Australia to Send Refugees to Papua New Guinea

[Sing_Sling]

From the government perspective it has always been a 'whites first and foremost' policy and I don't think that has changed until very recently. It is easier to sell immigration by 'fellow' Caucasians than Asian 'hordes' or now Muslim 'throngs'.

Immigration is certainly more palatable when you one can identify with the potential immigrants

No disagreement with you in your last section, Simple1.

My father was sent to Australia by his government in the 70s and left again five years later only to return for his retirement. I stayed for a while, then left and also returned . . . decided to stay until work took me overseas.

I would suggest there are quite a few around like me (maybe not the same circumstances, but all in all similar) and I have absolutely no problem with people trying to get into Australia to better themselves economically . . . even though earning capability is greater in many other countries . . . of course the method of entry is at debate.

[simple1]

From the government perspective it has always been a 'whites first and foremost' policy and I don't think that has changed until very recently. It is easier to sell immigration by 'fellow' Caucasians than Asian 'hordes' or now Muslim 'throngs'.

Immigration is certainly more palatable when you one can identify with the potential immigrants

No disagreement with you in your last section, Simple1.

My father was sent to Australia by his government in the 70s and left again five years later only to return for his retirement. I stayed for a while, then left and also returned . . . decided to stay until work took me overseas.

I would suggest there are quite a few around like me (maybe not the same circumstances, but all in all similar) and I have absolutely no problem with people trying to get into Australia to better themselves economically . . . even though earning capability is greater in many other countries . . . of course the method of entry is at debate.

off topic but I returned to the UK when I read about hippies and "free love" in London. Sounded good in comparison to, at that time, conservative Australia - was a great experience for 4 years or so.

[Will27]

Fly-in smuggle plan

People smugglers are concocting a new product to sell to asylum seekers: flying them into Australia on fake tourist visas to sidestep the harsh policies of both political parties aimed at people arriving on boats. Three groups of Iranian asylum seekers in the Indonesian province of West Java have said smugglers' agents have approached them in recent days with a plan that comes with a money-back guarantee.

For between $US15,000 ($16,350) and $US25,000 per person - three to five times the average boat fare - they will fly them from Indonesia to Thailand or Malaysia, then to Australia on a genuine but altered passport, probably from Europe.

The smugglers say their proposal avoids the Papua New Guinea solution and the opposition's temporary resettlement plan. Iranian Binai Abdu Samad said many people ''already came here [to Indonesia] with illegal passports … now a smuggler is saying, 'We'll prepare for you a tourist visa.'

''When you get to Australia, you cut the passport and go to immigration and say I am a refugee. They can't send you back then,'' he said. ''And you will get a lawyer with the smuggler's help.''

See Article Here

If the government was dinkum about trying to stop unauthorized arrivals, they would say "anyone who arrives in Australia without a visa will not be re-settled in Australia",and leave off the part about arriving by boat.

At least there are some measures in place to try and stop these people before they get on board the plane to Australia.

Although you're always going to some who slip through. So with the security measures and the cost, I would assume the numbers would drop significantly.

Also, with the cost rocketing up to $25 000US, we will be getting a better class of refugee anyway

Edited August 19, 2013 by Scott

[Will27]

The only real solution is for the Australian government is to provide a better deterrent ... to continue to try and stop the current stream of asylum seekers arriving by boat, reduce or remove their avenue to endless appeals and to become a less appealing destination.

You're correct David48, the govt needs to deter the people arriving.

A lot of people forget that the Howard govt had stopped the boats by using

harsh measures.

Then Rudd opened the floodgates and now is trying to close them.

[David48]

Just some fun from Clarke and Dawes ... who manage to take the 'P' no matter who is in Power (politically)

Jul 8, 2010

May 12, 2011

.

[David48]

Change of Government ... it doesn't stop.

Oct 25, 2013

.

[Will27]

Bob Carr has warned Labor "If you want to embrace the Greens-Left-Fairfax-ABC position, you are going to go backwards at the next election," he said, according to Labor sources quoted by The West Australian".

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/former-foreign-minister-bob-carr-warns-labor-to-stay-tough-on-refugees/story-fn59niix-1226740057690

I think Joe Average had had enough of the avalanche of arrivals and by the time Gillard & Rudd and Co

realized it, it was too little too late.

And also the predictable outcry over the Minister instructing departmental and detention centre staff to

publicly refer to asylum seekers as ‘‘illegal’’ arrivals and as ‘‘detainees’’, rather than as clients.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/minister-wants-boat-people-called-illegals-20131019-2vtl0.html

[David48]

I think this issue has a while to play out yet.

The latest report was that (from the radio, so no link), Malaysia is going to tighten the way they issue Visa to Iraq and Syria as more then halve of the refugees who seek asylum in Australia transit through Malaysia.

.

[BookMan]

Id be interested to know last months boat arrivals...and how many ended up in PNG

[Old Croc]

Id be interested to know last months boat arrivals...and how many ended up in PNG

There obviously wasn't any as no arrivals have been announced in the press.

And apparently the incoming Govt has fixed the horrendous budget deficit, as Joe the Banker is throwing $billions at the Reserve Bank.

[simple1]

Id be interested to know last months boat arrivals...and how many ended up in PNG

Current government policy not to provide operational info, but it is claimed in the media boat arrivals now reduced by about 90%

[Scott]

Thanks, Simple1, I was wondering about the reporting of arrivals. I worked in refugee services and with asylum seekers a long time ago in a number of areas and a lot of information was not available to the media. It was given when the agencies involved wanted to give it and it was sometimes quite selective.

The media could speculate, but until someone wanted to release the information, it was only speculation. Even when it was released, a number of facts were conveniently left out.

[samran]

Id be interested to know last months boat arrivals...and how many ended up in PNG

There obviously wasn't any as no arrivals have been announced in the press.

And apparently the incoming Govt has fixed the horrendous budget deficit, as Joe the Banker is throwing $billions at the Reserve Bank.

haha, yep, if you don't announce them then you can pretend they aren't arriving.

Sloppy Joe is giving the RBA money it doesn't need. Essentially buying up USD while the AUD is still strong, betting the AUD weakens. RBA is then forced to pay a dividend back to Treasury, helping the budget line.

While he is betting that the AUD will weaken, and it is probably a relatively safe bet, I don't like my Treasurers being currency speculators.

[samran]

Thanks, Simple1, I was wondering about the reporting of arrivals. I worked in refugee services and with asylum seekers a long time ago in a number of areas and a lot of information was not available to the media. It was given when the agencies involved wanted to give it and it was sometimes quite selective.

The media could speculate, but until someone wanted to release the information, it was only speculation. Even when it was released, a number of facts were conveniently left out.

Lots of people twittering the arrivals from Christmas Island.

[thaibeachlovers]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

[BookMan]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

How many do AUstralia take now?

[simple1]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

Under the UN Conventions the Australian government ratified and signed there is no such definition as an "illegal asylum seeker/refugee", no matter now they reached Australian territory, so how about rephrasing your question.

Illegal workers are a different matter and are primarily comprised of those who overstayed their visa or contravene visa conditions. The employers of over stayers are of course Australians who exploit them by paying below award rates, no super contributions, tax etc According to DIAC at any one time there are about 54,000 illegal over stayers many of whom are Westerners.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/86overstayers-and-other-unlawful-non-citizens.htm

[David48]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

Yes, I saw that as well and the boat illegals and now being sold on the destination of NewZealand.

Same Same as Australia they're told ... but unemployment is higher.

For me ... cargo containers = metal coffins and they would be nuts (no, not desperate ... nuts) to try that solution for their issue.

.

[thaibeachlovers]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

How many do AUstralia take now?

More than many Australians want to accept.

[thaibeachlovers]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

Under the UN Conventions the Australian government ratified and signed there is no such definition as an "illegal asylum seeker/refugee", no matter now they reached Australian territory, so how about rephrasing your question.

Illegal workers are a different matter and are primarily comprised of those who overstayed their visa or contravene visa conditions. The employers of over stayers are of course Australians who exploit them by paying below award rates, no super contributions, tax etc According to DIAC at any one time there are about 54,000 illegal over stayers many of whom are Westerners.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/86overstayers-and-other-unlawful-non-citizens.htm

If it's good enough for the Australian government to call them ILLEGALS, it's good enough for me.

This whole "Australia must take them is bogus anyway". A GENUINE refugee should be happy to stay in the first country they come to where they will not be killed, and it is well known that many if not most of the ILLEGALS want to go to Australia for the economic benefits.

How many GENUINE refugees can afford to pay the scum people smugglers? If someone is fleeing for their life, they don't have time to pop into the bank and arrange a loan first.

[thaibeachlovers]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

Yes, I saw that as well and the boat illegals and now being sold on the destination of NewZealand.

Same Same as Australia they're told ... but unemployment is higher.

For me ... cargo containers = metal coffins and they would be nuts (no, not desperate ... nuts) to try that solution for their issue.

.

It will be very interesting to see the reaction should hordes of aliens suddenly appear on the streets of Auckland.

[simple1]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

Under the UN Conventions the Australian government ratified and signed there is no such definition as an "illegal asylum seeker/refugee", no matter now they reached Australian territory, so how about rephrasing your question.

Illegal workers are a different matter and are primarily comprised of those who overstayed their visa or contravene visa conditions. The employers of over stayers are of course Australians who exploit them by paying below award rates, no super contributions, tax etc According to DIAC at any one time there are about 54,000 illegal over stayers many of whom are Westerners.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/86overstayers-and-other-unlawful-non-citizens.htm

If it's good enough for the Australian government to call them ILLEGALS, it's good enough for me.

This whole "Australia must take them is bogus anyway". A GENUINE refugee should be happy to stay in the first country they come to where they will not be killed, and it is well known that many if not most of the ILLEGALS want to go to Australia for the economic benefits.

How many GENUINE refugees can afford to pay the scum people smugglers? If someone is fleeing for their life, they don't have time to pop into the bank and arrange a loan first.

Thanks for clarifying your true agenda. It's only a small minority are assessed as economic refugees, not the majority. Sure they should really stay at the first country of entry e.g. Malaysia. As an example, that I believe applies to all the non Western first countries of entry, Malaysia has not signed and ratified the UN Convention for Refuges and are treated very poorly by Malaysian authorities. Monies for people smugglers are more often than not funded by selling family assets or using life savings. If you could be bothered all this info is easily accessable from creditable sources on the internet.

BTW populist Australian politicians and some media are using the term "illegals" knowing full well it is not a description supported by legislation and purely to appeal to a segment of the Australian public - assuming you are Australia - that clearly you belong to

Edited October 28, 2013 by simple1

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[samran]

According to Insiders this morning,the number of boat illegals has drastically fallen, as the word has got out in Indonesia about the current situation. However, the scum people smugglers are now selling space in cargo containers to Australia, and if that is successful, no doubt the death rate will increase significantly.

Just curious, but how many on here that support allowing more illegals into Australia would be prepared to a/ put some up in their own homes and b/ pay a lot more tax to provide them with welfare?

BTW, there are about 17 million refugees in the world. How many do the liberals on here think Australia should take?

Under the UN Conventions the Australian government ratified and signed there is no such definition as an "illegal asylum seeker/refugee", no matter now they reached Australian territory, so how about rephrasing your question.

Illegal workers are a different matter and are primarily comprised of those who overstayed their visa or contravene visa conditions. The employers of over stayers are of course Australians who exploit them by paying below award rates, no super contributions, tax etc According to DIAC at any one time there are about 54,000 illegal over stayers many of whom are Westerners.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/86overstayers-and-other-unlawful-non-citizens.htm

If it's good enough for the Australian government to call them ILLEGALS, it's good enough for me.

This whole "Australia must take them is bogus anyway". A GENUINE refugee should be happy to stay in the first country they come to where they will not be killed, and it is well known that many if not most of the ILLEGALS want to go to Australia for the economic benefits.

How many GENUINE refugees can afford to pay the scum people smugglers? If someone is fleeing for their life, they don't have time to pop into the bank and arrange a loan first.

Yeah, lets escape persecution only to sit in some craphole camp with no work rights and an intolerant attitude to refugee's. Lets see sit around and wait 15 years so my kids can grow up without proper schooling and no chance for my family to re-establish ourselves with a new life.

Plenty of Genuine refugee's can afford to pay, cause they've had family scrape the money together so that one can make it. It isn't rocket science. Also, since when did a refugee have to be poor? Plenty are, but also many are not.

Frankly, if someone has the balls and initative to make it to Australia, i want them. Any inital upfront costs of protecting them and setting themeves up will be more than repaid over time with energetic members of socitey. Happened with the Jews. Happened with Cambodians and Vietnamese.

And yes, to answer your simple simon question before about who would be willing to take them in....we have, dozens over the years in OZ. Sponsored them and families, gave them or helped them find jobs, settled. Great people. All great Australian citizens now.

Edited October 28, 2013 by samran

[BookMan]

Also, since when did a refugee have to be poor? Plenty are, but also many are not.

This is an interesting point you make. The most immediate image that comes to mind when the word refugee is mentioned is someone of no economic means escaping war or famine.

We forget that political environments can rapidly change in many countries and with this can come persecution of religious or ethnic minorities, even successful business minority groups

With this in mind it is logical that there would be genuine refugees with access to money.

[samran]

Also, since when did a refugee have to be poor? Plenty are, but also many are not.

This is an interesting point you make. The most immediate image that comes to mind when the word refugee is mentioned is someone of no economic means escaping war or famine.

We forget that political environments can rapidly change in many countries and with this can come persecution of religious or ethnic minorities, even successful business minority groups

With this in mind it is logical that there would be genuine refugees with access to money.

Indeed. But, as Paul Krugman noted recently, trying to debate on issues such as this with logic often makes the other side dig in harder, labeling them as 'queue jumpers' as if there was a queue to jump.

[David48]

Also, since when did a refugee have to be poor? Plenty are, but also many are not.

Actually, I was surprised to learn that a Refugee is defined as ... "a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster."

[Scott]

There are a lot of technicalities in determining a refugee. There are a lot of reasons for people leaving their home country, but the UNHCR usually uses this to determine if someone is a refugee:

A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.

People may leave because of war, violence, and natural disasters, but that does not mean they are a refugee. Many people flee a war zone, for example, and they are considered to be displaced people. Once the conflict is over some, if not all, will be able to return.

It is important to screen people to make sure they are genuine refugees. Those that are need to be afforded the protection of a foreign gov't. Those that aren't, should probably be returned to their home country as soon as it is possible and safe for them to do so.

[NxaiPan]

Also, since when did a refugee have to be poor? Plenty are, but also many are not.

Actually, I was surprised to learn that a Refugee is defined as ... "a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster."

Many of the refugees from Syria ending up in Jordanian camps or trying to cross into Italy are middle-class families looking for a safe place for their families and to restart their careers.

If you lived in Syria what would you do?

[NxaiPan]

There are a lot of technicalities in determining a refugee. There are a lot of reasons for people leaving their home country, but the UNHCR usually uses this to determine if someone is a refugee:

A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.

People may leave because of war, violence, and natural disasters, but that does not mean they are a refugee. Many people flee a war zone, for example, and they are considered to be displaced people. Once the conflict is over some, if not all, will be able to return.

It is important to screen people to make sure they are genuine refugees. Those that are need to be afforded the protection of a foreign gov't. Those that aren't, should probably be returned to their home country as soon as it is possible and safe for them to do so.

The normally used terminology for a forced migrant is an IDP ( Internally Displaced Person)if they move to a safer place within a country. If they cross an international boundary they become a refugee. Most refugees intend to return home but from examples such as Palestine, Afghanistan and Montserrat show that it is not necessarily what happens.