Best No Fee & Low-Fee Bank Cards for Americans 2013-

[vagabond48]

I have a TD Ameritrade account and called them regarding their debit card. I called twice, 1st call to get information then 2nd call to confirm the information. Of course, I got 2 different answers regarding their foreign transaction fee. The 1st rep said, there was no fee, while the 2nd rep said there was a 1% fee. Add the possibility that like Fidelity, we are told there is a 1% visa fee but actually the fee is not passed to us. I am hoping someone has used their debit card overseas and can clarify their fee policy.

As much as I hated what Schwab did, I really miss their card. It was the Emperor of DCs.

"If" you already have their debit card just give it a test. Go to an AEON ATM, withdraw Bt500, and then see if a separate 1% fee or a 1% lower exchange rate charge hits your account...worst case you get hit with 1% in fees which amounts to a 5 baht (16 cents) fee/lower exchange rate to do the test. But if you don't already have their debit card and don't want it if it does have a 1% fee, or not in Thailand/overseas right now to do a test I can understand your question.

I don't have their DC or I would have tried a test as you suggested.

Btw, the least you can withdraw from Aeon is 1000B, at one of the CM ATM machines. I tried to squeeze out another 500B due to the slightly weaker baht but it returned with " only enter increments of a 1000B"

Edited August 2, 2013 by vagabond48

[Pib]

I have a TD Ameritrade account and called them regarding their debit card. I called twice, 1st call to get information then 2nd call to confirm the information. Of course, I got 2 different answers regarding their foreign transaction fee. The 1st rep said, there was no fee, while the 2nd rep said there was a 1% fee. Add the possibility that like Fidelity, we are told there is a 1% visa fee but actually the fee is not passed to us. I am hoping someone has used their debit card overseas and can clarify their fee policy.

As much as I hated what Schwab did, I really miss their card. It was the Emperor of DCs.

"If" you already have their debit card just give it a test. Go to an AEON ATM, withdraw Bt500, and then see if a separate 1% fee or a 1% lower exchange rate charge hits your account...worst case you get hit with 1% in fees which amounts to a 5 baht (16 cents) fee/lower exchange rate to do the test. But if you don't already have their debit card and don't want it if it does have a 1% fee, or not in Thailand/overseas right now to do a test I can understand your question.

I don't have their DC or I would have tried a test as you suggested.

Btw, the least you can withdraw from Aeon is 1000B, at one of the CM ATM machines. I tried to squeeze out another 500B due to the slightly weaker baht but it returned with " only enter increments of a 1000B"

It could have been low on 500 baht notes. I'll give it a try probably this weekend here in Bangkok since I probably need to visit my friendly AEON ATM for some cash.

[vagabond48]

I have a TD Ameritrade account and called them regarding their debit card. I called twice, 1st call to get information then 2nd call to confirm the information. Of course, I got 2 different answers regarding their foreign transaction fee. The 1st rep said, there was no fee, while the 2nd rep said there was a 1% fee. Add the possibility that like Fidelity, we are told there is a 1% visa fee but actually the fee is not passed to us. I am hoping someone has used their debit card overseas and can clarify their fee policy.

As much as I hated what Schwab did, I really miss their card. It was the Emperor of DCs.

"If" you already have their debit card just give it a test. Go to an AEON ATM, withdraw Bt500, and then see if a separate 1% fee or a 1% lower exchange rate charge hits your account...worst case you get hit with 1% in fees which amounts to a 5 baht (16 cents) fee/lower exchange rate to do the test. But if you don't already have their debit card and don't want it if it does have a 1% fee, or not in Thailand/overseas right now to do a test I can understand your question.

I did some looking at the TD Ameritrade and TD Bank websites. Both have a debit cards which apparently have slightly different rules/fees. It seems the TD Bank debit card (tied to a TD Bank checking account) does pass along the Visa currency conversion fee when reading their weasel word description of fees/note codes. But when reading the TD Ameritrade weasel word fees I got the impression they didn't pass along the Visa currency conversion fee for their debit card (tied to the brokerage account). And then you get into variables such as certain accounts have different fee rules...some would have typical fees waived. But neither card appeared to reimburse any ATM fees occurring outside the US/Canada. Enough to hurt you head.

But below is a couple of posts of people who apparently use TD Ameritrade debit cards (not to be confused with the TD Bank debit card) and it appears the 1% Visa currency conversion fee has not be passed along to them.

TDCapture1.JPG

TDCapture2.JPG

The 2nd comment sounds encouraging although it is 1 1/2 years old.

I guess it wont hurt to get the card on the chance that the 1% visa fee is waived.

I can at least use it in the US since it does reimburse all US ATM fees.

Unfortunately I wont be able to test it until I return to Thailand.

I also called TD Bank and their debit card isn't worth getting.

When I return to the US, armed with either a renewed DL or state Id, I will try to open a State Farm Account.

As I mentioned earlier, I miss the Schwab cards. I had both the high yield checking and high yield savings debit cards which let me take out $1000 and $500 respectively per day. I would make a call to any one of their reps 24/7 and I'd get fast approval to up my daily ATM withdrawal to $4000 per account ($8000 per day). You'd need at least 12 to 16 foreign transaction fee free cards to achieve this On top of that, with their risk management approval, I was able to withdraw $10,000 per debit card. Of course, these high withdrawals may have done me in with Schwab since these were done in Thailand and China.

Edited August 2, 2013 by vagabond48

[Pib]

TD Bank (as opposed to TD Ameritrade) used to be good when it came to ATM fees, both not charging ATM fees and reimbursing the fees of other banks. But all that changed back in 2011, and now for regular accounts they no longer reimburse other banks' ATM fees and it looks like their own basic checking accounts have a $2.50 flat fee for using non-TD ATMs (apparently in the U.S. or outside the U.S.). I didn't see anything one way or the other about a x% foreign currency fee being assessed by TD Bank, though.

http://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/2011/02/new-atm-fees-for-td-bank-checking-accounts-tips-to-avoid-atm-fees.html

PS0110.jpg

I think they (TD Bank) do pass along the foreign currency conversion fee in addition to the flat $2.50 fee for using any non-TD ATM. See Note 4 at this TD Bank Cross Border banking webpage and also cut and pasted below. I never saw anywhere were it said how much the conversion charge would be but when you read some of their other documents on the TD Bank web site where they are talk Visa debit card exchange rates to me it implied they would be passing along the 1% Visa fee (or any pass-through fee I saw somewhere in another note code/fine print) versus absorbing the fee. Seems some banks are using more weasel words now days when talking their debit card foreign transaction fee(s).

⁴Foreign currency withdrawals will include a conversion charge.

[Pib]

TD Bank (as opposed to TD Ameritrade) used to be good when it came to ATM fees, both not charging ATM fees and reimbursing the fees of other banks. But all that changed back in 2011, and now for regular accounts they no longer reimburse other banks' ATM fees and it looks like their own basic checking accounts have a $2.50 flat fee for using non-TD ATMs (apparently in the U.S. or outside the U.S.). I didn't see anything one way or the other about a x% foreign currency fee being assessed by TD Bank, though.

http://www.depositaccounts.com/blog/2011/02/new-atm-fees-for-td-bank-checking-accounts-tips-to-avoid-atm-fees.html

PS0110.jpg

I think they (TD Bank) do pass along the foreign currency conversion fee in addition to the flat $2.50 fee for using any non-TD ATM. See Note 4 at this TD Bank Cross Border banking webpage and also cut and pasted below. I never saw anywhere were it said how much the conversion charge would be but when you read some of their other documents on the TD Bank web site where they are talk Visa debit card exchange rates to me it implied they would be passing along the 1% Visa fee (or any pass-through fee I saw somewhere in another note code/fine print) versus absorbing the fee. Seems some banks are using more weasel words now days when talking their debit card foreign transaction fee(s).

⁴Foreign currency withdrawals will include a conversion charge.

But if you go to the "thepointsguys.com" link given in TallGuy's post #60 above it says TD Bank does not charge a foreign transaction fee, just the flat $2.50 fee, based on the site asking TD Bank. Hope the CSR they asked was right.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pib

[fletchsmile]

Be careful you're not letting the tail wag the dog. Any fees you might save, may pale into insignificance compared to the USA's high number of bank defaults each year (average 100 or so a years 2009 - 2012).

The deposit insurance protection of only USD 250k is also inferior to Thailand, and bear in mind that was only raised when the proverbial hit the fan. If the economy starts to pick up a little more, and the government starts the inevitable pull away from supporting everything under the sun, you could get caught in the wrong bank at the wrong time.

While using a US address to open an account may be convenient at account opening for cutting thru the paperwork, when things go wrong being based in Thailand and banking in the US could be a hassle, even on the small things, not to mention the big stuff.

For someone living in Thailand, Thai banks may well offer a safer and more convenient bet on the big stuff, and of course zero fees on most (debit and credit) card based stuff. Rebates and loyalty bonuses at local shops/restaurants/cash backs very good too!

Cheers

Fletch

[Pib]

Be careful you're not letting the tail wag the dog. Any fees you might save, may pale into insignificance compared to the USA's high number of bank defaults each year (average 100 or so a years 2009 - 2012).

The deposit insurance protection of only USD 250k is also inferior to Thailand, and bear in mind that was only raised when the proverbial hit the fan. If the economy starts to pick up a little more, and the government starts the inevitable pull away from supporting everything under the sun, you could get caught in the wrong bank at the wrong time.

While using a US address to open an account may be convenient at account opening for cutting thru the paperwork, when things go wrong being based in Thailand and banking in the US could be a hassle, even on the small things, not to mention the big stuff.

For someone living in Thailand, Thai banks may well offer a safer and more convenient bet on the big stuff, and of course zero fees on most (debit and credit) card based stuff. Rebates and loyalty bonuses at local shops/restaurants/cash backs very good too!

Cheers

Fletch

Kinda like comparing Apples & Oranges I think. The U.S. has many, many thousands more banks/credit unions than Thailand. The time period you quoted was during the recent financial crisis that primarily hit the western nations. In the 5 years preceding 2008 only 10 banks failed in the U.S. and in 2013 bank failures are way down as the western world climbs out of the financial crisis. The great majority of bank/credit union failures were small banks/credit union which serviced a small area. Wikipedia U.S. Bank Failures Link

While the Thailand does have a Deposit Protection Agency which cover deposits up to 50M baht through 10 Aug 15, then dropping to 25M baht though 10 Aug 16, and then on 11 Aug 16 it drops to 1M baht (approx. $32K). And I know I'm not living in a dream world that the Thai govt would provide up to Bt50M deposit protection if a financial crisis quickly hit Thailand. See this link for Thailand Deposit Protection Agency info.

Maybe you could expand on the Thailand banking system consumer protection laws and policies---I've had a hard time finding much of any that really provide any significant protection....seems it's more banking protection than consumer protection. And when it comes to being able to move money easily out of Thailand using the Thai banking system, well, that is when the Land of Smiles turns into the Land of Frowns.

Now, with above being said I do keep approx. 1M baht in Thai banks in fixed saving deposits to cover my yearly retirement extension of stay Bt800K requirement and having emergency money immediately on hand....and a little more in regular savings accounts for day-to-day living needs in using a Thai bank debit card and ibanking to pay bills. But, that's about my limit simply because of the Thai banking system. I may get brave and go over that Bt1M by increasing my fixed savings account amount...but only up to 11 Aug 16 when the Thai deposit protection returns to a low Bt1M (approx. $32K).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For someone living in Thailand, Thai banks may well offer a safer and more convenient bet on the big stuff, and of course zero fees on most (debit and credit) card based stuff. Rebates and loyalty bonuses at local shops/restaurants/cash backs very good too!

Hard to believe anyone could seriously make an assertion like that.

Thai banks for farangs = no consumer protections, no protection/restitutiton for those victimized by bank card or ATM fraud, no legally mandated purchase protection coverage for credit card purchases, no meaningful support from any government agency or the police in the event of problems, no meaningful recourse in the Thai legal system, etc etc.

As for deposit insurance, the Thai government program was already supposed to have been reduced to 1 million baht ($30,000+) effective this month. But apparently the government decided to push back the phased reduction in coverage as Pib noted above. In contrast, the U.S. limit had been $100,000 for years and in recent years was raised to $250,000. There's zero indication that there's likely to be any reduction in that U.S. coverage, while the Thai coverage clearly is headed downward in a big way.

And, the Thai deposit insurance program only protects against the financial failure of the bank, and does nothing to protect accountholders against theft or fraud, whether by bank employees or anyone else.

As for "no fees", let's not forget about the standard Thai bank credit card interest rate of 20% APR, annual card renewal and issuance fees, charges for online bill payments, charges for transferring funds from one bank to other banks, charges if you lose a card and need it replaced, and on and on....

Ahh, and if you're a farang, don't expect the Thai bank to grant you one of their wonderful credit cards unless you can show them a work permit or you're prepared to lock down a sizable amount as a deposit guarantee.

In the U.S. banking system, accountholders have rights and protections, written into law and enforced by government agencies, along with a vast banking marketplace where competition means there's a wide range of different accounts, terms, interest rates, perks etc. available that can meet pretty much anyone's needs, along with meaningful and assured FDIC deposit insurance protections that really protected/reimbursed acountholders thru all the U.S. bank failures Fletch alluded to above -- and without the accountholders having to wait months or years, or endure long legal fights. Thai banks have none of that.

Meanwhile, if you're interested in reading about the Thai government's deposit protection program at the Deposit Protection Agency website, you're better be able to read Thai, because their English language homepage is a dead link.

Edited August 2, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[fletchsmile]

Perhaps it is a case of apples and oranges. The US situation is a case of wading thru the barrel and trying to avoid the rotten apples, and with an increasingly manipulated system it's hard to know what the real situation is.

It's naive to expect that the US government won't also tinker with the $250k when it suits them. The reason it was increased was the US was at risk of systemic failure, and they saw little other choice to avoid a mass exodus of funds. It's ironic that Thailand needs to maintain its level due in part to weaker US and global banks - Thai banks are healthier so need it less, but they can't reduce as the western banks still need this guarantee to avoid lack of confidence and exodus, as they're weaker. There's a good chance the revised dates for reduction in Thailand won't happen either until the west finally sorts things out.

For the "big stuff", i.e get your money back and bank not go bankrupt, it's much easier to see where Thai banks stand. The assertion is simple: how many Thai banks have defaulted in the last 10 years, and how many US banks - as a percentage? Going forward Thailand's banks also have healthy liquidity and capital positions, which can't be said of the entire US system. Which country will have a higher % of defaults in the next 5 years?

To say it is just small banks is absolutely no excuse. What sort of regulatory environment accepts letting any bank get to this stage year in and year out? Lehmans, Bankers Trust were also hardly small. Fanni Mae, Freddie Mac - massive parts of the US system flawed and broken? Citibank needed assistance and was very close, as many others.

In terms of regulation: Thailand successfully implemented Basel II, and is now well on schedule for Basel III, with many banks this year creating countercylical capital buffers. For the US it really isn't clear where they are, and vested interests are still arguing and manipulating for their own interests: Basel 2/ Basel 3 / neither? Dodds Frank? Volker Rule? Perhaps one of you experts could explain to me the situation on these?

They certainly don't have the capital to meet Basel 3 requirements in the same way Thai banks are going, not to mention liquidty either (without government interference). Throw in the economic situation and manipulation: sequester, no proper budget, QE (god knows what the US banking system might look like if this were removed), exposure to bankrupt cities, eg Detroit, rate manipulation, AML.

That's the bigger picture.

What do you think will happen as the US one day tries to get back to "normal"? Remove QE and cheap funding/ liquidity? Where will all these US banks really be? I'd also put money on the authorities using one or more banks as an example and being allowed to fail to prove the system is now "healed", when the time is "right." It might be a few years off, but that political example could well be your bank. These risks just aren't there in Thailand.

So on the big stuff I rate Thai banks as a safer bet than guessing what the real situation is in the US + economic factors + guessing regulations + politics. That's the key reminder. Don't forget the big picture and the risk of a big loss while focusing on the small fees stuff. Good luck!

Cheers

Fletch

Edited August 3, 2013 by fletchsmile

[TwentyBaht]

vagabond 48,

I've used a TD-Ameritrade debit card in Thailand for several years now. And, back to back pulls with Schwab and TD-Ameritrade debit cards on an Aeon ATM yield equal deductions. No FTF with either, in my experience.

And, as needed, I do pulls from both, and deposit into a Bangkok Bank account. But, also when needed, will use the low cost ACH via the NY branch of Bangkok Bank.

Would also mention the USAA Bank. Domestic ACH is free. And, account holders can have a foreign address. Although, the USAA debit card does incur a 1% FTF.

Cheers

[Pib]

@ Fletch: After reading your response and TallGuy's input, my opinion is unchanged...I'll stick to the safety of my US banks backed by enforced laws and consumer protections for the bulk of my funds.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

Edited August 3, 2013 by Pib

[fletchsmile]

For someone living in Thailand, Thai banks may well offer a safer and more convenient bet on the big stuff, and of course zero fees on most (debit and credit) card based stuff. Rebates and loyalty bonuses at local shops/restaurants/cash backs very good too!

......

As for "no fees", let's not forget about the standard Thai bank credit card interest rate of 20% APR, annual card renewal and issuance fees, charges for online bill payments, charges for transferring funds from one bank to other banks, charges if you lose a card and need it replaced, and on and on....

Ahh, and if you're a farang, don't expect the Thai bank to grant you one of their wonderful credit cards unless you can show them a work permit or you're prepared to lock down a sizable amount as a deposit guarantee.

In the U.S. banking system, accountholders have rights and protections, written into law and enforced by government agencies, along with a vast banking marketplace where competition means there's a wide range of different accounts, terms, interest rates, perks etc. available that can meet pretty much anyone's needs, along with meaningful and assured FDIC deposit insurance protections that really protected/reimbursed acountholders thru all the U.S. bank failures Fletch alluded to above -- and without the accountholders having to wait months or years, or endure long legal fights. Thai banks have none of that.

Meanwhile, if you're interested in reading about the Thai government's deposit protection program at the Deposit Protection Agency website, you're better be able to read Thai, because their English language homepage is a dead link.

My Thai bank fees come to about 200 baht a year - BKK bank ATM card. I think I can manage that. On the positive side we receive about THB 2k a month on various cash back and loyalty bonuses for food, restaurants, petrol stations, etc, not counting discounts at stores.

Perhaps tongue in cheek, but think about the other side of the coins:

- If you can't pay off your balance each month then you're probably someone who shouldn't be using a credit card in the first place. This is one example of how the US racked up mountains of bad debts, and actually one problem still not properly addressed there. Pay your credit card off each and every month and the rate is zero for every bank

- I got my first ever Thai credit card easily with as you say a work permit. Why would Thailand want to lend to US citizens who don't work? The US has already proved that too many people there can't handle debt properly and over borrow on things they can't afford, from mortgages to credit cards. Debts that can't be repaid are now bringing down the whole country (including the good payers). Why would Thailand want to import all these issues here? Why bother sorting the wheat from the chaff - US banks obviously tried and failed? Much easier also to deal with Thais than foreigners when tracking down debts, and much bigger market too. Perhaps if the US banks had had much tighter lending and underwriting standards it wouldn't be in such a mess now.

- The high level of protection you mention, does come at a cost. Someone pays for it. The US is something of a nanny state, overly regulated yet not always effective either. Spill your coffee and sue the restaurant. Choose not to work and get money from the government. Get drunk in a red light district in BKK and lose your card to a hooker or drug dealer and the bank covers you (costs of course ultimately passed back to everyone else). For banks, those costs have to be borne. Part of what happened was that regulatory costs increases + competition got so intense and margins much thinner, so banks found "innovative" solutions to their resultant unprofitability, which then go wrong in terms of things like leverage

- Perhaps you'd also like to post a link to the Thai language version of all US regulations while you're at it. When you've clarified which ones have been "bought" in by self interest groups (BTW not a mispelling of brought)

Basically as Thais say, this is Thailand we do things differently here. When it comes to finance the onus is on you to be more responsible for your own actions, rather than be bailed out by a nanny state. (Kind of ironic too when you think how often Thais don't take responsibility for many things Then again knowing that about Thai people and if you were a bank you'd want to shift the burden too )

Cheers

Fletch

Edited August 3, 2013 by fletchsmile

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Good... I'm sure you'll be happy to take responsibility next time your Thai bank debit or credit card is skimmed or copied or stolen (obviously due to your own flagrant negligence) and some thief tries to drain your Thai bank account or rings up thousands of baht in charges at your expense before you know what's happened or can alert your bank..

And when you seek redress from your Thai bank (assuming you don't just count the losses as part of living in a non-Nanny State), the Thai bank staff laugh at you with mirth....

As for credit cards, it's pretty narrow minded to suggest that only foreigners on work permits should qualify for credit cards here, considering that there's a huge retiree community and many among those who have plenty of disposable income and probably are more stable and long-staying residents compared to the transient work permit crowd.

Obviously, you have some gripe against U.S. banks, perhaps because they're the dominant force in the world banking industry, as opposed to your home country or the piddling Thai banking industry.

PS - Why is it so-often the bankers who are so quick to tell everyone how wonderful the Thai banks are here....

Edited August 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

Would also mention the USAA Bank. Domestic ACH is free. And, account holders can have a foreign address. Although, the USAA debit card does incur a 1% FTF.

USAA is my bank, and their speedy, and free, ACH service can't be beat. But their 1% FTF, on ATM pulls and POS transactions, plus the fact that all their debit/atm cards are MasterCard, means these cards are only for emergencies, since ACHing to my Bangkok Bank account, even with amounts as low as $900, is cheaper than paying the 1% FTF (let alone worrying about avoiding ATM owner fees).

I'm starting to beat a dead horse, I know, but if you can't get a completely feeless ATM card that also avoids owner ATM fees, either by reimbursement or Aeon, a 1% fee card is NOT your best second option.

And if that feeless debit/atm card is a MC, you'll still do better by ACHing, at least amounts of $9k or more (see below).

Looking at 10 Thai banking days' data (15 July thru 29 July), here are the averages:

Bangkok Bank Selling TT Rate (0830):

30.91

Visa Rate:

30.95

MasterCard Rate:

30.82

Ok, say you ACH $9000 thru Bangkok Bank NY. BB NY strips out $10, so $8990 crosses the pond. The TT rate of 30.91 gets you 277,880.90 baht. Strip out the backend fee of 500 baht, you realize 277, 380.90 baht into your bank account. Divide this by 9000, your effective rate is is 30.82. That's the same rate you'd get with your completely fee free MasterCard, assuming all owner ATM fees avoided/reimbursed. And, of course, your effective rate would be even better the more over $9000 that you ACH.

Obviously, Visa is the way to go for both debit/atm and credit cards, if possible, as the data above still confirms that the Visa network gets a better exchange rate than MC/Cirrus.* And, since it consistently does better than the TT rate -- a rate an ACH transfer will never exceed -- feefree Visa transactions are still king when it comes to turning dollars into baht.

But. other factors come into play. A cash rewards program can offset, and even sweeten, the 1% FTF. And make up for the fact that it's a MasterCard, not a Visa card.

Of course, ACHing a large chunk of money when the dollar is appreciating would not be too smart. However, if you know which way the dollar is going, your not wasting your time reading this forum

* Don't know why Visa gets a better exchange rate than MC for the baht. This is true for US issued plastic, but not plastic from EURO countries. The following from the same 10 days of data:

Bangkok Bank Selling TT Rate (0830):

40.58

Visa Rate:

40.58

MasterCard Rate:

40.67

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm starting to beat a dead horse, I know, but if you can't get a completely feeless ATM card that also avoids owner ATM fees, either by reimbursement or Aeon, a 1% fee card is NOT your best second option.

And if that feeless debit/atm card is a MC, you'll still do better by ACHing, at least amounts of $9k or more (see below).

Jim, it never hurts to reiterate some of the basic economic realities of expat banking here. There's always someone new reading and someone who's only catching post 512 after having skipped the first 500.

Fortunately, there are still quite a few U.S. no foreign currency fee VISA debit cards to be had, and, depending on where one lives, access to no-fee AEON ATMs in a lot of areas of Thailand. And then there's always ATM fee-reimbursing accounts as a fall-back after that.

It's great you've done the analysis on the tipping point for the merits of using a no fee MC debit card vs. BKK Bank's New York ACH route.

Some things certainly are worth repeating:

Obviously, Visa is the way to go for both debit/atm and credit cards, if possible, as the data above still confirms that the Visa network gets a better exchange rate than MC/Cirrus.* And, since it consistently does better than the TT rate -- a rate an ACH transfer will never exceed -- feefree Visa transactions are still king when it comes to turning dollars into baht.

That's why this thread is here....to learn about those available cards and the details associated with them.

Edited August 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You know...something we really ought to pull together here.... is a comparison of the various brokerage house debit cards that are available and their terms, especially since they do seem to offer some of the better banking deals available... Schwab, Fidelity, TD Ameritrade, Scottrade, etc etc...

There's been a fair amount of discussion about various of these in the posts above.... and I'm learning more and more about various of these as different members who have those accounts contribute their knowledge and details.

I have a current brokerage account with one provider that I'm looking to move, mainly because they won't allow me (for reasons I can't understand) to designate a beneficiary who doesn't have a U.S. SSN, while lots of other brokerages have no such restriction.

It's a retirement account, not one I use for cash in Thailand right now. But it is one I'm looking to move (to someplace other than Schwab, which I already have), and I guess their debit card terms ought to be part of the equation...Fidelity, Vanguard, TD, choices choices....

Want a VISA card for future cash access...no foreign currency fee.... low/competitive prices on brokerage transactions.... international/expat friendly... user friendly online banking and market info/trading access via their website.... Who best fits the bill???

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

We had some discussion earlier in this thread about the use of VPNs, both in opening new accounts and whether to use for ongoing account access...

There was a mid-July post by member Twentybaht in another related thread on Schwab's international accounts that I found very interesting...so I wanted to copy it here for everyone to see.... It adds some interesting info and insight to the discussion:

I will add a bit of personal experience relating to US brokerage accounts/debit cards. Using a VPN. And, logging into accounts from here in Thailand.

My TD-Ameritrade debit card incurs no foreign exchange transaction fee. Back-to-back pulls of equal amounts with Schwab card (Visa) and TD-Ameritrade card (Visa) yield the same deduction via an Aeon ATM. But, ATM charges are not reimbursed with TD-Ameritrade.

I applied for my Schwab account/card two years ago. From here. Mailed in the application. Did not do online. And, have logged in weekly from here ever since. And, do monthly pulls. No problems. since first opening the account.

And, I have logged into the TD-Ameritrade account from here for many years.

But, two years ago, I received an email that my TD-Ameritrade account was closed. Reason? I was at a hotel in Chiang Rai and used a VPN (US based server) to log into my account. My first time to log into the account using a VPN. And, their IT people flagged my account login as being through a VPN?

The opening of the account required a long phone conversation. Being asked many questions about past personal information. Information databased from many years of credit reports. A bit difficult. Remembering cars owned, addresses lived, people you have known over many years, etc. But, after the initial shock, everything went well. Answered the questions. Told them I was in Thailand. Extended vacation. Account reopened.

Further conversation with the CS folks revealed more regarding their IT security procedures. VPN are a concern to them. And, I gather that once they are suspicious of a particular VPN, then everyone that logs in through that VPN is flagged. As, in my case. I, also, learned during the conversation there had been an attempt of fraud through the VPN I was using.

A few months went by, logging in as normal. Then, I stayed in the same hotel in Chiang Rai. Logged into the TD-Ameritrade account. Next day, received another email that my account was closed. Another conversation with their CS. Seems the IT security still had record of my last login from there. How? And, flagged the account. Even though, I had not used a VPN. The account was reopened using the same procedure again. Easier, the second time. The IT people didn't want to answer any particulars about the flagging. I then pointedly asked if the problem was with my logging in from Thailand. No, that was not the problem. The VPN login was/had been the problem.

And, all that said, I have logged into the TD-Ameritrade account almost weekly ever since then. And, no problem.

Anyway, this is my experience. Obviously, I am wary about using a VPN to log into accounts.

As additional information, I recently obtained a Fidelity Brokerage account. Doing it all online from here. Their procedure to verify applicants is your answering questions gleaned from your past credit reports. And, the experience reopening my TD-Ameritrade account was quite helpful.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/646955-schwab-one-personal-international-account/#entry6628884

As I mentioned above, I haven't had any problem with international log-ins for any number of different EXISTING accounts.

But I have had a few instances of problems with existing accounts where, I actually forgot I had a VPN or proxy turned on when doing a log-in, and then the financial institution's fraud/security staff later contacted me because someone was logging into my account from a location or IP address that was different from the norm.

So in my case, I'm not sure their system flagged me specifically because I had accidentally been using a proxy or a VPN, or because of the very different detail that my log-in IP had suddenly changed countries (which can happen due to any number of different circumstances).

As I said above, if I was going to use a VPN for banking, my initial sense would be to make sure to use it 100% of the time to avoid complictions. But now TwentyBaht's post above kind of raises some questions about that approach, since his info seems to suggest that it was the VPN use itself causing the flagging.

Edited August 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As additional information, I recently obtained a Fidelity Brokerage account. Doing it all online from here. Their procedure to verify applicants is your answering questions gleaned from your past credit reports. And, the experience reopening my TD-Ameritrade account was quite helpful.

I've gone thru this same kind of past credit history check many times in opening new financial accounts, and sometimes it gets a bit crazy... In my experience, it's usually a set of 4 different questions. And one time recently, they were asking me the birthday month of an ex-GF in the U.S. I had had a mortgage with some 20 years ago.... Yikes.... I couldn't remember between one of two months I knew was correct.

But as a result, I now keep a file folder in my home office with my free, annual credit reports that everyone is entitled to from the three major providers... and I put together kind of a summary cheat sheet of which companies I had in what years for various old mortgages, car loans, long past residence addresses, etc etc...

I've had them ask me details about that kind of stuff going back 20+ years that I simply don't remember off the top of my head, especially when the old companies change names or get bought out by others thru the years... And if you get the answers wrong when you're doing the questions online or over the phone with a CSR, it creates a lot of grief and headache in the account opening process.

Before you do anything that's going to involve that kind of past credit history grilling, best to gather all your info and have it at hand.

Edited August 3, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TwentyBaht]

As to answering the credit history query:

When asked which dates, places, cars, names are familiar my experience is it's permissible to simply say "I don't remember." And, go on to the next set. I believe, better to do that than guess.

And. after going through this twice; And, completing the Fidelity online variation of this; My experience is they are looking that you offer correct answers for about four or five sets of query. And, a wrong answer is not necessarily a terminal problem. Because, I remembered later that I answered wrong on one set. About, the year of a truck I had owned.

And, I'll add that on the Fidelity query, the birthday of the ex-wife was a pick in a set of query. That was thirty three years ago? Birthday? I had trouble remembering the name. Much less, the birthday. I skipped that one. And, went to the next query.

And, on the Fidelity query, you can also back click and redo a query set if you realize a mistake.

I'll add, I've thought a bit more about my VPN incident with TD-Ameritrade. How their IT security people would have had a record of the IP address in Chiang Rai? Where I had originally logged in with VPN? It may be a simple answer. If fraud had been attempted from the VPN I was using, or any VPN for that matter, then a court order could be issued to the VPN to uncover the origin IP.address. I can't help but think this will be an ongoing problem for VPN companies. And, large financial institutions will have reason to watch them closely.

Anyway, only my experience.

Cheers .

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

About the credit grilling, so I guess then there are differences between doing it on the phone with a CSR vs doing it via a website interface.

On all the website queries I've done, there's no option to say "I don't remember" or skip to another question. You either answer the four questions they present correctly, or your account is not automatically approved, and they may or may not forward it to the bank staff for further evaluation.

I've never tried to say "i dont remember" when on the phone with a CSR to see what would happen. I know they're just reading the info that some credit check/computer program in their system presents to them... I don't know if they'll always be able to just skip to a different question or set of questions and allow you to proceed.

PS - WOW... 30+ years back into personal history... And I thought my 20 years back question was bad.... Another liability that comes with getting older!!!

[thecheesestandsalone]

USAA v. Capital one 360

I have both and tried both here over the last month (July 2013) in Thailand to see which is better. One day I took out the same amount from each account at the same ATM (Aeon). I got a slightly better rate with the USAA card.

Also USAA does NOT reimburse ATM fees for machines outside of the US. I emailed them directly about fees I had in Thailand and that was their response.

YMMV

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting post, Cheese... And welcome to the forum..

We know that the USAA debit card passes along to customers a 1% card network fee on foreign ATM withdrawals...

But Cap One 360, supposedly, doesn't charge any fee of their own and shouldn't charge any more than 1% from MC, and potentially less.

So based on the info we've had up until now... the two should at worst the same. I'm believing both debit cards are MC logo, meaning the VISA vs. MC exchange rate differential shouldn't be an issue.

How much, if any, time difference was there between the two different card withdrawals you made on the same day at the same AEON ATM?

[thecheesestandsalone]

Actually I was mistaken.

360 had a slightly higher rate but the transaction dates are different on my account statement (7/21 for 360, and 7/22 for USAA). I am not sure if the date reflects a different day for calculation of the exchange rate or if this is just how each bank writes the date for a withdrawal in a location on the other side of the dateline from the bank.

USAA - 30.575

360 - 30.820

Close (.8%) but with lots of transactions over time I will opt for the 360 card now I think. USAA has superior service but often their rates are not the best for most of their products in my experience.

-cheese

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Do you recall, what date/time in local Thailand time you actually made the two withdrawals? And were they back-to-back or spread apart in actual time?

The updated results you post make more sense, since supposedly, the Cap One 360 FCF fee is something less than 1% (between 0.2% and 1%), though Cap One 360 apparently is not disclosing exactly what it is off the standard MC card network rate.

And obviously, from your post, you were able to successfully use the Cap One 360 debit card in an AEON ATM without any problem. So that's now a second confirming post from a Cap One 360 cardholder that those cards are OK with AEON -- unlike the regular Cap One debit cards that have been problematic.

That ought to make at least some folks feel better about using a Cap One 360 MC debit card here in Thailand.

Nonetheless, with the lower exchange rate of MC-logo cards (vs. VISA) and Cap One 360 passing along even a smaller card network fee, 360 cardholders are still leaving money on the table compared to using the no-FCF VISA debit cards out there.

Edited August 5, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Actually I was mistaken.

360 had a slightly higher rate but the transaction dates are different on my account statement (7/21 for 360, and 7/22 for USAA). I am not sure if the date reflects a different day for calculation of the exchange rate or if this is just how each bank writes the date for a withdrawal in a location on the other side of the dateline from the bank.

USAA - 30.575

360 - 30.820

Close (.8%) but with lots of transactions over time I will opt for the 360 card now I think. USAA has superior service but often their rates are not the best for most of their products in my experience.

-cheese

Yea, being in different date/time zones can throw some additional consideration in calculating exchange rates. Like Visa rates switch are from midnight U.S. Eastern time which would be 11am next day in Thailand. And another TV member, JimGant, said MC rates run from noon ET to noon ET, which means like for today the MC 4 Aug rates would run until 11pm 5 Aug in Thailand (I think). So, when it comes to determine exchange rates for an ATM withdrawal a person really needs to consider the time of day also.

Anyway, when looking at MC rates for 19-22 Jul it showed a rate of 30.8814. 19 was a Friday and apparently whatever rates apply for Friday also carry through the weekend and possibly into Monday.

So, if I apply USAA's 1% foreign transaction fee, which is really just MC full currency conversion fee that USAA does not absorb but passes along to the bank/customer, then I get 30.5726...real, real close to the 30.575 you got. Depending on the specific amount you pulled and rounding issues the third decimal point could vary a little. So, when just going to the second decimal place you and I match in the 30.57 calculation.

Now for the CapOne 360 if I apply a 0.2% MC lower end currency conversion rate to the 30.8814 full MC rate I get 30.8196 or 30.82 which match your number. I read somewhere that the exact currency conversion fee applied by MC could vary from 0.2 to 1% (and for Visa 0.15% to 1%) based on various factors. Plus I'm pretty sure somewhere in the CapOne 360 fine print now that although they say they don't charge a foreign transaction fee there still may be a MC currency conversion fee...and they say it like they don't absorb that fee...they just pass it along to you now.

So, based on Pib's math above, it looks like USAA passes along a 1% MC foreign transaction fee (which is the full MC currency conversion fee of 1% or maybe just a 0.2% MC fee and then USAA adds on another 0.8%) and CapOne 360 just passes along a 0.2% MC curruency conversion fee without adding additional on like USAA and other banks do.

[taxout]

On some of those questions -- "What color of car did you drive" 20 years ago -- I suspect they're storing the answer to verify your identity again at a later time. Thus even if you don't remember and are forced to guess, it's a good idea to make a note of the answer you gave. And yes, it's gotten so that you have to look up old addresses and such before you call a credit card company or bank.

Another problem is that sometimes you're asked the location where you normally sign in, and using TOR or a VPN you never really know. If you're talking to CS you can explain, but when you get an online entry box there's no good way to handle it.

[SurfRider]

.
A bit off-topic, but still relevant.

Four friends who have Schwab ATM Debit Cards have had their accounts hacked after using several ATMs in Pattaya and one in San Francisco. Random charges popping up in Russia and other far-away countries. Schwab resolved the issues, but it took some time. They had to issue new debit cards with new account numbers. It took some time for the new cards to arrive in Thailand and they had no access to their accounts for that period.

I try to avoid this possibility by only moving funds into my Schwab account when I need to make a withdrawal, then pulling the funds as soon as possible.

I suggested to Schwab that they adopt a security measure that Siam Commercial Bank (SCB) uses here. SCB notifies you via SMS text message as soon as any debit hits your account. I do monthly SCB transfers on-line and the SMS arrives on my phone in no less than 5 seconds after the transaction-- with a phone number to call if there is any question about the transaction.

Schwab thanked me for the suggestion and said they would pass it along to their security department. It seems that sending a few cheap SMS messages flying around the planet would be better than chasing funds in places like Russia, changing account numbers, and sending plastic to remote places like Thailand. Only time will tell if Schwab agrees . . .
.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It seems that sending a few cheap SMS messages flying around the planet would be better than chasing funds in places like Russia, changing account numbers, and sending plastic to remote places like Thailand.

SR, are you saying your friends with the Schwab debit cards had been using Thailand as their account mailing address with Schwab??? And do you know if their Schwab accounts were the domestic U.S. or international variety?

I ask because, you know we've been having a discussion here about Vagabond and some other Schwab customers getting their accounts abruptly canceled.

[SurfRider]

.

All their accounts are standard domestic Schwab accounts using U.S. addresses. Three of them live here full-time and only use their cards here - one lives in San Fran and uses it both here and there.

Not quite sure of the relevance of the question, but that's the answer.

I also use an ATM at a nearby CIMB bank because it allows 30K Baht withdrawals. This is one ATM that has hosted the hacked cards, but DOES NOT have a card skimmer, so I assume it was an "inside job" when their accounts were hacked. Presumably "inside job" means either CIMB or somewhere along the VISA network and not Schwab.

.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

SR, because in your prior post you wrote about "sending plastic to remote places like Thailand," which kind of implied your friends might have been using Thailand addresses with their Schwab accounts, and Schwab was having to send their replacement cards here.

And the issue we've had posts on here.... is that Schwab tends to not accept U.S. customers having foreign addresses for their domestic U.S. accounts, and when it encounters foreign addresses, supposedly will kick out those customers and force them into Schwab's international accounts segment.

Obviously, you've now clarified that they're all using U.S. addresses, which is the correct thing for Schwab account holders. Good to hear that they'd been using their Schwab cards here and not encountering any problems from Schwab.