Could you have settled in Thailand without the help from a woman?

catweazle · July 26, 2013

Don't really know what to make of this question... In some way it is a downright stupid question to ask, since in life you always will need the help of other people, men AND women, and this regardless of where you might go and regardless of what your plans for life are. In another way it is a good question, especially as it focuses on Thailand. In discussions with fellow expats and wannabe expats I always come to the conclusion that Thailand is where it is today mainly because of the Thai women. I have been living and working with Thai employees in Thailand for 22 years now, experienced a lot of hardship and had to make a lot of compromises, throw old western thinking structures in the bin, etc.

What I have seen so far boils down to the fact that Thai women are the driving force here in Thailand - percentage-wise they have more intellect, work harder, are cleverer, more creative and versatile, and they adapt easier to unforeseen changes than their male counterparts. In regards to the topic question it would be downright wrong to simply focus on the sexual part, the prostitution and how easy it is to not be alone here in Thailand if you feel lonely. Another point is that most women in Thailand embrace their female role, whereas in the western world most women nowadays want to be hardcore businesswomen with no time for family, kids, or romance...

I have to admit that initially a woman was the reason for me to move to Thailand back then in '91, but once the first euphoria faded out, I realised that I want to spend the rest of my life here because I learned to love the land, the food, the people, the laissez faire attitude and the relative freedom one enjoys here on a daily basis. Of course, there are some black dots, like corruption, lack of safety issues, etc. but the good outweighs the bad by far. I would never, never, trade my life here for a life in Europe, and to answer your question, I am not arrogant and ignorant enough (unlike some other forum members here) to say that I could be where I am today without the help of my several former Thai girlfriends and (in the more mature stage of my stay here) my Thai wife. It took me about 12 years to find the right one though.

Ignore the comments in this thread where so called "experts" warn you of all the Thai women who are only out to rip you off and are in just for the money. Of course, we have a lot of rotten apples here and the girlie bar scene is probably the worst fishing ground to find a reliable life partner, but - man, just enjoy life and embrace and cherish all the good things that are waiting for you here. Follow your heart and your intuition, and welcome every setback as a lesson learned, stand up again and keep walking! Keep in mind that you will only make it here in Thailand when you have been all the way down, sitting in the deepest $3ite you can imagine, without a single Baht left in your account, just wondering "what just happened". Only the ones who manage to stand up again and again after each failure will make it here in Thailand. You will then find out that there are Thai woman out there willing to help you back onto your feet, knowing that you have absolutely nothing to give and they have nothing to gain but your love and friendship. I have seen it all - and everyone who calls me a dreamer after reading all this has not been where I have been, sitting in the grim reaper's lap and coming back to tell the story.

Last but not least - when you really want to make it here in Thailand, stay away from your fellow country men and "best (western) friends" since they most likely are the ones who will rip you off and fail you when you need them most.

All the best to you for your future ventures in Thailand.

I applaude you for the quality and human way of your comment. I do not agree a 100% with it, but it is written with a heart and knowlegde. My compliments again.

Dear Benalibina, your comment is greatly appreciated - thank you very much and all the best to you and your family.

F4UCorsair · July 26, 2013

I just showed up. Just like I did in several European cities. Got on just fine. Why would anyone need help from a woman or anyone for that matter? Maybe stay at home if you can't do it on your own.

I'm with you elektrified.

rayongchelsea · July 26, 2013

I have to say that I have been appaled at the lack of savvy by some of my own countrymen. They clearly could not have come to Thailand and settled here with a Thai surrogate Mummy, and even after many years of living here cannot speak more than two words of Thai, and now speak English as though they are auditioning for a role as a modern day Dalek in the next series of Dr. Who.

This should be nominated for the post of the year. It's really funny.

In humour there is a lot of truth..

Of course we all need help, but we need to help ourselves first..you must be self reliant, especially here in Thailand.You have got to have balls to survive happily here..

I have been here since I was 22 ( mostly).

Previously Married. Kid at international school. Properties in London and Bangkok.

Have made a successful career in Asia ( it is possible..) but I have also been scammed, had bad times..as is the way life is..even after 30plus years still find myself in court fighting a bad real estate deal..in this case I am relying on a very honest lawyer..just because I came here before most doesn't make me smarter or not need help..

We all need help at times..the sad part is that over the 30 years my level of trust which bordered on the naive when young has been lost...I probably need more help now!!

As a previous poster said, it is an absurd question to ask really..why just focus on the female..Would this question have been asked on any other forum..and supports my basic premise that most guys come today for the company..not a solid foundation on which to integrate and be self sufficient..do you need female help no..do the guys who generally come here now need female help yes..the need was there before the need to come to Thailand.

For me the explosion of the bar scene has ruined this country..it has damaged the perception of the Thai female and being a father of a daughter..what I perceived as fun and harmless when I first set foot on these shores when i ended up in hotel nana not having a clue..today has gone 360..Thailand is primarily about women..so maybe not such an absurd question to ask in a Thailand forum..the image and perception of Thai women is pervasive and so closely aligned with what individuals think of this country..unique..but to need their help as a criteria to live here successfully, that depends on the individual, if you are married have children of course because that is what being married is about and would be the case anywhere.

Just don't go marrying a surrogate looking dalek, as nicknick points out!! I will be smiling all day, that post has hit my funny bone!!

Bcgardener · July 26, 2013

My Thai wife and I had been married for 12 years before moving our factory here from Australia. I would have to say that from this perspective having her help with the complex paperwork required was a godsend. I could speak reasonable Thai when we moved here but zero reading or writing so having her explain various documents was a great help.

Other posters could say, you could have a lawyer do exactly the same thing but in the 6 years we have been here I have yet to meet one that I could really trust. Having my wife help, who has a financial interest in the business, was obviously far more preferable. And for all the doom and gloom TV posters who have been ripped off by their Thai GF, no she wouldn't rip me off here in Thailand , she is an Aussie citizen so she would rip me off in Australia, far more lucrative.

I still rely on a "women" to help me with the business here in Thailand but now it is my 16 year old daughter who does a far better job of translating documents than most of the so called "translators" I have tried.

lovetotravel · July 26, 2013

I just showed up. Just like I did in several European cities. Got on just fine. Why would anyone need help from a woman or anyone for that matter? Maybe stay at home if you can't do it on your own.

Europe isn't Thailand. At least you can immediately read the signs there, and probably know at least some of the words. Plus, English is widely spoken.

It also depends on what you are doing. If just cruising around, perhaps renting a place, you can easily get by here without any local help. Build a big house, have maids, cars, gardeners, pool guys, repair men for all the stuff that goes wrong with your house, etc., having somebody with a very good command of the local language is a HUGE help. Especially if you just moved here.

chrisinth · July 26, 2013

Don't really know what to make of this question... In some way it is a downright stupid question to ask, since in life you always will need the help of other people, men AND women, and this regardless of where you might go and regardless of what your plans for life are. In another way it is a good question, especially as it focuses on Thailand. In discussions with fellow expats and wannabe expats I always come to the conclusion that Thailand is where it is today mainly because of the Thai women. I have been living and working with Thai employees in Thailand for 22 years now, experienced a lot of hardship and had to make a lot of compromises, throw old western thinking structures in the bin, etc.

What I have seen so far boils down to the fact that Thai women are the driving force here in Thailand - percentage-wise they have more intellect, work harder, are cleverer, more creative and versatile, and they adapt easier to unforeseen changes than their male counterparts. In regards to the topic question it would be downright wrong to simply focus on the sexual part, the prostitution and how easy it is to not be alone here in Thailand if you feel lonely. Another point is that most women in Thailand embrace their female role, whereas in the western world most women nowadays want to be hardcore businesswomen with no time for family, kids, or romance...

I have to admit that initially a woman was the reason for me to move to Thailand back then in '91, but once the first euphoria faded out, I realised that I want to spend the rest of my life here because I learned to love the land, the food, the people, the laissez faire attitude and the relative freedom one enjoys here on a daily basis. Of course, there are some black dots, like corruption, lack of safety issues, etc. but the good outweighs the bad by far. I would never, never, trade my life here for a life in Europe, and to answer your question, I am not arrogant and ignorant enough (unlike some other forum members here) to say that I could be where I am today without the help of my several former Thai girlfriends and (in the more mature stage of my stay here) my Thai wife. It took me about 12 years to find the right one though.

Ignore the comments in this thread where so called "experts" warn you of all the Thai women who are only out to rip you off and are in just for the money. Of course, we have a lot of rotten apples here and the girlie bar scene is probably the worst fishing ground to find a reliable life partner, but - man, just enjoy life and embrace and cherish all the good things that are waiting for you here. Follow your heart and your intuition, and welcome every setback as a lesson learned, stand up again and keep walking! Keep in mind that you will only make it here in Thailand when you have been all the way down, sitting in the deepest $3ite you can imagine, without a single Baht left in your account, just wondering "what just happened". Only the ones who manage to stand up again and again after each failure will make it here in Thailand. You will then find out that there are Thai woman out there willing to help you back onto your feet, knowing that you have absolutely nothing to give and they have nothing to gain but your love and friendship. I have seen it all - and everyone who calls me a dreamer after reading all this has not been where I have been, sitting in the grim reaper's lap and coming back to tell the story.

Last but not least - when you really want to make it here in Thailand, stay away from your fellow country men and "best (western) friends" since they most likely are the ones who will rip you off and fail you when you need them most.

All the best to you for your future ventures in Thailand.

Excellent post Catweasle...................... Your observations and comments hit the mark and for the most part, image my adventures in this country.

mrtoad · July 26, 2013

I moved here 8 years ago. I have had numerous people help me settle in, Thai and Western. I have never been too proud to ask for help when I needed it. I've been very lucky, to meet some wonderful people. I've also met and had to deal with some at the other end of the spectrum. Been ripped off by foreigners too, and found some of the most jealous people to be Westerners who have become bitter about Thailand. As a few people have said, sometimes being broke adds a bit of humility, and I've been there to, wondering when the next baht will arrive, not nice. I've been lucky in that some of my friends here have been so supportive. I don't think I can attribute make or females to helping me settle, but I am thankful to those that have supported me through the good and the bad. I don't know if I have made a success of being here, time will tell on that one, but I have been given opportunities, have a good standard of living, a good job that I love and good friends , family and work colleagues. I am happy with that.

dighambara · July 26, 2013

I was recently thinking about this too.

I can't actually think of one situation where having a local girl acting as an intermediary for a foreigner is actually useful to the foreigner.

First, it stops you thinking for yourself and learning the language.

Second, they are always seeking personal gain from you (commission for them on everything at the very least, large ticket items put in their name at worst).

Third, all other Thais will assume the girl is/was a sex worker of some kind, so you will be socially disadvantaged (true or not doesn't matter).

Fourth, you are insulated from most of the reality of Thailand, so you are living a complete fantasy life.

Fifth, they will be a drag on your finances, the children that aren't yours are needy, the family hand is always stretched out.

Sixth, they are serving their own best interests, never yours.

Better for a foreigner to deal with things on their own and stand on their own two feet IMHO.

(When was your last holiday in the west where you had everything done for you be a local girl that left school at age 13?)

This is an extremely negative point of view and I suspect the writer is very unhappy with his choices.

Everyone always thinks for themselves.

I knew a little of the language when I decided to move here - before I met my wife.

As my wife doesn't speak English, it is difficult for anyone to think she was ever a sex worker.

In no way am I insulated, other then I have more income, just like my Thai neighbors, however, it is a bit of a fantasy life, as back home I would be a pauper, while here I have a very nice home and money to spend.

Marriage always produces a drag on finances and those stepchildren are also your children, so naturally you should provide the best life possible - the rest of the family can go to hell - except for emergency hospitalization.

Everyone always serves their own best interests.

Meaning, most of your tirade is complete BS...

villagefarang · July 26, 2013

While I have known people who were very fortunate in their choice of partner, I have met many more who were not. First off, one’s choices are limited if one doesn’t speak Thai and it is much more difficult to come to grips with who your partner really is, if communication is limited. One ends up relying heavily on luck.

If by chance you choose someone who is from the bottom rung of Thai society, then for the most part you are saddled with the same limitations she has. It may not seem fair but it is their society and they control the game, not you.

If you remain single for a while and venture outside of the bar life, it may be possible to meet Thais from different backgrounds. Having a hooker girlfriend would make that difficult to say the least.

By mingling with different strata of society you gain more knowledge, contacts and experience than you can by having everything filtered through the limited understanding of one person who is constrained by their place in society.

So of course I learned from the Thais I met, I was in my early twenties after all, and had little experience of my own to rely upon. The thing is, if I had hooked up with the first girl I met at that age, my life would have turned out very differently indeed.

Things were different back in the 70s when I moved here, and much of my life could not be replicated today, but I think many of the tales of woe we hear on TV come from putting the cart in front of the horse and being limited in all things by our choice of partner.

For those who seem to admire suffering and recovering from bad choices, I have had a very different experience. Good choices have led to no suffering and nothing to recover from. It is not easy but it can be done, even if it goes against the human tendency toward self-destructive behavior.

MILT · July 26, 2013

Easy answer for me. I would never have made Thailand my home if not for the help of the wife or her family and many other Thai friends that I have befriended over the years. This doesn't mean that If I wanted to make Thailand my home that I could not have adapted and made a go at living here myself. I just never had the chance. I appreciate every Thai person that has tripped over themselves to help me get along here making life much eaiser. I don't see it as an negative. I find that when people say that they don't/didn't need help from GF, wife. partner whatever to live and adjust here in Thailand is in IMHO in denial.

I thought it was a great post - right up to the last sentence; not only was it incredibly presumptuous, it is odd given that you say you if you wanted to make Thailand your home you could have adapted and made a go at living here myself - but no one else could?

I can see the misunderstanding, What I meant to say is that even though I could have adapted to live here alone in the end I would need the help from the Thai people, whatever our relationship might have been. I presume that would apply to anyone who claims otherwise. People need people to get things done. No one in the civilized world is fully independent right? Thanks for your comments!

GarryP · July 26, 2013

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

.
Maybe a new topic some day. I hope so.

How does a 19 year old immigrate to and remain in Thailand?

Same way anyone else might, I suppose. Visit and decide you want to stay, then work out how. (Immigration issues, work...the usual).

To be fair, my experience was probably fairly extraordinary and perhaps my choices were too. And it was a VERY different Thailand in 1982...

Bloody hell. You must be my doppelgänger. 19 years old, October 1982. Been here since then with only a 6 month interlude after 2 years.

BradinAsia · July 26, 2013

I was recently thinking about this too.

I can't actually think of one situation where having a local girl acting as an intermediary for a foreigner is actually useful to the foreigner.

First, it stops you thinking for yourself and learning the language.

Second, they are always seeking personal gain from you (commission for them on everything at the very least, large ticket items put in their name at worst).

Third, all other Thais will assume the girl is/was a sex worker of some kind, so you will be socially disadvantaged (true or not doesn't matter).

Fourth, you are insulated from most of the reality of Thailand, so you are living a complete fantasy life.

Fifth, they will be a drag on your finances, the children that aren't yours are needy, the family hand is always stretched out.

Sixth, they are serving their own best interests, never yours.

Better for a foreigner to deal with things on their own and stand on their own two feet IMHO.

(When was your last holiday in the west where you had everything done for you be a local girl that left school at age 13?)

If this describes your experience in Thailand, I can somewhat understand your frustration and negativity.

This seems to be the view of many expats here. But, it seems to me to be a largely self-inflicted problem.

I seriously doubt if anyone put a gun to your head and forced you to marry a scammer.

My experience is very different --

First, I studied Thai at the best language schools in Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

Second, my wife does not seek personal gain from me. Always asks me if she can buy something for

herself, even minor items. Does not like to waste money. More frugal than I am.

Third, we have never experienced any disdain as an international couple. Maybe because we are too

busy enjoying our life together and studying new things.

Fourth, we don't feel insulated in any way from reality. Folks who cannot accept Thai culture are very

likely to have this experience, but we don't have any of that.

Fifth, my wife maximizes and enhances our finances through thriftiness and ability to bargain prices.

Her family has never asked us for anything. If we take a gift to her Mom she feels kreng-jai.

Sixth, my wife is dedicated to our interests as a couple. We are as one heart.

How many in the West would marry a girl who dropped out of school at 13? Why would anyone do

that here? By the way, my wife has a computer science degree -- that probably makes a difference.

SteeleJoe · July 26, 2013

Easy answer for me. I would never have made Thailand my home if not for the help of the wife or her family and many other Thai friends that I have befriended over the years. This doesn't mean that If I wanted to make Thailand my home that I could not have adapted and made a go at living here myself. I just never had the chance. I appreciate every Thai person that has tripped over themselves to help me get along here making life much eaiser. I don't see it as an negative. I find that when people say that they don't/didn't need help from GF, wife. partner whatever to live and adjust here in Thailand is in IMHO in denial.
I thought it was a great post - right up to the last sentence; not only was it incredibly presumptuous, it is odd given that you say you if you wanted to make Thailand your home you could have adapted and made a go at living here myself - but no one else could?
I can see the misunderstanding, What I meant to say is that even though I could have adapted to live here alone in the end I would need the help from the Thai people, whatever our relationship might have been. I presume that would apply to anyone who claims otherwise. People need people to get things done. No one in the civilized world is fully independent right? Thanks for your comments!

To be fair, re-reading that first post, I see the last line in a slightly better light...

I think possibly - as is perfectly OK and almost inevitable - people have interpreted the OP in different ways and/or, consciously or not, replied to it in ways that don't actually apply directly. Unless of course I have totally misinterpreted it which is always possible...

To me it seemed to be not asking whether people have ever had help while living here or if such help has been significant or even essential. It seemed to me to be based on the assumption that people who settle here do so because of and/or with the reliance of a Thai woman with whom they are involved. Ian's when one speaks of the process of "settling", to me that means the initial challenges and changes one goes through to start a new life here - not the living one does once already settled.

I take as a given that everyone has some sort of help to one extent or another, as they go through life, as they would anywhere. And some of that help may have been indispensable or nearly so. But it didn't necessarily come from a Thai GF/wife and it wasn't necessarily a prerequisite to settling here.

By the way, I don't share the interest some seem to have in judging people based on whether they did it relatively more independently or were among those who happened to have a Thai partner when they decided to stay here and that partner provided significant or overwhelming help - a good partner would presumably do everything he/she could in such a situation and who wouldn't avail themselves of a trusted loving helpmate with the language skills, cultural knowledge, and contacts they would have?

But those who are defensive about it and feel they have to disparage people who assert they did it absent a partner, are being asinine.

SteeleJoe · July 26, 2013

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

.
Maybe a new topic some day. I hope so.

How does a 19 year old immigrate to and remain in Thailand?

Same way anyone else might, I suppose. Visit and decide you want to stay, then work out how. (Immigration issues, work...the usual).
To be fair, my experience was probably fairly extraordinary and perhaps my choices were too. And it was a VERY different Thailand in 1982...

Bloody hell. You must be my doppelgänger. 19 years old, October 1982. Been here since then with only a 6 month interlude after 2 years.

Wow, that just gave me a tiny chill....

My interlude was longer but a remarkably similar timeline.

catweazle · July 26, 2013

Don't really know what to make of this question... In some way it is a downright stupid question to ask, since in life you always will need the help of other people, men AND women, and this regardless of where you might go and regardless of what your plans for life are. In another way it is a good question, especially as it focuses on Thailand. In discussions with fellow expats and wannabe expats I always come to the conclusion that Thailand is where it is today mainly because of the Thai women. I have been living and working with Thai employees in Thailand for 22 years now, experienced a lot of hardship and had to make a lot of compromises, throw old western thinking structures in the bin, etc.

What I have seen so far boils down to the fact that Thai women are the driving force here in Thailand - percentage-wise they have more intellect, work harder, are cleverer, more creative and versatile, and they adapt easier to unforeseen changes than their male counterparts. In regards to the topic question it would be downright wrong to simply focus on the sexual part, the prostitution and how easy it is to not be alone here in Thailand if you feel lonely. Another point is that most women in Thailand embrace their female role, whereas in the western world most women nowadays want to be hardcore businesswomen with no time for family, kids, or romance...

I have to admit that initially a woman was the reason for me to move to Thailand back then in '91, but once the first euphoria faded out, I realised that I want to spend the rest of my life here because I learned to love the land, the food, the people, the laissez faire attitude and the relative freedom one enjoys here on a daily basis. Of course, there are some black dots, like corruption, lack of safety issues, etc. but the good outweighs the bad by far. I would never, never, trade my life here for a life in Europe, and to answer your question, I am not arrogant and ignorant enough (unlike some other forum members here) to say that I could be where I am today without the help of my several former Thai girlfriends and (in the more mature stage of my stay here) my Thai wife. It took me about 12 years to find the right one though.

Ignore the comments in this thread where so called "experts" warn you of all the Thai women who are only out to rip you off and are in just for the money. Of course, we have a lot of rotten apples here and the girlie bar scene is probably the worst fishing ground to find a reliable life partner, but - man, just enjoy life and embrace and cherish all the good things that are waiting for you here. Follow your heart and your intuition, and welcome every setback as a lesson learned, stand up again and keep walking! Keep in mind that you will only make it here in Thailand when you have been all the way down, sitting in the deepest $3ite you can imagine, without a single Baht left in your account, just wondering "what just happened". Only the ones who manage to stand up again and again after each failure will make it here in Thailand. You will then find out that there are Thai woman out there willing to help you back onto your feet, knowing that you have absolutely nothing to give and they have nothing to gain but your love and friendship. I have seen it all - and everyone who calls me a dreamer after reading all this has not been where I have been, sitting in the grim reaper's lap and coming back to tell the story.

Last but not least - when you really want to make it here in Thailand, stay away from your fellow country men and "best (western) friends" since they most likely are the ones who will rip you off and fail you when you need them most.

All the best to you for your future ventures in Thailand.

Excellent post Catweasle...................... Your observations and comments hit the mark and for the most part, image my adventures in this country.

Thank you, Chris, great to see that my post could counterbalance the usual Thai girl bashings that usually follow when topics like this one are discussed. Have a great weekend!

BradinAsia · July 26, 2013

The little contact I've had with Thai women, and I don't believe any of them have been hookers, ex or current, showed me that they were always on the take, secret commissions, most expensive options, etc. I expected a little humility. They always went for the biggest and best, restaurants, etc., things they would have never been in a position to afford themselves.

I wouldn't want any help from one if I was to settle there, and would probably prefer to hire rather than buy.

I have a foreigner friend here who has had very similar experiences to those you describe.

Certainly, I don't know your situation, but in my friend's case the problem is largely self-inflicted.

Instead of taking his time to find the right lady, as he would in the West, he looks for short-cuts.

He meets girls online and make his decision about meeting her largely on the basis of her looks.

I tried to tell him that his methodology is too risky -- too much like Russian roulette, but he doesn't

listen and has been scammed several times in the 5 months he's been here.

I don't know about Europeans, but a lot of my fellow countrymen have some strange idea that

the best way to find a girlfriend is to impress them with money. I made that mistake 50 years ago

when I first went overseas. Fortunately, I learned the hard way -- it's a huge mistake.

Using money to attract girls will attract mostly scammers. I've seen guys do this so many times

in so many countries. Some never seem to learn.

BradinAsia · July 26, 2013