Could Thailand become the first Asian country to legalize same-sex civil unions?

[ToddWeston]

I feel a bit guilty, I misread it, I thought it said "Blow Thai, be Free."

Shouldn't that be "Blow Thai for free"?

I knew it was neither because it's not the hubby's birthday.

Back on track - went to kill some time today and saw Any Day Now, I went because of the Downs issue but it's about a gay couples struggle to adopt/foster a downs child. I thought it interesting only 3 Thais out of 30 people in the cinema and 2 of those Thais were with me.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ToddWeston

[LeCharivari]

Back on track - went to kill some time today and saw Any Day Now, I went because of the Downs issue but it's about a gay couples struggle to adopt/foster a downs child. I thought it interesting only 3 Thais out of 30 people in the cinema and 2 of those Thais were with me.

Not really a film for a mainstream "Thai" audience.

On the question of gay adoptions in Thailand, which is tangential but relevant, this isn't really one which would be covered by any same-sex civil union/same-sex marriage legislation as adoption is covered. Children with learning difficulties, downs syndrome, etc, are actually the only children allowed to be adopted under Thai law by single women (and lesbian couples).

[Jingthing]

That last post was unclear.

Adoption is covered or is not covered in the potential Thai civil union bill?

[LeCharivari]

Sorry for any confusion (it looks as if I missed out " ... adoption is covered separately", so thanks for pointing that out).

To confirm, I repeat:

"Adoption rights are not part of the bill and this would not mean gay couples “losing” any adoption rights they have as single gay parents because, contrary to what has been posted here elsewhere, they barely have any – single men, gay or straight, are not allowed to adopt, and single women are only allowed to adopt special needs children. While it has been discussed there has been no proposal that this situation would change under a civil partnership law as the adoption laws are separate, stipulating that adoption (except for special needs children as above) must be by a man and a woman, aged over 25, etc."

It has nothing to do with marriage OR civil unions - adoptive parents don't need to be married, just to meet the requirements of the adoption regulations.

[Jingthing]

OK, thanks. As I thought, not so great for gay couples wanting to have families.

[frodo77]

My Thai bf and I were married in Canada. However, as gay marriage is still not legal here in Thailand, he is thus recognised as a single man. A couple of years ago he officially adopted his sister's son, with both his sister and her husband signing the consent forms. I was not part of the process. He is bringing the child up with his sister still involved. The husband has no interest in his biological son. So it is possible for a single man to adopt in Thailand.

[LeCharivari]

The regulations in Thailand make exceptions for a single adoptive parent where a close blood relative is concerned and both parents give consent - this is far from unusual in many Thai families, but the proposed marriage/civil union legislation would not change this.

With the natural parents' or the guardian's permission Thai children can live with virtually anyone and they frequently do: grand-parents, in-laws, relatives up-country, childless couples, etc, etc. They can be given the same rights and responsibilities, except with more legal supervision/control if required.

The reason these issues have so little interest for most Thais is that they have no relevance - gay couples (and others) can already effectively do what those in Western countries are trying to achieve.

(for anyone interested in the technicalities I gave links in my earlier posts)

Edited August 26, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

No they can't.

Right now in Thailand:

No gay marriage.

No gay civil unions.

No adoption by TWO same sex people together.

[onthemoon]

No they can't.

Right now in Thailand:

No gay marriage.

No gay civil unions.

No adoption by TWO same sex people together.

Thanks for the current facts. (I don't know anything about adoption, so that's excluded from the thanks, but it's off-topic anyway.)

This topic is about philophying whether Thailand 'could become...', which is in the future, not right now.

I'd say there is a chance.

Sent from my I-405 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Yes for civil unions, I agree there is a chance.

On the idea of legally joined same sex couples adopting children as a COUPLE, that looks much bleaker.

[onthemoon]

Yes for civil unions, I agree there is a chance.

On the idea of legally joined same sex couples adopting children as a COUPLE, that looks much bleaker. 

So we agree (as this topic has nothing to do with adoption, my agreement does not include that; it is a different issue).

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[Jingthing]

No, I don't agree with that.

Advocates of civil unions in various countries often like to paint them as equal to or at least almost equal to marriage.

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren't.

But any Thai civil union law that doesn't allow for adoption of children by the joined couple isn't even close to being equal to marriage.

To assert that adoption rights are off topic to a civil union discussion would be as silly as saying hospital visitation rights details (and so many OTHER rights that people expect in a MARRIAGE) were off topic to civil union discussions.

Basically, let's get real, the most basic thing you need to know when examining civil unions in any country is their level of equality to marriage in that country, and when not fully equal, what EXACTLY is missing.

If the SPECIFIC rights granted by a new social institution are off topic, frankly, what's on topic? That's the MEAT.

No, I am not suggesting Thai gay activists go for marriage equality yet. That's clearly not possible.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

otm is 100% correct - "this topic has nothing to do with adoption ... it is a different issue".

Not only does THIS TOPIC have nothing to do with adoption, but neither does marriage in Thailand, as I have explained a number of times with links to the relevant laws and procedures.

The two issues are UNCONNECTED - you do NOT have to be married in order to adopt, NOR does being married give you any additional rights to adopt.

The problem is that what SOME "people expect" in Thailand (or anywhere else) is based on what they "expect" in their own country, not on how things are done here or anywhere else. Each country has its own culture, traditions, procedures and laws and in Thailand "adoption rights" have no relevance to marriage - they may do in other countries but they don't HERE. That may be right, that may be wrong, and it doesn't matter whether anyone agrees with that or not as far as this thread or civil unions in Thailand is concerned - its a completely different issue and one which is hardly gay-related.

Basically, let's get real, the most basic thing you need to know when examining civil unions in any country is their level of equality to marriage in that country, and if you either don't know or don't accept what "marriage in that country" means (and in THIS country it does NOT mean adoption rights) then its rather "silly" to assert that any lack of adoption rights makes civil unions "not even close to being equal to marriage" - any adoption rights included in a civil union in Thailand would make them not only different to marriage, but grant EXTRA rights, which is NOT what "equality" is about.

[Jingthing]

Let me get this straight just for clarification.

A married couple in Thailand can or cannot adopt a child as a COUPLE with both the man and the woman BOTH being fully legally responsible parents to the adopted child?
Yes or No.

If the answer is No, I will be happy to state that adoption is unrelated to marriage law in Thailand and happy to admit an error based on a false assumption in my previous post. I don't pretend to be perfect or have absolute knowledge. So I am asking a QUESTION here.

Can someone answer definitively or not?

OK, this is what I could find about this so far.

It is targeted I think at foreigners looking to adopt Thai children but I think there is a lot of Thai law in this.

So far, this indicates to me that MARRIAGE (which is of course man-woman only in Thailand) is certainly mentioned and I feel it is implied that when a married couple adopts a child in Thailand, BOTH parents become legal parents of the child.

So if my assumptions are true, unless someone can post something definite in rebuttal, to state the potential Thai same sex civil unions will NOT grant the same rights as Thai marriages is still probably correct, and in my view, totally relevant to any discussion about Thai civil union law.

http://www.adoptinginthailand.com/about-thailand-adoption.htm

Applicants must be legally married.

Of course this is for standard adoption. As mentioned perhaps an exception is made for SINGLE PEOPLE in blood relative cases and also for disabled children, etc.

And no fatties too!

No severely overweight applicants.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Let me get this straight just for clarification.

A married couple in Thailand can or cannot adopt a child as a COUPLE with both the man and the woman BOTH being fully legally responsible parents to the adopted child?

Yes or No.

Yes - but so can an UNMARRIED couple, and they very often do, and any individual THAI, making your question pointless.

Your link is for INTERNATIONAL adoptions, specifically for AMERICAN applicants, based on the requirement that potential AMERICAN parents must be legally qualified to adopt in their own countries. It has NOTHING to do with marriage in Thailand or for Thais. It is for FOREIGNERS.

Adoption in Thailand is controlled by the Child Adoption Act of 1979, last updated in 2010, which can be read here ( http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/child-adoption-act.html ), in English, in full - Section 19 covers blood relatives. The words "marriage", "married" "husband" or "wife" or any of the other regulations relating to FOREIGNERS never appear nor are they ever implied.

PLEASE CAN WE STOP THIS IRRELEVANCE as well as these repeated requests to prove a negative (prove man has never been to Mars, etc).

[Jingthing]

I need more help understanding what you are trying to say.

I will break this down and try to discover the truth about this now in Thailand:

An unmarried couple, man and woman in Thailand -- can they adopt a child where BOTH are fully equal parents of the adopted child? Yes or No.

You SEEMED to imply yes in the above post, but I would like a clarification. If you don't actually know, that's fine too. Honesty is best.

An unmarried couple, SAME SEX in Thailand -- can they adopt a child where BOTH are fully equal parents of the adopted child? Yes or No.

These are not irrelevant questions (how equal or unequal a civil union law will be here) assuming the potential same sex civil union law in Thailand will NOT allow BOTH same sex parents to co-adopt children, which is a fair assumption as it's already been stated adoption changes will not be included.

It's already quite clear that a potential same sex civil union law in Thailand will NOT be offering something equal to marriage in Thailand. If people think seeking the details and scope of that inequality are irrelevant, sorry, that is simply not logical.

There does seem to be different levels to the law, the adoption of blood relatives and then there is adoption of non blood relatives. The questions I asked before would they be different for the non blood relatives? I reckon probably so.

In countries with civil union laws, the question of the rights of those civil union couples related to adoption and rights of parenthood for existing or future biological children (lesbians) is ALWAYS a question people are interested in.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been deleted. If you don't want to answer a question, then don't. There is no need to criticize people for asking.

Adoption might be off topic, but since this is a thread about something that 'Could' happen, rather than something that has happened, most everything in the thread is speculation.

[Jingthing]

Currently same sex couples have no legal status in Thailand.
It seems probable before too long, that same sex couples WILL have legal status in Thailand and almost definitely that status will be civil unions not marriage.

So when that happens will Thailand be among the nations where same sex couples can legally adopt as a COUPLE? Will any existing children of one or the other adult become a child of BOTH adults upon a civil union being performed? Based on the info presented so far, these advances in gay equality appear to not be in the cards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_adoption

[MrRealDeal]

Humans have to crawl before they walk most of the time .......... that's pretty much all you need to know to answer your above question ............ expecting different would be illogical based on the entire history of the human race

[Jingthing]

Humans have to crawl before they walk most of the time .......... that's pretty much all you need to know to answer your above question ............ expecting different would be illogical based on the entire history of the human race

Huh?

Some countries have gone directly from no same sex relationship legalization to FULL marriage equality with no transitory steps. So better look closer at your human history.

Not in Thailand though.

When civil unions come here, and they will someday, there is nothing wrong a lot right in being AWARE of what exactly the laws involve, including issues around adoption.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

MrRealDeal in his preaching mode. Observe and enjoy.

Regarding Thailand, I wish for the Thais whatever it is they wish for themselves. It's their country. But I favor honesty and openness in discussing what it is they might be doing.

So when they get civil unions here, and I think they will, if they don't provide real equality for same sex couples, then people shouldn't act like they do.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I am American. I care deeply about marriage equality in the USA. Again please stop with your virulent personal games.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[LeCharivari]

I'll try to answer the question on the connection, if any, between marriages, civil unions and adoptions another way since it still seems to be unclear and I can see that it could actually be misunderstood to someone who is seeking a "wiki" style cross or tick.

First, to get OVERSEAS adoptions of Thai children / adoptions by foreign couples out of the way. These are covered by SEPARATE regulations (which I have already covered and linked to) to domestic adoptions and they DO discriminate against foreign gay couples, married or not - they specify that adoptive parents must be married, and the parents must be male and female (one of each). As this could be the subject of a separate thread and has no connection with DOMESTIC adoptions, involving a Thai national, or with potential civil unions involving a Thai national I can see no point in going into THIS aspect any further.

Wiki is technically correct that same-sex couples have no adoption rights in Thailand, hence I can see the confusion if this is treated as a "yes/no" question, and neither will they do so under the proposed bill - neither, however, do opposite sex couples. Marriage (and civil unions, if passed) do not confer ANY adoption rights, nor is marriage a requirement for adoption.

All domestic adoption cases are judged on their own individual merits, as the Act describes, so a "gay couple" would be judged under the same merits as any other couple.

Have I ever heard of any gay couples who have adopted? No. Have I ever heard of any gay couples who have tried to adopt and been refused? No. That doesn't mean there have or haven't been any, but the question is moot here because acceptance or rejection may have nothing to do with the fact that they are gay - there is no "precedent" as that isn't a consideration here.

I know of two separate examples personally where two unmarried men have adopted a child where both men have equal parental rights - in neither case, admittedly, were they a "gay couple", or a "couple" at all, but they were deemed suitable "parents" and given equal rights. One of my farang neighbours some 20 years ago (when I had farang neighbours!) successfully adopted his stepdaughter (his Thai wife's natural daughter) and was given sole parental custody when they divorced (against his wife's wishes), as a single man; the only restriction was that he needed the court's permission to take her abroad.

The "blood relatives" difference is primarily about the initial stage of adoption when there is what is in effect a "trial" period - blood relatives are usually allowed to forego that trial period and the adoption can be formalised straightaway; blood relatives are also usually given priority over non-blood relatives, as with a divorce, but that is not always the case (see above). It really is an "on merit" system.

The question about "Will any existing children of one or the other adult become a child of BOTH adults upon a civil union being performed?" is also not really relevant, as this isn't automatic under Thai law when current marriages are performed either, as it depends on what the existing parent wants, so it wouldn't be included or automatic under proposed civil union legislation. Again, its judging Thai "marriage" by what "we" expect, and that simply isn't the case - one of the many reasons why, as has been said before, many Thais don't put as much stock in "marriage" as Westerners do, as it doesn't have the same cultural OR LEGAL meaning.

[Jingthing]

Thank you LC. A lot to digest there.

I would actually think we would need a Thai legal expert here to really address the legal details. That was some good information but a lot of it seemed to be based on personal experience, not actual expertise on Thai law. I hardly think one person's personal experience can really be relied upon on making grander conclusions about equality.

Not saying I would expect anyone posting here to be an expert on Thai law.

The real question boiled down which I don't really feel you have definitely answered is this:

Assuming a Thai civil union law passes with no mention of adoption changes in this new law, will these two same sex partners have the EXACT same legal rights as a married couple regarding ADOPTION rights. Yes or No. I don't feel based on that last post that you are really in a position of knowledge and authority to actually say yes.

That's fine of course. Nobody would expect you to have that level of authority and confidence on such a matter.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Troll posts removed.