American man killed in Krabi - son severely injured

[catweazle]

Statement of Bobby Carter the 3rd, son of the deceased.

"There is nothing that can justify the murder of my father.

He was there spending money that he didn't have to spend there .. he was just a customer who was leaving upset from a place he didn't feel gave him what he paid for..

The band then should of took a different roal as they didn't they followed my family outside the exit door where they where leaving (hello leaving out the EXIT door...)

He wasn't stabed inside the salon he was killed outsid on the sidewalk...

That means the band got off the stage and followed him outside (where again he was leaving) then got right up in his face and stabbed him

where also my stepmom was hit by a shotgun (which they fail to mention)

my brother tried to save my dad where then he was also stabbed in the arm...

I mean come on since when is it ok to kill your unhappy customer...This is so low ... that other news are making it seem like my dad went to this bar picked a fight with band members .. and then dragged them outside to be stabbed by the band...))

That's the way they make it seem... Hey its all about keeping it on the low so that the next family will still come to there stupid bar to sing with a stupid band who wants to get paid but not make the customer happy.. if it wasn't for tourist they would be begging for food from us... I mean how you going justify this..

Yes Bar+Beer+people= a night spot ..

Do you really think there are sober people spending money at a s*** hole of a place.. when your there you would want to relax and enjoy your Bday with your family ...

I cant believe this has happened... My dad gone because of ungreatful idiots..RIP dad I love you.."

As much as I can understand Bobbies anger and frustration as sad am I to read the swear words and accusations saying that Thais would be begging for food if there weren't tourists... Firstly, since this text is obviously out in the open, I fear that it makes things worse and will not help much to get justice served by a >Thai< court. Secondly, tourism in Thailand stands for a mere 6% of the country's GDP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Thailand ) so cut the crap saying that Thai people can't feed themselves if tourists stay away.

My sincerest condolences, but let's get real please!

Edited August 1, 2013 by catweazle

[brewsterbudgen]

I work as an entry clearance officer for an EU country's embassy. One thing I can share here is that I am almost always biased against visa applications lodged by Thai males. Rarely do I approve such applications, regardless of how many millions of baht they have on their bank accounts or rai of land they can show. Incidents like this very strongly reinforce my determination to keep this practice in place and to very carefully vet these people, lest they endanger the lives of those in my country. There is no place for "saving face" in my country.

The criteria is not just about satisfying the minimum eligibility conditions set on the Schengen visa protocol or entry clearance guidelines but more specifically (at least for me) the onus is on the applicants to show me that, in addition to the EU rules, they can demonstrate and prove that they are not what most Thai males are: infantile, thais-are-always-correct mentality, arrogant and fake.

What a horribly unprofessional officer you are.

Assuming he's not a troll, I would hope that Thai Immigration/Visa officials (male and female!) do not use such ridiculous sweeping generalisations about other nationalities when considering visas. A truly shocking attitude.

[SteeleJoe]

I have never seen a Thai man in a bar that I have felt needed an ass kicking. But I have seen many many many foriegners, sloshed to the gills and weened into a faults senese of security. And they push and push until they hit the trip-wire.

In sounds from the article that the Thai's did everything possible to avoid the confrontation including leaving their own gig.

Thai's in general arn't murders, well not for free anyway.

1) I have definitely seen Thais in fights who deserved an ass kicking (and I know for a fact my Thai friends agreed). In over 30 years, I've seen that more than a couple times...

2) The article does not say they tried to avoid the confrontation.

3) We have no way of knowing how accurate that article is.

4) Implying that Thais are generally not homicidal (except for pay) is absurd and in contradiction with the known facts.

[guru]

Is there a source which documents all the foreign murder? If it was started today and we took a look back in a year's time, I'm sure it would already be quite a substantial compilation.. Of course the embassies and consulates of respected nations know this already, so why aren't they doing more to protect the citizens of their homelands?

Here is a site that lists reported farang deaths with any available newspaper articles.

http://farangdeath.tumblr.com/

Mr Carter is the latest entry. RIP sir.

Edited August 1, 2013 by guru

[ALFREDO]

RIp Yank

I guess the thing to learn here is

DONT knock the Tip Box to the floor.

We are too lazy, stoned or drunk to pick it up but we will kill you

Lesson to be learned might be --

if you are an uncivilized brute who gets arrogant, obnoxious and violent

when drunk, best to stay in your own country -- so you don't contribute to

the problems in other countries.

Yes but we have now heard the other side of the story from the son, he was just trying to walk away and they followed him out the door! Who should we believe the 3 Thai guys or the son?

Those aren't the only choices.

Keep in mind that aside from the obvious and perfectly natural bias the son would be likely to have, it isn't clear that he was even there.

(And he never explicitly denies that his father was acting in a way that some would not tolerate, he merely characterizes it differently and feels it was within reason).

"...it isn't clear that he was even there. "

His injured brother, I believe, would not lie to him, if he was not there!

[SteeleJoe]

"...it isn't clear that he was even there. "

His injured brother, I believe, would not lie to him, if he was not there!

Why do you rule that out?

Besides, one needn't deliberately lie per se rather just tell a version that minimized any fault of your own and exaggerated the fault of others. Virtually everyone does that sometimes (consciously or not).

[mok199]

they can entaretain the other prison rats while they spend the next 40 years in the KOOK....they will be using the mouth organ....

[SteeleJoe]

they can entaretain the other prison rats while they spend the next 40 years in the KOOK....they will be using the mouth organ....

An oft repeated but mostly inaccurate perception: Thai prisons are grim in some ways but there isn't a lot of sexual assault.

[kirk0233]

My interprfetation of the events is the father and son were having a good time on vacation singing, perhaps believing the TAT advertisments of the land of smiles, and got carried away in their exuberance. The band was shamed that the the father and son took back their tip believing that they were being cheated out of their singing time since the band wanted to take a break. The father was killed after exiting the bar and the son was beaten becasue of taking back the tip or other publicly shaming offense.

If my understanding of the events is accurate, what hole in Thai culture allows revenge for a shaming offense to escalate to murder so easily? In part, I believe these problems are caused between foreigners and Thais from a mixing of cultures that have conflicting societal and personal values. Thai values are understood within an insulated Thai society. However, when interacting with westerners who have developed an indivualized value system that integrates values from many cultures the Thais are lost. They have little ability to undestand others whose value system is not based on a desire to avoid shame at all cost. Similarly, westerners are not informed of the insulated nature of thai society and absence of multicultural understanding or tolerance for values and behaviors that are not Thai. This ignorance can lead to misunderstanding and violence.

We are in their country and should try and understand where they are coming from,instead of pushing their buttons all the time.It is not up to them to understand us.If we want to get on we should try intergrating a bit.

I disagree. Wouldn't that attitude just maintain Thais ignorance of other cultures. Would ignorance of the rest of the world be a good for Thailand? Each of us can learn from other cultures. I see no reason Thais are not capable of understanding and profiting from the undestanding of other counties and cultures. Of course, guests to Thailand should make every effort to understand Thais as well.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and bad analogies have been removed as well as replies. Copy and pasted content of a forbidden news source was also removed, refresher needed by somebody on rule 31, find it here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[mok199]

as we see more and more of this type of behaviour from the ''peacefull thais''we realize they too have rage, it has built up pver the years of tourism and when it is unleashed it is ''fast and furious'',becuse when you fight one thai you end up fighting every thai in the area.....old scholl falangs know this...new ones dont .....as we now know the land of smiles is a term they have made up becuse thais smile at every thing...here a smile means nothing....

[Salapoo]

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

[SteeleJoe]

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

[Salapoo]

Anyone else notice that with many Thais they seem to have very deep inferiority complexes.

Their motorbike helmet was more expensive, and is much better than mine. Their motorbike which isn't present is much better and more expensive than mine. Their MP3 is higher tech than mine so is taken out and placed in front of me. etc etc.

Add alcohol and there's why drinking with Thai men is one of the seven deadly sins.

[Salapoo]

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

The difference being the policing and judicial processes of said 'evidence' and investigations.... Given Thailand... no, not like any place else at all unless you count banana republics.

What is more likely is that there will be claims of Thais and Thai culture being attacked, being made to lose face, and only defending themselves. If there are foreign witnesses (family) saying different there will probably be massive delays and postponements in order to make it impossible for them to be here, and the end being the Thais (police and judicials) siding with the Thais instead of finding them all liars due to the Westerners testimony.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Salapoo

[SteeleJoe]

Their motorbike helmet was more expensive, and is much better than mine. Their motorbike which isn't present is much better and more expensive than mine. Their MP3 is higher tech than mine so is taken out and placed in front of me. etc etc.

Hmmm...inferiority complex, you say? Pot vs Kettle?

[SteeleJoe]

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

The difference being the policing and judicial processes of said 'evidence' and investigations.... Given Thailand... no, not like any place else at all unless you count banana republics.

I refer only to your description and not to Thai law enforcement (for which I have very little regard - to say the least): if there is no evidence that it was anything other than self defense, then they should not be prosecuted and most likely wouldn't typically be in any western country.

[ALFREDO]

His injured brother, I believe, would not lie to him, if he was not there!

Why do you rule that out?

Besides, one needn't deliberately lie per se rather just tell a version that minimized any fault of your own and exaggerated the fault of others. Virtually everyone does that sometimes (consciously or not).

Because, I would not lie to my brother!

But whatever,

one had a weapon on him and the other one not and the killer used the weapon on an unarmed man!

The killer had not to follow the later dead man out of the Saloon, did not want to loose face?!

Remembers me to that case, from Phuket 2010, which has similarities, a Thai felt overpowered and reached for the knife and used it fatally!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/333944-german-tourist-stabbed-to-death-in-phuket/

The Outcome,

PHUKET'S sea eagles man had been sentenced to 13 years and four months' jail for killing the German expat!

Edited August 1, 2013 by ALFREDO

[transam]

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

The difference being the policing and judicial processes of said 'evidence' and investigations.... Given Thailand... no, not like any place else at all unless you count banana republics.

I refer only to your description and not to Thai law enforcement (for which I have very little regard - to say the least): if there is no evidence that it was anything other than self defense, then they should not be prosecuted and most likely wouldn't typically be in any western country.

So folk have a row and someone decides to use a weapon and it should not be heard in court in your opinion .

So the Brit who killed a marine should not be in court ?

[SteeleJoe]

His injured brother, I believe, would not lie to him, if he was not there!

Why do you rule that out?

Besides, one needn't deliberately lie per se rather just tell a version that minimized any fault of your own and exaggerated the fault of others. Virtually everyone does that sometimes (consciously or not).

Because, I would not lie to my brother!

But whatever,

one had a weapon on him and the other one not and the killer used the weapon on an unarmed man!

The killer had not to follow the later dead man out of the Saloon, did not want to loose face?!

Remembers me to that case, from Phuket 2010, which has similarities, a Thai felt overpowered and reached for the knife and used it fatally!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/333944-german-tourist-stabbed-to-death-in-phuket/

The Outcome, as I read it in a News source which should be named here,

"PHUKET'S sea eagles man has been sentenced to 13 years and four months' jail for killing a German expat resident last year in a fit of road rage,"

Hate to disillusion you but just because you would not do something doesn't mean that no one else would.

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

[SteeleJoe]

transam wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

Salapoo wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

Salapoo wrote:

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

The difference being the policing and judicial processes of said 'evidence' and investigations.... Given Thailand... no, not like any place else at all unless you count banana republics.

I refer only to your description and not to Thai law enforcement (for which I have very little regard - to say the least): if there is no evidence that it was anything other than self defense, then they should not be prosecuted and most likely wouldn't typically be in any western country.

So folk have a row and someone decides to use a weapon and it should not be heard in court in your opinion .

So the Brit who killed a marine should not be in court ?

Forgive me, I stated that badly. Rather than "prosecuted" perhaps I should have said "punished". In any case, IF it was a justifiable homicide and can be determined as such, or there is insufficient evidence to show that it isn't, I know that in the states such things don't always go to trial.

In any case, my point was that if there is no evidence of wrongdoing, then of course the Thais should not be punished - just as it would be elsewhere. I certainly never said or implied what you claim is my opinion. Not even close.

As for the killing of the Marine - that is an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[chooka]

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

What the prosecution needs is independent witnesses. The evidence of the son/s will be taken into consideration but is not considered strong. If the prosecution can find an independent witness/s to corroborate the family members then their evidence is very strong. Unfortunately I think there will be a lot of witnesses for the defence that will blow the evidence of the family apart.

The matter will still go to court and it is up to the court to decide if it is self defence and not the police (A person has died) If what is written in the OP is correct and there are no independent witnesses for the prosecution then I think the accused have a good chance.

Edited August 1, 2013 by chooka

[ALFREDO]

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

[SteeleJoe]

ALFREDO wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Look, I don't know what happened and I'm not interested in pretending I do or that we have enough verifiable information to make a judgement of who deserves how much blame. I have taken NO position on that and I'm not going to argue for or against any such position without that knowledge. I will however opine when I see people using less than logical or reasonable arguments for a position.

EDIT to Add: If I were obligated to make a judgement - which I thankfully am not - based on my decades of experience in Thailand and what has been reported, I'd be inclined to think that the Thais were guilty of manslaughter at the very least. That is a killing in the midst of a fight which they had an active role in and beyond mere self defense.

But I don't know that - and neither do you.

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

ALFREDO wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

EDIT TO ADD: Just read the article - thanks for the link.

It does not say the band followed them out. It does not say the killer was already armed.

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[bander]

I find it ridiculous how so many posters in this forum routinely take something like this and turn it into a 'Thai vs. farang' thing. This is a case of drunk people (note: people, not Thai or farang) getting involved in a stupid bar fight that escelated to a point where someone was tragically killed. I worked in the bar business for 10 years and have seen similar incidents happen many times; 99% of the time they have nothing to do with race and everything to do with boozy aggression. They usually don't end up with someone getting killed but they very well can - and do - anywhere in the world. Incredible: a bar fight breaks out and someone gets killed - let's blame it all on Thai society!

mmmmm . . . can't speak about the USA or other countries, but I don't remember that many people getting stabbed, beaten or killed in any bar fights in the UK.

And as we are in Thailand, and it involved Thai + foreigners, surely it is indeed a Thai vs Farang thing? Yes, it's stupid, yes, it involved alcohol, but do you not think that (in most instances) it's the Thai's generally that take things too far and overreact to most things with violence in these situations?

(and before you say it, yes I'm generalising and oversimplifying things, but I think it's appropriate here)

I never go into a bar if it's any thai man there, if any thai man show up after I arrive simply pay the bill and leave without any comment, this keeps me safe and out of trouble in Thailand

[ALFREDO]

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

Steele Joe,

offer the Thais to be their lawyer, I believe the brother and put you on my ignore list, I tired of you, sent you a PM with LINK.

The US man was by the way a well known business man.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/31/thailand-american-killed-karaoke/2606371/

"Bobby Ray Carter owned LED Cool Lights, an LED lighting manufacturers with offices in Dallas and China. He was a Dallas native and former executive with UPS, CBS DFW-TV said."

http://www.ledcoollights.com/

[SteeleJoe]

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

Steele Joe,

offer the Thais to be their lawyer, I believe the brother and put you on my ignore list, I tired of you, sent you a PM with LINK.

The US man was by the way a well known business man.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/31/thailand-american-killed-karaoke/2606371/

"Bobby Ray Carter owned LED Cool Lights, an LED lighting manufacturers with offices in Dallas and China. He was a Dallas native and former executive with UPS, CBS DFW-TV said."

http://www.ledcoollights.com/

Given that I've already said that I'm inclined to believe they are guilty of at least manslaughter, I'd not be likely to defend them...

And if you are so childish as to be unable to tolerate it when someone points, out in a perfectly civil manner, flaws in your argument then it is no loss to no longer have a discussion with you.

By the way, the fact that the deceased was "a well known business man" is of little or o relevance at this point. It certainly doesn't make the Thais more or less at fault, nor indicate that he was or wasn't at fault in any way.

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[ALFREDO]

no longer have a discussion with you.

Yes a solution

Keep it that way, thank you.

Edited August 1, 2013 by ALFREDO

[chooka]

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

Steele Joe,

offer the Thais to be their lawyer, I believe the brother and put you on my ignore list, I tired of you, sent you a PM with LINK.

The US man was by the way a well known business man.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/31/thailand-american-killed-karaoke/2606371/

"Bobby Ray Carter owned LED Cool Lights, an LED lighting manufacturers with offices in Dallas and China. He was a Dallas native and former executive with UPS, CBS DFW-TV said."

http://www.ledcoollights.com/

I have dealt with more than my fair share of intoxicated people. People from all backgrounds, business people, professionals, labourers you name it. Most very civilised decent people until they get the turps into them and then they change.

The victim may have been a successful business man and a good person. What I am saying is with some people booze creates Jekyll and Hyde