Thailand and the Vietnam War

[Minpin]

Great topic, Pity not more like it on TV. Regarding mods keeping the clowns away I think the reason is more down to a sub topic with Thailand and history in the same title.

Back to the topic.

In 1983 I rented a house in Pattaya which was on Pattaya north road situated in the countryside then.

it was in a compound with 20? houses. All houses were the same. No plots, no fences, only grass between houses. All two bedrooms upstairs and bathroom,living room and kitchen in alcove downstairs. The houses were OK but the rest of the facility was in total disrepair.

There was a large swimming pool falling apart, What looked like it could have been a cinema, a shop (PX) and a bowling alley

Nobody knew the history. On investgating the best stories I got was that it was the officers married quarters for U Tapoa or the B52 pilots quarters. Of course they would probably have been officers anyway.

Would they really have stayed that far off base

Hoping the people here can clear this mystery for me

[DogNo1]

Hi blether! Any insight into that Thai marching style. I'm curious and haven't found any info regarding that peculiar swing of the right arm. And the colors of the uniforms of various units were unlike anything I've ever seen. Nice parade though.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[theblether]

Hi blether! Any insight into that Thai marching style. I'm curious and haven't found any info regarding that peculiar swing of the right arm. And the colors of the uniforms of various units were unlike anything I've ever seen. Nice parade though.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I can't find that clip DogNo1......can you repost here so I can go tracking for more please

[scotinsiam]

Thanyaburimac, I have friends fathers here in Australia who served in Vietnam. 1 in particular has real trouble with Asians in general since the war particularly the Vietnamese here in Australia, let alone living in SE Asia. Now I assume you live in Thailand mac?I'm curious, What made you come to the decision to live there? I know Thailand isn't Vietnam and war affects everyone differently, but I would of thought living far away as possible from the place that would seem to remind you of the war and I know Thailand was an r and r location, to me it seems like the last place I would want to live besides Vietnam itself. Doesn't it remind you of the war?

In fact this question I'd like to put out there to anyone that is in the same situation...

Letting go of the past is the only way to enjoy what is going on right now. Just because something was true then doesnt mean it is true now. Wouldnt the best way to "win" to be to turn your attention to something productive now?

"...the 2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app (Galaxy Note 2).

Im curious why they have problems with Asians? I mean it's not like Vietnamese people came into their country and bombed and murdered them for no reason is it?

[SinglePot]

yep. Good question scotinsiam.

I also would be interested in a cogent reply from krisb.

However, I wouldn't hold your breath.

[klikster]

"I have friends fathers here in Australia who served in Vietnam. 1 in particular has real trouble with Asians in general since the war particularly the Vietnamese here in Australia, let alone living in SE Asia. Now I assume you live in Thailand mac?I'm curious, What made you come to the decision to live there? I know Thailand isn't Vietnam and war affects everyone differently, but I would of thought living far away as possible from the place that would seem to remind you of the war and I know Thailand was an r and r location, to me it seems like the last place I would want to live besides Vietnam itself. Doesn't it remind you of the war?

In fact this question I'd like to put out there to anyone that is in the same situation..."

I guess I'm in a pretty similar situation .. so ..

It is probably an individual thing. For a few years after I went back to civilian life I wanted nothing to do with any Vietnamese. But time has a way of putting past prejudices in perspective. In the late '70's I had a small metal fabrication shop in Orange County, California. Probably more Vietnamese per capita live in OC (Little Saigon) than anywhere outside Vietnam. I hired a number of Vietnamese. They made good workers.

At the end of the day, you realize that most wars start with politicians lying to their citizenry. "Regular" people like me and like most Vietnamese were just pawns in their great chess match. Some pawns did heroic things, some merely survived, far too many died.

No reason I can think of to keep hating the Vietnamese.

Lying politicians -- that's a different story.

[DogNo1]

Hi blether. I just can't find the clip of the Thai soldiers marching. It appeared on a YouTube page that appeared after a clip about the Thai King ended. I'll send you the link if I can find it again. Thanks.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Well, here's one:

Mac

[DogNo1]

Thanks, Mac. That is the video I was looking for. I can't be sure, but it seems to me that the troops swing their right arms naturally at the beginning when they march onto the field, then adopt that right arm swing to the rear as they are passing in review, I am assuming in front of the King. I never worked with the Thai military so I don't know their parade style but for American troops passing in front of the review stand, it would be "eyes right" until they were clear of the reviewing dignitary. Blether, I'd appreciate any insight you have into this.

[DogNo1]

BTW, in case anyone's interested, the march that the massed Thai Band played at the beginning was John Phillip Sousa's National Emblem, then they apparently switched to the march especially written for the King.

[LungKen]

Please keep this thread open and going... I now live here in Thailand and was in the War as well '69-75 and have returned here to do some more as well...Thank you vary much

[klikster]

Just got this in an email -- fits the topic pretty well

"As you well know LTC ® Johnny Raymond took the first SF Team into Thailand 1954, has there be any talk about some event in his honor? Johnny is doing AOK and lost a leg to diabetes but still full of piss & vinegar, he’ll be 85 this December."

I think this is being done at Lop Buri

[bimbim0302]

Is really very great share. I do not know anything about the history of this period. But you have to war and he is very proud of the tradition of the two countries Thailand and Vietnam.

[pmarlin]

Thanks, this has been great and brought back some great memories. After 18 months in Vietnam and a short break at Ft. Hood I was stationed in Thailand 1970-74. About six months with the 83rd RRSOU in Bangkok, 2 month TDY at Camp Friendship Korat, A year with the 7th RRFS in Udorm and the rest of my tour with USASUPTHAI Bangkok Detachment. I was a young Army Staff Sergeant then and went on to do a 30 year career and retire as a Command Sergeant Major. This site might be of interest to some.http://www.83rdrrsou.org/ lot of pictures

[ginglee]

Brilliant post- Keep them coming...

[mike2011]

For those who are interested in the events in the Petchabun Mountains, you will find more info when you visit the museum at Mae Salong near Mae Sai/Chiang Rai. The Chinese Kuomindang units from Mae Salong took part in those clashes. Lots of maps etc.

Perhaps more interesting is the Vietnamese village near Nakhon Panom. Ho Tchi Min lived there in the 1920s. The current caretaker of the house is a member of the party and willingly shares - some - details about the Vietnam War. Apparently, almost all local Vietnamese families lost members on the battle fields. They volunteered - one son of the owner of N.P. biggest died that way. According to the old man the same held true for the communities in Nongkai and Udon. This would match with the earlier postings about the bases there. An important aspect of their work was intelligence gahering - probably in the bars as well. Moreover, Thailand was a sort of safe passage with couriers walking down to Ubon and re-entering the immediate theatres of war. The man made also a distinction between the activities of the Vietnamese CP and that of Thailand. So these were entirely separate entities.

The Vietnamese CP or what would become the VCP was active in Thailand since the early 1920s or before. It was their base in the struggle against the French.

Following the official recognition of Nakhon Panom's Vietnamese and Ho Tchi Minh links during the recent reign of Taksin, the not so great, it seems that people are more willing to talk about these things, provided that they sense that the other side is not hostile and on the right side.

I stumbled regularly over anecdotes about the Vietnam War and the Khmer Rouge terror in Isaan once I got to know the people a bit and within a family context during visits.

I cant express properly my deep impression those farm boys made on me who left their rice fields to walk a long distance and then confront the most powerful war machine of the time. Few of the survivors returned. Almost all remained in Vietnam according to the old man but contacts remain. From those sentences I gather that a lot of the Vietnamese of the area were exiles from French colonial rule.

[sunshine51]

Here's a great link to Christmas In Vietnam from vietvet.org website.

Vets from all countries are welcome. Have a look when you can.

http://www.vietvet.org/xmastime.htm

[sunshine51]

Here's another link concerning those who served in TLC (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia)

http://www.vietvet.org/thailaca.htm

Happy Holidays people.

nb...edit to change an "s" to a "d"...

Edited December 28, 2013 by sunshine51

[simple1]

UK SAS trained Thai Special forces, amongst other activities. Details of UK involvement in the Vietnam War at:

http://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/lunchtime-lectures/video-archive/jungle-too-far-britain-vietnam-war

[ChiefBEM]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

" ..... back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars ..."

Ubon was not "surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars" in the late 60s/early 70s.

Out side the main gate was a small bar/restraunt but no Gulies.

There was the Thai Night Club, where the Thais went, out by the bowling alley.

A couple of other really small places.

The main bar area had the Cosair Club, the Fairlane, the Jaguar, and the Seesaw.

A bit further down the road was a bar that the blacks considered theirs.

They were so close together, you could stand in the road and hit all of them with rocks.

That area was a mile or so from the main gate of Ubon RTAFB.

[Nignoy]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

" ..... back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars ..."

Ubon was not "surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars" in the late 60s/early 70s.

Out side the main gate was a small bar/restraunt but no Gulies.

There was the Thai Night Club, where the Thais went, out by the bowling alley.

A couple of other really small places.

The main bar area had the Cosair Club, the Fairlane, the Jaguar, and the Seesaw.

A bit further down the road was a bar that the blacks considered theirs.

They were so close together, you could stand in the road and hit all of them with rocks.

That area was a mile or so from the main gate of Ubon RTAFB.

Kin ell!! I must have been dreaming on my many visits to Ubon between 63 and 66, there were at last 20 girly bars in down town ubon,the American MPs got a few hidings trying to make Fijian,samoan and maori mates go to the negro bars ,the snowdrops couldn't understand that was the way English troops socialise,Korat was worse ,the racial discrimination there was disgusting!!

[Ajaan]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

" ..... back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars ..."

Ubon was not "surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars" in the late 60s/early 70s.

Out side the main gate was a small bar/restraunt but no Gulies.

There was the Thai Night Club, where the Thais went, out by the bowling alley.

A couple of other really small places.

The main bar area had the Cosair Club, the Fairlane, the Jaguar, and the Seesaw.

A bit further down the road was a bar that the blacks considered theirs.

They were so close together, you could stand in the road and hit all of them with rocks.

That area was a mile or so from the main gate of Ubon RTAFB.

Kin ell!! I must have been dreaming on my many visits to Ubon between 63 and 66, there were at last 20 girly bars in down town ubon,the American MPs got a few hidings trying to make Fijian,samoan and maori mates go to the negro bars ,the snowdrops couldn't understand that was the way English troops socialise,Korat was worse ,the racial discrimination there was disgusting!!

Haha, memory really is a subjective (and often hazy) "thing," isn't it?! Though knowing what I know about human nature, male nature (desire for pussy) and Thai nature (desire to get as much money out of farang as possible), I'm inclined to believe that my Ubon informant and Nignoy's memories are more accurate than ChiefBEM's, haha...

[harrry]

yep. Good question scotinsiam.

I also would be interested in a cogent reply from krisb.

However, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Many older people do have a problem with asians particuarly the Japanese people. Remember Britain abandoned all the Australians in Singapore and Malaya and they ended up handed over to the japanese POW system...not a fine situation, Same occured to many others in the war.

With the vietnam war australia did accept a lot of Vietnamese, It was a shaky relationship at first but many of them became successful and well accepted. Their children however were caught between two cultures and many had problems adjusting and their behavior was not acceptible to many of the older gerneration of Vietnamese and many other Australians.

I would say a very small majority hate the asian people though I do know that many who had members of their family in the Japanese POW system will never forgive the Japanese.

Edited December 31, 2013 by harrry

[Nignoy]

UK SAS trained Thai Special forces, amongst other activities. Details of UK involvement in the Vietnam War at:

http://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/lunchtime-lectures/video-archive/jungle-too-far-britain-vietnam-war

I served over 3 years with Royal engineer units in Thailand, they built 1 airfield which was occasionally used by air America in the late 60,s,at no time did we construct facilities for the USA,the fella from the www.nam.ac.uk site got his information from one of the parttimers who came on the operation for 12 weeks either from UK or Baor,usually specialist trades who were not there long enough to unpack their kitbags, we had an SAS badged LT stationed with us obviously not for food, occasional ghosts would drift in get a shower, resupply and would be gone the next day, saying that we were 45kms from thelaos border, and Vietnam was another 100kms atleast further away, even for feathermen its ahell of a long walk!!

[fifthcolumn]

Thanyaburimac, I have friends fathers here in Australia who served in Vietnam. 1 in particular has real trouble with Asians in general since the war particularly the Vietnamese here in Australia, let alone living in SE Asia. Now I assume you live in Thailand mac?I'm curious, What made you come to the decision to live there? I know Thailand isn't Vietnam and war affects everyone differently, but I would of thought living far away as possible from the place that would seem to remind you of the war and I know Thailand was an r and r location, to me it seems like the last place I would want to live besides Vietnam itself. Doesn't it remind you of the war?

In fact this question I'd like to put out there to anyone that is in the same situation...

Everyone was affected in different ways, I thought that it was the greatest thing to have happened to me...ever! I don't know how anyone could have come out of VN with a negative attitude about the Vietnamese people? They must be the toughest people on earth, they have fought and beaten the Chinese, the french and the Americans, they are cultured and friendly, if your friend had a bad experience then I'm sorry for him.

Many ex-servicemen have gone to live in Vietnam because of the positive feeling about the place, most, I think, went back initially to give something back and then realised that they were the only ones with a feeling of guilt! Who could reasonably live in the West after spending any time in Asia?

I think the sentiment from the time with the pols in DC, the brass and even grunts was that South Vietnam was throughly corrupt and that in all likelyhood, it would fall. It's citizens would fight on both sides, steal, sell supplies to the VC as well as US govt supplies and weapons if they ciuld get their hands on it.

When the US pulled out, there was a feeling of impending doom, but it took two years for the other shoe to drop. Nevertheless, it was guaranteed.

Merging north and south had a lot of sympathy after the war. It was US corporate interests that did not want to see the north lead that effort.

Uncle Ho is a nationalist figure. He used Communism as Mao and as Pol Pot simply as a banner. They all practiced Facism (National Socialism), not really universal socialism. Socialism was a means to an end for Ho. China was more than willing, to lesser extent CCCP to supply. Extend sphere of influence (markets).

The US and the "free world" failed to relax and see what Communism was really all about. It's just a big mafia and makes everyone really sad. No one wants to work and economies implode.

Vietnamese are tough, clever people. Resisilent and loyal. But I think a disservice is done to the rest of humanity who fights for their home and hearth. You don't get to leave, you get subjugated and possibly enslaved. That's something worth dying for.

[mike2011]

fifthcolumn. While I can understand that you like to equate the Red Khmer (Pol Pot faction) and Mao's organisation with the NSDAP, I think it is misguided for the Chinese. I dont mean that Mao and killer squad's were nice people, I simply would be more careful and distinguish the various trademarks. The Cambodian Red Khmers had clearly strong racist motivations but then again: can we really put these terribly regimes side by side?

Definitely I am not so sure about the Vietnamese. Racial discrimination does not seem to be a dominant feature of their politics. Similarly I am not aware of any major overkill caused by them. They had to fight a war against China for ending the killings in Cambodia. In return the US and China were only too willing to support Pol Pot. Now, applying your logic where does that leave the US? I mean when you apply your own categories about the NSDAP.

Extending this to Thailand: Thailand was the keystone in this Chino-American Pol Pot love triangle. The camps were in Thailand, they were supplied, could use the airports when going to the UN where China and the US kept the Cambodian seat for them, and the list goes on. Ah, I should add those American visitors wearing street clothing. THis suggests some operational involvement from the US side.

In that sense the Indochina war went well on into the 1990s.

Not all Thais, including officials, liked this policy. I know a few old men who have a few things to say about it when they talk about their time on the border.

[klikster]

When I first started coming back to Thailand in '89 I was on a 'tour' and staying in Chiang Mai at a hotel on the 'canal road'. Sitting in the coffee shop having a brew one afternoon, a guy approached and just suddenly said, "You Special Forces."

The man looked Chinese, tough, square jawed and muscled -- looked a bit younger than me. "Are you asking me or telling me?"

He slid into the booth and started telling me about his time as security for a Special Forces camp in 'Nam. He was a Chinese Nung. They were mercenaries and acted as the last line of security for U. S. troops. We had a platoon of them in our camp in Plei Me.

I had heard that a Chinese movie company was quartered in the hotel while they were making a movie in Chiang Mai. I have long since forgotten the Nung's name, but we had several conversations over the next few days. He was stunt co-ordinator and coreographed all the kung-<deleted> stunts.

One day he showed me some old photos of him and several members of his "A"-Team. He had a brother living in Los Angeles and wanted to immigrate -- and asked if I would help. He didn't want money, he wanted a recommendation for the INS. I told him I would be happy to help and gave him my contact info -- living in California at the time.

I didn't hear anything for some time, the got a letter from him via the movie company in Hong Kong. He thanked me for my offer to help and told me that he had been promoted and decided to stay in Kong Kong.

It was king of a surreal experience, especially some of the conversations we had.

[fifthcolumn]

Mike: The only comparison I was making is that they are not International Socialist movements in the true sense. All in retrospect and without doubt the Chinese govt today is nothing about Internationalism and is everything about China first. China has always had strained relations with the Soviet Union. Geographic, political competitions. To this day as China spreads it's wings and seeks other land and partnerships, it is solely for the purpose of helping Chinese business and Chinese people. The modern history if China, say post WW2 if not post 47 is that of a national hegemon. Not a nuturing International Socialist nation such as what the Soviets at least attempted.

But yes, Mao and the KR can be easily compared. Saloth Sar (PP) took a page right out of Mao's agrarian socialist handbook and equally screwed up Cambodia.

Sorry to hijack.

[LungKen]

WOW!!... nearly forgot all about those Chinese Nungs...mistook them for the enemy once in VN near and around Pleiku, my bad at the time , destroyed 1/2 a village trying to find them..chased them ( more like tried to follow them) all the way back to Ubon Th. then further north along the border....

[mike2011]

fifthcolumn:Fully agree with you on the Chinese "CP" and its policies. The expression national-socialist confused me, better we dont combine the two words. The "CP" is a best nationalist and worse and much more likely "imperalist" (always using their own dictionary). Their sell-out of their Thai franchise in the 1980s was telling. it is good that we cover this aspect here as people tend not to mention it for their own reasons. I wonder how much these Chinese maneuvers contributed to the failure of organizing a social-democratic (in the Western European sense) or at least liberal party in Thailand. I think this is one of the worse legacies of the Indochina War for Thailand. The country is right now paying once more for this.