American man killed in Krabi - son severely injured

[SteeleJoe]

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

Steele Joe,

offer the Thais to be their lawyer, I believe the brother and put you on my ignore list, I tired of you, sent you a PM with LINK.

The US man was by the way a well known business man.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/31/thailand-american-killed-karaoke/2606371/

"Bobby Ray Carter owned LED Cool Lights, an LED lighting manufacturers with offices in Dallas and China. He was a Dallas native and former executive with UPS, CBS DFW-TV said."

http://www.ledcoollights.com/

I have dealt with more than my fair share of intoxicated people. People from all backgrounds, business people, professionals, labourers you name it. Most very civilised decent people until they get the turps into them and then they change.

The victim may have been a successful business man and a good person. What I am saying is with some people booze creates Jekyll and Hyde

Truth.

I spent a few years running bars but even if I hadn't, I could vouch for the fact that otherwise very nice and sensible people can become the exact opposite under the influence of alcohol.

I have no way of knowing whether that is true of the deceased.

Edited August 1, 2013 by metisdead
One nested post removed to solve messed up quoted post syndrome.

[Commander Tamson]

Land of Smiles ?!?

But what lies behind the smiles?

Land of Contradictions!

[bunnaag]

RIP to the American. Hope the karma will catch up on the killers. Scum of the earth. Farangs are getting killed nearly everyday in Thailand. Very frightening.

and the ones who dontg get killed come back again and again

[LivinginKata]

Off topic posts removed. Let's stay on this Krabi murder.

[jpeg]

This is INSANE ..... NO MERCY for those Thai jerks ... how can you kill for such infantile thing ... I guess they have nothing in the brain to react like this.

And there lies the question that folk must keep in mind. Forget the land of smiles, remember a different culture that takes a long time to take on board.

Years back we'd have pissed up tourists getting up on the stage at Easy Rider here on Phuket. The band members would just embarrass them off, smiling and pretending to dance with them, whatever. I hear the place has gone down hill same as everywhere now. What happened to the sabai attitude? Tourists getting offed left right and centre

[transam]

This is INSANE ..... NO MERCY for those Thai jerks ... how can you kill for such infantile thing ... I guess they have nothing in the brain to react like this.

And there lies the question that folk must keep in mind. Forget the land of smiles, remember a different culture that takes a long time to take on board.

Years back we'd have pissed up tourists getting up on the stage at Easy Rider here on Phuket. The band members would just embarrass them off, smiling and pretending to dance with them, whatever. I hear the place has gone down hill same as everywhere now. What happened to the sabai attitude? Tourists getting offed left right and centre

Perhaps the locals have more cash now and are taking over a little. I am sure if locals had even more cash the farang would be history, at the mo they are tolerated.

[monkeycountry]

I have one rule which i strictly follow. Never ever go into a bar used by Thais, no matter what, because there will be one for sure that has a knife or a gun and when a Thai gets drunk anything can happen.

Could not agree more, except you should specify it to "used by Thai men". Thai women rarely if ever bring guns and knives when going out.

[SCARLETIBIS1]

Let's see here. Thai guy with a gun shoots and kills unarmed farong in Niemenhamen bar; Thai cabbie uses a sword to kill an unarmed (except for the deadly cup of coffee) farong in Bangkok; Thai men stab and kill an unarmed farong in a karaoke bar. UM, yeah I think there is something to Thai society that says it's ok to kill farongs at will here.

Anyone know how many unarmed Thais have been killed by armed farong's lately?

[transam]

Let's see here. Thai guy with a gun shoots and kills unarmed farong in Niemenhamen bar; Thai cabbie uses a sword to kill an unarmed (except for the deadly cup of coffee) farong in Bangkok; Thai men stab and kill an unarmed farong in a karaoke bar. UM, yeah I think there is something to Thai society that says it's ok to kill farongs at will here.

Anyone know how many unarmed Thais have been killed by armed farong's lately?

Well yeh, food for thought. Problem is most farangs don't care about the face thing. Have a tussle and forget it, win or lose. Veeeeeeeery different here. Some don't care how they win or what with as long as their chums see they win. BUT, some farangs that have been here a while seem to follow the same way for some reason, think you know whom l mean, yeh, some are out walking the streets, in the words of Hill St. Blues. ''Lets be careful out there''.

[Lancelot]

Really sad that a human being lost his life over a minor disagreement.

Night club staff must realize that some times their customers will do stupid things, but then the customer is supporting that establishment with cash. Trouble makers can be managed with out murder or maiming.

Some folks want the money but don't want to deal with the problems.

They can't have it both ways...

[rayongchelsea]

Face has a lot to answer for !

[capt_canada42]

Thai males carry Knives and guns not all but most as other Thais males have the same its for protection

[capt_canada42]

They will kill you in a heart beat here ... I moved my umbrella at the beach the umbrella boy tried to kill me 30 years ago in Phuket .., these people are very up tight ...

[catweazle]

I have dealt with more than my fair share of intoxicated people. People from all backgrounds, business people, professionals, labourers you name it. Most very civilised decent people until they get the turps into them and then they change.

The victim may have been a successful business man and a good person. What I am saying is with some people booze creates Jekyll and Hyde

I would sign that!!! Had a few friends who would become completely different personalities once they were drunk. Mostly it happens when they move from beer to harder stuff, like whiskey, vodka or tequila. A ususally friendly and organized businessman suddenly turns into an aggressive a$$#ole that starts to argue and fight about minor disagreements. One of those "lose cannons" I just recently waved goodbye and don't really miss him in my selected circle of friends. To be honest, I have the feeling that this special kind of "Jekyll and Hyde" people are wearing a mask whenever sober and the mask comes off when they are intoxicated and lose control over their camouflage. I call those people double-faced and don't want to have anything to do with them, neither private, nor in business. For myself I can say that overall I still remain the same person even if I am completely $#itfaced, regardless of what kind of alcohol I had; I'd become a little more talkative and pull more jokes than usual, but that's about it. Once I meet my limit (still able to walk home without having a blackout), I get tired and just want to go to sleep. This would happen max. three to four times per year being a pure "party drinker". I just recently said to a friend, "If you want to meet the real person behind a man, make him/her drunk, real drunk." It is one of the best pieces of advise I can give to anyone.

Edited August 1, 2013 by catweazle

[BradinAsia]

Tragic outcome - when people behave like annoying , aggressive jerks ( ie by not getting off a stage), you have to figure that eventually they will get pay back ( but nonetheless, death is too much!)

Pay back, some payback? Thai's make a good living out of scamming tourists.

These guy's put money in the tip box and were invited to sing on stage; they were probably so pissed they thought they were paying to be part of the band for the rest of the night ! I'm sure the venue must have seen behaviour like this on many occassions, so staff should have dealt with them quickly by turfing them out onto the street and not getting into a fight around the back!

[lapd]

Like most things in Thailand people only seem to be getting one side of the story. The side of the Thai police, the Thais involved, the Thai witnesses. I'll bet if the sons story ever comes out it will be quite different.

The father was beaten/stabbed to death and the son beaten almost to death. How is that purely self defence by a group of Thais who clearly outnumbered these 2 guys? Read between the lines people. Regardless of what Father/son did or did not do I think it's obvious they were swarmed by a bunch of Thais. That is how it almost always happens. Anyone who has spent any time there and heard the stories knows that.

Doesn't matter what the father/son did to provoke it. I'm guessing not much because it doesn't seem to take much to set Thais off a lot of the time.

[sirchai]

Tragic outcome - when people behave like annoying , aggressive jerks ( ie by not getting off a stage), you have to figure that eventually they will get pay back ( but nonetheless, death is too much!)

With a knife ? Come on.

ANYONE can be removed from a stage without resorting to possible death.

Or being replaced by "nansum" guys like us, who can sing in English.

Truth is that many of them can't sing in English and the loss of face's worth to kill. They might fear to loose their jobs to foreigners.

Even locals can't differentiate between the different Smiles in The Land of Smiles any more.- Tears in heaven.-

Edited August 2, 2013 by sirchai

[TheRuckusinThaMai]

This is very sad, and hardening for me, because I'm an American. I was born, and raised in the US. I know that I'm married to a Thai woman, but I had to come back home to branch out for a job, and eventually go back to Thailand. After reading this story, I really don't know if we as Americans are safe in any place in Thailand now, and it makes me want to move me, the wife, stepson, parents and anyone else in our family who wish to come to travel out of there to come to the US to live free from harm in any state that we choose. A father was killed in front of his son, and that's only the devil walking around Thailand again peeking his ugly head into this. Okay, so the tip jar was knocked over, and they didn't want to get off stage when their time was up. Now, a Thai will be accused for taking the time of a man who was a father? That's no excuse to take a life. They better be glad that the tommy gun execution doesn't exist there anymore. It's very apauling, very dishonorable, and very disturbing. My thoughts, and prayers go out to the family who is devistated by this loss of a loved one. Very senseless. What can be done to stop all of this from happening ever again?

[LuckyLew]

This is INSANE ..... NO MERCY for those Thai jerks ... how can you kill for such infantile thing ... I guess they have nothing in the brain to react like this.

I guess yo believe in guilty until proven innocent

[Thai at Heart]

My interprfetation of the events is the father and son were having a good time on vacation singing, perhaps believing the TAT advertisments of the land of smiles, and got carried away in their exuberance. The band was shamed that the the father and son took back their tip believing that they were being cheated out of their singing time since the band wanted to take a break. The father was killed after exiting the bar and the son was beaten becasue of taking back the tip or other publicly shaming offense.

If my understanding of the events is accurate, what hole in Thai culture allows revenge for a shaming offense to escalate to murder so easily? In part, I believe these problems are caused between foreigners and Thais from a mixing of cultures that have conflicting societal and personal values. Thai values are understood within an insulated Thai society. However, when interacting with westerners who have developed an indivualized value system that integrates values from many cultures the Thais are lost. They have little ability to undestand others whose value system is not based on a desire to avoid shame at all cost. Similarly, westerners are not informed of the insulated nature of thai society and absence of multicultural understanding or tolerance for values and behaviors that are not Thai. This ignorance can lead to misunderstanding and violence.

Well, if it's acceptable form to follow and kill someone over something like this, I would say the problem lies on the Thai culture side. What social values allow the justification for this reaction? Face?

Avoiding shame by killing someone is probably verging on a psychosis. And yet there are people on here claiming, it's part of Thai culture. Does this mean that "face" is a psychotic idea?

There is no way to justify it, as anything but murder/manslaughter. This place is getting g further and further out of control.

[Thai at Heart]

This is very sad, and hardening for me, because I'm an American. I was born, and raised in the US. I know that I'm married to a Thai woman, but I had to come back home to branch out for a job, and eventually go back to Thailand. After reading this story, I really don't know if we as Americans are safe in any place in Thailand now, and it makes me want to move me, the wife, stepson, parents and anyone else in our family who wish to come to travel out of there to come to the US to live free from harm in any state that we choose. A father was killed in front of his son, and that's only the devil walking around Thailand again peeking his ugly head into this. Okay, so the tip jar was knocked over, and they didn't want to get off stage when their time was up. Now, a Thai will be accused for taking the time of a man who was a father? That's no excuse to take a life. They better be glad that the tommy gun execution doesn't exist there anymore. It's very apauling, very dishonorable, and very disturbing. My thoughts, and prayers go out to the family who is devistated by this loss of a loved one. Very senseless. What can be done to stop all of this from happening ever again?

Apparently, according to some on here nothing can and will be done. The rights of Thais to defend their "face" make this action understandable.

[brewsterbudgen]

This is very sad, and hardening for me, because I'm an American. I was born, and raised in the US. I know that I'm married to a Thai woman, but I had to come back home to branch out for a job, and eventually go back to Thailand. After reading this story, I really don't know if we as Americans are safe in any place in Thailand now, and it makes me want to move me, the wife, stepson, parents and anyone else in our family who wish to come to travel out of there to come to the US to live free from harm in any state that we choose. A father was killed in front of his son, and that's only the devil walking around Thailand again peeking his ugly head into this. Okay, so the tip jar was knocked over, and they didn't want to get off stage when their time was up. Now, a Thai will be accused for taking the time of a man who was a father? That's no excuse to take a life. They better be glad that the tommy gun execution doesn't exist there anymore. It's very apauling, very dishonorable, and very disturbing. My thoughts, and prayers go out to the family who is devistated by this loss of a loved one. Very senseless. What can be done to stop all of this from happening ever again?

Do you really believe you would be safer in the USA? I'm British and I feel far safer living here in Bangkok than I did when I lived in London. Random muggings, using knives or guns, are still relatively rare here, and that is the typr of crime most people fear.

[kirk0233]

My interprfetation of the events is the father and son were having a good time on vacation singing, perhaps believing the TAT advertisments of the land of smiles, and got carried away in their exuberance. The band was shamed that the the father and son took back their tip believing that they were being cheated out of their singing time since the band wanted to take a break. The father was killed after exiting the bar and the son was beaten becasue of taking back the tip or other publicly shaming offense.

If my understanding of the events is accurate, what hole in Thai culture allows revenge for a shaming offense to escalate to murder so easily? In part, I believe these problems are caused between foreigners and Thais from a mixing of cultures that have conflicting societal and personal values. Thai values are understood within an insulated Thai society. However, when interacting with westerners who have developed an indivualized value system that integrates values from many cultures the Thais are lost. They have little ability to undestand others whose value system is not based on a desire to avoid shame at all cost. Similarly, westerners are not informed of the insulated nature of thai society and absence of multicultural understanding or tolerance for values and behaviors that are not Thai. This ignorance can lead to misunderstanding and violence.

Well, if it's acceptable form to follow and kill someone over something like this, I would say the problem lies on the Thai culture side. What social values allow the justification for this reaction? Face?

Avoiding shame by killing someone is probably verging on a psychosis. And yet there are people on here claiming, it's part of Thai culture. Does this mean that "face" is a psychotic idea?

There is no way to justify it, as anything but murder/manslaughter. This place is getting g further and further out of control.

I don't believe it is avoidance of but revenge for shame that is the problem. Shame is the principle element of social control here as opposed to guilt in western society. Socialization through shame occurs at an early age with the mother as primary agent and fear of abandonment by mother and group the consequence for violation of dictates. I think the response is a type of psychosis, a rage where the target in actuality were the tourists, but psychologically the revenge was meted out to all past sources of shame, especially the mother whose response to disobedience or failure to meet expectations was contempt and potential abandonment; all very traumatizing at an early age and retraumatizing in confrontations like this - hence the smile by the Thai to ward off confrontation and violence.

[bkkfaranguy]

This is very sad, and hardening for me, because I'm an American. I was born, and raised in the US. I know that I'm married to a Thai woman, but I had to come back home to branch out for a job, and eventually go back to Thailand. After reading this story, I really don't know if we as Americans are safe in any place in Thailand now, and it makes me want to move me, the wife, stepson, parents and anyone else in our family who wish to come to travel out of there to come to the US to live free from harm in any state that we choose. A father was killed in front of his son, and that's only the devil walking around Thailand again peeking his ugly head into this. Okay, so the tip jar was knocked over, and they didn't want to get off stage when their time was up. Now, a Thai will be accused for taking the time of a man who was a father? That's no excuse to take a life. They better be glad that the tommy gun execution doesn't exist there anymore. It's very apauling, very dishonorable, and very disturbing. My thoughts, and prayers go out to the family who is devistated by this loss of a loved one. Very senseless. What can be done to stop all of this from happening ever again?

Apparently, according to some on here nothing can and will be done. The rights of Thais to defend their "face" make this action understandable.

So since face is part of the culture here and its acceptable to off someone, I would say the son has no lost face not bing able to protect his father, thus justification to off the 3 that murdered his father. His father was a wealthy businessman I wonder if he knows for very little money he could accomplish this and save face!

[kurnell]

Incidents like this are nothing to do with face. If a Thai boy loses face in front of a young, fit, obviously strong farang/Thai/Chinese, and he has no gun/knife/friends to support him then he will do what all cowardly Thai men do and sit there, shut up and do nothing, likely until; he goes somewhere else where he can find an easy target like his girlfriend or a handy dog to kick. This is the way they are brought up, i.e. no morals, spoilt by their equally morally corrupt parents.

I cannot relate at all to this sort of "culture" and that is why I don't have any Thai male friends, and probably why most expats don't either. I know all Thai men are not like this but obviously a lot are. A higher percentage than any other country I have ever been to, and these sorts of frequent, pathetic violent incidents support my opinion. If Thailand wanted to stamp this out, they could but unfortunately the people that should be enforcing this are the same as the criminals that kill farangs.

[TexasRanger]

People insinuating the U.K. or USA are safer than Thailand need a reality check.

In the U.K. you can get punched for just looking at someone the wrong way.

The problem isn't so much geographical, but drugs, drink and lack of discipline ar the real issues.

Discipline starts at home but needs enforcement, do you see much of this behaviour in Singapore?

[Thai at Heart]

My interprfetation of the events is the father and son were having a good time on vacation singing, perhaps believing the TAT advertisments of the land of smiles, and got carried away in their exuberance. The band was shamed that the the father and son took back their tip believing that they were being cheated out of their singing time since the band wanted to take a break. The father was killed after exiting the bar and the son was beaten becasue of taking back the tip or other publicly shaming offense.

If my understanding of the events is accurate, what hole in Thai culture allows revenge for a shaming offense to escalate to murder so easily? In part, I believe these problems are caused between foreigners and Thais from a mixing of cultures that have conflicting societal and personal values. Thai values are understood within an insulated Thai society. However, when interacting with westerners who have developed an indivualized value system that integrates values from many cultures the Thais are lost. They have little ability to undestand others whose value system is not based on a desire to avoid shame at all cost. Similarly, westerners are not informed of the insulated nature of thai society and absence of multicultural understanding or tolerance for values and behaviors that are not Thai. This ignorance can lead to misunderstanding and violence.

Well, if it's acceptable form to follow and kill someone over something like this, I would say the problem lies on the Thai culture side. What social values allow the justification for this reaction? Face?

Avoiding shame by killing someone is probably verging on a psychosis. And yet there are people on here claiming, it's part of Thai culture. Does this mean that "face" is a psychotic idea?

There is no way to justify it, as anything but murder/manslaughter. This place is getting g further and further out of control.

I don't believe it is avoidance of but revenge for shame that is the problem. Shame is the principle element of social control here as opposed to guilt in western society. Socialization through shame occurs at an early age with the mother as primary agent and fear of abandonment by mother and group the consequence for violation of dictates. I think the response is a type of psychosis, a rage where the target in actuality were the tourists, but psychologically the revenge was meted out to all past sources of shame, especially the mother whose response to disobedience or failure to meet expectations was contempt and potential abandonment; all very traumatizing at an early age and retraumatizing in confrontations like this - hence the smile by the Thai to ward off confrontation and violence.

I think there is a disconnect with reality when people snap here. The level of retribution for a small slight.

Maybe it's anti foreigner, maybe it's just rage at losing face. How about the guy who shot someone over sauce for his chicken? Tension is rising here, why I can't understand.

[Ben9]

This kind of stuff happens all around the world, everyday and Thailand is not even closed to leading the pack.

No fighting in pubs in the UK. Ever been to Ireland? It's a national pasttime. And they take it wherever they go. Good fun!!

You add the alcohol and you throw in the improbability factor. everywhere. (Nick named the "demen Rum)". Add an overbearing ego and your spinning into the sun with that individual's drunken insanity leading the parade and the fun is over.

. Yesterday, In Ft Lauderdale two huge bouncers (add steroids too) just beat the crap out of two guys for returning a drink to the bar. Cops arrested the bloody broken vitcims of course but a video was taken showing an unprovoked, defensless ass kicking by the bouncers.as the guys tried to leave. asian looking guy. Possibly Thai, took the video.

Typical police work here.

Everywhere I have ever lived a certain majority of the ex-pats who left their country and choose" to live in their" new paradise"usually for the LBFM's and constant party. Then they Gripe, and Piss and Moan about the locals whose country they invaded and the political situation and how the people the came to exploit are exploiting them. Yet they stay for the LBFM's .

Some folks will never be happy no matter where they go because they always pack themselves. And,. No matter where you go. There YOU ARE seeing your reflection and attitudes no matter how far you go. Must be that other guys fault cause look, he's worse the me. Right?? No??? Maybe???____ Not!.

Although I agree with most your post, The Fighting Irish thing is a Cultural Stereotype which is untrue. I'm Irish I'm not into fighting, absolutely none of my family and friends are, or anyone I Know I can think of either. A good example would be Irish Football fans travelling to major tournaments abroad. how many instances of Hooliganism do you hear of involving Irish "who take it wherever they go"? Absolutely none. (Fans of tournament at last Euros). It is a part of the traveler community culture, a much maligned ethnic minority group,but Its not a national past time. That's nonsense, just like the people on here saying All Thai Males are violent, All Thais hate Farang etc etc It's an assumption based on what they heard and not on fact,

Edited August 3, 2013 by Ben9

[marstons]

People insinuating the U.K. or USA are safer than Thailand need a reality check.

In the U.K. you can get punched for just looking at someone the wrong way.

The problem isn't so much geographical, but drugs, drink and lack of discipline ar the real issues.

Discipline starts at home but needs enforcement, do you see much of this behaviour in Singapore?

as a comparison a punch to being killed hardly comparable UK has less than 20 murders by shooting per yer compared with thousands here.

[LivinginKata]

as a comparison a punch to being killed hardly comparable UK has less than 20 murders by shooting per yer compared with thousands here.

Let's not confuse this particular murder with shootings. There was no shooting here.