for my holidays, througj to telling my subordinates to award contracts to the chaps that paid for my villa, or to my company.

But at the end of the day we need to remember .... SPLAT!... what do you say to the widows and orphans?

SC

[ETatBKK]

last week my car broke down due to flat tyre. the roadside service arrived and replaced the spare tyre. this is a subcribed service by annual fee, no charge per call. I gave B100 to the guy as 'bonus'. corruption or not ?

NO in Thai norm ?

YES in my own country !

Edited July 11, 2013 by ETatBKK

[StreetCowboy]

last week my car broke down due to flat tyre. the roadside service arrived and replaced the spare tyre. this is a subcribed service by annual fee, no charge per call. I gave B100 to the guy as 'bonus'. corruption or not ?

NO in Thai norm ?

YES in my own country !

No. Did the guy refuse to fix the tyre until you paid the money? Did he come to you in preference to someone else because you gave him the money? Did the tip in any way influence the way he did the job?

SC

[tuky]

My employer has a specific statement in the employee manual on corrupt practices. It is quite clear: Bribery is forbidden and engaging in illegal acts is grounds for immediate termination. Most western countries' companies are subject to specific laws in respect to foreign corruption. The penalties are tough.

Yep, I was in a 6 monthly Code of Conduct refresher that a company I worked for made us do.

We were working in a notoriously corrupt country.

The question was asked about what to do when the cops pulled us over, the CoC trainer said just pay up, there's nothing you else can do.

[ETatBKK]

ha ha ha . . . that's the grey area of corruption, and your questions all make sense !

I paid him after the job is done, as a 'form' of tips, a kind of 'practice' here.

but, it could be a form of 'unstated' tea money, really depends on situation. we used to have telephone man fixed the line - 'tea money', ambulance guys sent grandmon home - 'tea money' . . . it took some decades to change this culture, now 'no tips allowed' on the job card, or you may get into a trouble.

here I saw a year end present is a Mercedes C class. in my country, any Christmas gift over USD50, we have to register to the corporate controller.

[ABCer]

I understand that data comes from Transparency International but I've never understood how there can possibly be a globally-agreed upon definition of corruption. For example, if an American wants to get a new passport quicker in the US, they pay more and get faster service, in Thailand if you pay money to jump the queue that's corruption and is defined as a bribe.

It's very simple in the examples you have given, just see who pockets the money. If the "priority fee" is an official fee and the money goes to the government/company then it has nothing to do with corruption. However, if the money is pocketed by the employees then

it's corruption.

Sophon

Sophon, are you trying to say that an individual, say, official can be corrupt, but the Gov't cannot? I know perfectly well WHAT you are talking about. I had to pay in Oz a higher fee for a quick same day passport. And it's good that such a facility exists. Yet your explanation is not up to ... Corruption wherever it exists, is there SANCTIONED by the Gov't. It is not enough to declare a 'crackdown' ... the Gov't has to 'pay for honesty' first, than it can introduce punishment for breaches.

If a cop is not getting enough for a decent lifestyle - he will become corrupt. You would. And I would too.

In Oz cops are paid enough to be honest. Even than, there are occasional cases of corruption. Among any groups, not excluding politicians, doctors, judges, cops, etc. But in Oz this is not SYSTEMIC!

From a consumer point of view the example is not valid. Once I got a speedy resolution of my paperwork what difference there is to me who pockets the money?

Edited July 12, 2013 by ABCer

[Sophon]

I understand that data comes from Transparency International but I've never understood how there can possibly be a globally-agreed upon definition of corruption. For example, if an American wants to get a new passport quicker in the US, they pay more and get faster service, in Thailand if you pay money to jump the queue that's corruption and is defined as a bribe.

It's very simple in the examples you have given, just see who pockets the money. If the "priority fee" is an official fee and the money goes to the government/company then it has nothing to do with corruption. However, if the money is pocketed by the employees then

it's corruption.

Sophon

Sophon, are you trying to say that an individual, say, official can be corrupt, but the Gov't cannot? I know perfectly well WHAT you are talking about. I had to pay in Oz a higher fee for a quick same day passport. And it's good that such a facility exists. Yet your explanation is not up to ... Corruption wherever it exists, is there SANCTIONED by the Gov't. It is not enough to declare a 'crackdown' ... the Gov't has to 'pay for honesty' first, than it can introduce punishment for breaches.

If a cop is not getting enough for a decent lifestyle - he will become corrupt. You would. And I would too.

In Oz cops are paid enough to be honest. Even than, there are occasional cases of corruption. Among any groups, not excluding politicians, doctors, judges, cops, etc. But in Oz this is not SYSTEMIC!

From a consumer point of view the example is not valid. Once I got a speedy resolution of my paperwork what difference there is to me who pockets the money?

No a government cannot be corrupt, but individual members or even all members of that government can be. I know it's popular these days to label a government or organisation as corrupt, but it really is an individual characteristic. One example of an organisation that is riddled with corruption and often proclaimed as corrupt is IOC (the International Olympic Committee), but it is really (most of) the members of the committee that are corrupt and exploiting their position, not the organisation itself.

Governments/organisations/companies set official policy including taxes and fees for services. As long as the money are collected according to that policy, then it's not corruption no matter what you may think about those fees/taxes. If you disagree then select a new government the next time or stop buying your product/services at that company.

You are right that underpaying people like the police makes it very difficult to eliminate corruption. And practices like having to pay for a promotion on the expectation that you will recoup your "investment" with your cut of future bribes ensures that there will be no "top-down" action, since the top stands to lose the most. But none of that changes the fact that a cop that extorts a bribe from you for an imagined traffic offence (or even for a real offence) is corrupt. You may argue (and I would agree) that his boss demanding a certain amount per month from each of his cops is more corrupt, but that just makes both cop and boss corrupt it doesn't absolve the cop.

If you pay an "unofficial fee" to grease the wheels and achieve something that should not be possible, then it's corruption. If you cannot achieve something that you are entitled to, unless you pay an "unofficial fee", then it's corruption. If a cop exploits his position to extort a bribe from you for an imagined offence, then it's corruption (it's also corruption if the offence was real, but the money is pocketed by the cop). If you a charged an official fee for preferential treatment (like aussiebebe's example with the passport fee), and that fee is correctly credited the organisations account, then it's not corruption. You may disagree with that fee and feel that it puts some people (who can afford the fee) ad an unfair advantage, but that doesn't make it corruption.

It really isn't rockets science to determine what is corruption. However finding a way to eliminate corruption once it's engrained in a system is.

Sophon

Edited July 13, 2013 by Sophon