Investment Poule For Members?

[lordsux]

Hi All,

I've been a member here at TV for about 3 years and know that there are many clever, intellectual and smart business orientated people here.

This got me thinking that with all the expertise and knowledge we have here, that maybe by joining forces and working together with the resources at hand we could somehow create something......that something being of course would hopefully end up making some 'money'. I know it all sounds a bit like a school project, and in a way it would be like that, albeit a group project. It’s not going to be a 'get rich quick' scheme, more of a joint hobby for the members here.

I'm not exactly sure of the how, what, where and when’s.

Initially, I just want to see how many people would be interested in a project like this. If it turns out that there is enough interest and enough members willing to participate then things could possibly get off the ground.

Any input, thoughts, business ideas, pros and cons about this idea are welcome.

[TRIPxCORE]

Getting everyone to agree will be quite impossible.

[lordsux]

Getting everyone to agree will be quite impossible.

I don't agree with you on that

Seriously though, it'll be fun to see what ideas everyone comes up with on how such a project could work.

[opothai]

i think you have a good idea and i'm sure some will be interested

but as tripx said you will have your work cut out getting everybody in line.

good luck all the same

[sting01]

i think you have a good idea and i'm sure some will be interested

but as tripx said you will have your work cut out getting everybody in line.

good luck all the same

3 years ago, someone tried to make in common the IT skills of the members who were in need of jobs/visa, and let say create a ompany doing outsourcing.

Great ideas, that leaded to some beers in O'Reilly, but nothing more.

The problem is the various population that could be interrested in your project : we dod not have all the same capacity to invest, nor thesame reasons. For some investing some millions of bht in a project is okie, for other (As I) that is more difficult.

The nature of the project is also important.

Anyway, interrested here and count me as potential

[Heng]

The good news is that anyone with a Thai spouse can ask for first hand knowledge how a money club (or 'len share' / "play share") works. The key is to have a trustworthy 'tao' (or "head" or banker, like in Monopoly).

The clubs that do work go on forever with every member getting a higher rate of return than local bank interest (not to mention the business connection synergy and bonding that goes along with it). The ones that don't sometimes fall apart after the first few meetings with the whole group getting cheated.

[~G~]

joining forces and working together with the resources at hand we could somehow create something......that something being of course would hopefully end up making some 'money'.

You can't really get any vaguer than that, can you? Having a talent or a resources, and making money out of it, are two distinct things, very far away from each other...

It’s not going to be a 'get rich quick' scheme, more of a joint hobby for the members here.

Here you go. If it starts as a hobby it's doomed from day 1. Whatever field you're in, you'll be facing competition from bodies with a slightly more serious approach.

[Upcountry]

Maybe we could l end a new meaning to 'motley fools'.

http://www.fool.com/

The key here, really, would be a group of individuals with talent and wisdom about investing here in Thailand. They could form a company (not based in Thailand to avoid Thai laws) who would give us advise or provide investing tools - maybe a "mutual fund" that would take advantage of various earning opportunties here.

Of course we can do much the same with the Bualuang branch of Bangkok Bank, but in a more conservative fashion using Thai accont managers.

[skippy]

Minimum upfront capital should start @ 1 million Baht.

[Thaipwriter]

this does not interest me.

I got an E-mail yesterday from Chile's Colonel Pinochet's second nephew and he wants to send me 500 million US Dollars.

I will be so busy working on this project that i wont have time for the Thaivisa co-operative.

Sorry Guys

[GuestHouse]

I take the general assumption that Thailand attracts more than its fair share of shady characters, on that basis I wouldn't invest with expats in Thailand.

Please don't anybody take that personally, I'm referring to the other guy(s)

[malcolminthemiddle]

I would also be interested, I started to make a list of key issues but got stuck when I got to in whose name would the investments including bank accounts be held?

Nonetheless, here is the list as far as I got:

• Membership open to all members of TV.

• A formal Articles of Agreement drafted and approved by ourselves.

• Proposed cost of 1 share US$5,000.

• Minimum investment 1 share.

• No maximum no of shares per member.

• Thai Baht bank account with 3 authorised signatures to receive and hold cash pool.

• Elected club officers.

• Elected quorum to make investment decisions by majority decision.

• Regular news letter.

• Regular dividends.

[Upcountry]

I have a question about taxes and investments here (a bit off topc, but certainly to the right audience)

Would a farang with capital gains pay have to report and Thai taxes? I suppose not, though that means no escape from, in my case, Uncle Sam's paws in my till.

I suppose I could stop filing jointly and use accounts in my wife's name.

[the gent]

Somewhat unexpectedly, I have become the beneficiary of a 999 year lease option on some property outside Cairo near Giza. This is a well established area, popular with tourists, and has a proven track record for yielding returns over a considerable period of time well in excess of other established markets. International interest has been a perennial feature ensuring stability and an investment friendly environment which has been exploited successfully by myriad international consortia.

Due to acute liquidity concerns I am prepared to sell my option and would recommend purchase by the embryonic TV syndicate as an excellent opportunity to launch their investment portfolio.

Any enquiry should be made in the first instance to my legal representatives Messrs. Sue, Grabbit & Runne.

[Firefan]

Always interested in investment opportunitues - let me know if you reach any ideas? At leat the beers at Reilleys sounds good!

The gent: he,he - we do I send the dough?

[gwkenny]

Heng: Yeah, I don't think the OP was talking about a money club. Though they are interesting to watch!

As for the OP, I think you are on a fool's errand. No one is going to fork over money into an entity into which they are going to have limited control, which is what you are going to have if a number of people puts in X into a legal entity (i.e.: limited liability company as an investment vehicle).

As the number of investors increase the success factor almost always decrease because the time spent towards communication and coordination is exponentially raised.

If the aim is to run a business, then not only will you need investors (the smaller number the better) who can adequately fund the project, you are going to need a management team (which is arguable a lot more important than whatever the project actually is) that can execute. Thailand doesn't attract those kind of people by definition. A relatively anonymous board about Thailand even more so.

The best you can hope to do is create some sort of small investment club where each member investigates a company and reports back in several weeks but everyone handles their own portfolio. That would be enough time to begin to understand that company's market, it's position, and whether if it has any possible upside if this was in the US. The difficult is harder and compounded by the fact that many company publications are not in English (i.e.: annual reports) and the people you'll get here are most likely not astute to conduct decent financial analysis.

[~G~]

Don't want to offend anyone, but I am quite amazed from this thread.

Idea 1: To run some business that does something and earns some money.

Enough said.

Idea 2: To start an investment fund based on the knowledge of Thai Visa members regarding Thai Public companies. Where is the advantage over local professional analysts?

Enough said.

[Maigo6]

I take the general assumption that Thailand attracts more than its fair share of shady characters, on that basis I wouldn't invest with expats in Thailand.

Please don't anybody take that personally, I'm referring to the other guy(s)

I tend to agree with GuestHouse.........Having been based in Thailand since 1990 I have seen some real shady characters amongst the Farang population, the only people ever to cheat me were so called Farang friends.

I'm not talking about paying 5 Baht more for a Taxi, Farangs do it style, 60,000 Baht loans, 5000's, 3000's, (just until my money gets sent over), yeah right.

There are many desperate Farangs in Thailand that would not hesitate to cheat another Farang, if it meant they could stay in Thailand a little longer.

Nothing personal, and good luck.

[gwkenny]

Idea 2: To start an investment fund based on the knowledge of Thai Visa members regarding Thai Public companies. Where is the advantage over local professional analysts?

If you are talking about the large cap stocks in Thailand, then yes I'd certainly agree with you.

But Thailand is a puddle compared to the other world financial markets. Equity research is going to be sparse at what is mid-cap for Thailand and non-existent for the small companies.

This is where someone who puts their time in can really find value. I also wouldn't trust the local "professional" analysts if they were covering these stocks. Especially from the smaller research companies where people with a local agenda might be able to have significant input into what is released with very few comparable research reports for one to gain a consensus of that specific company.

g-

[~G~]

Equity research is going to be sparse at what is mid-cap for Thailand and non-existent for the small companies.

This is where someone who puts their time in can really find value.

OK. It is sparse for a reason. Care to explain how a bunch of foreigners who don't read and write Thai, and probably don't even speak it, will conduct efficient research and assesments of small companies that are not properly analysed and whose reports are probably very questionable?

Smaller public companies will be much more difficult to value than large ones.

Private companies will be nearly impossible to value.

Where's your edge?

[gwkenny]

I guess assumptions really do reflect your environment.

There ARE quite a few farangs who can read and write Thai. I'd bet there'd even be a few around on this board. hel_l, even I know a few.

Translation services are NOT expensive.

"small companies that are not properly analysed and whose reports are probably very questionable?"

Lol. Here's a clue. It was in my previous message. I doth quote myself: "This is where someone who puts their time in can really find value".

If a company was already properly analysed with reports from reputable firms, where would there be any value added? It's already done. Just need to get your hands on the reports.

But coverage of the SET is meager because it's a small pond. So there is a lot of opportunity for someone to do their own research and "profit" off it. It just takes time and perseverence (as most jobs).

THAT'S your edge. Look at that Paul Renard guy. Is he doing anything unique? Nope, just putting his time and effort in. And people are buying it!

"how a bunch of foreigners ... will conduct efficient research and assesments of small companies"

See, that's the rub. Most people are uneducated regarding financial markets. So if someone is going to start a small investment club, then someone has to take the initiative in educating the other people in the club.

"Smaller public companies will be much more difficult to value than large ones."

This is false. It depends on the companies in question. Look at many of the large conglomerates in Thailand. They are family owned business with not one or two core business groups. They could also be a conglomerate with significant holdings in over 150 different companies (doing over 150 different things). Small companies very often have very few core businesses that generate over 80% of the revenues. That would be much easier to analyze.

Analyzing small companies does not have to be hard. There are a number of ways to tackle the problem. The public numbers have to be based on fact somewhere. The problem lies with the breakdown of the line items. But even if you don't have the line item breakdown of what consists of sales (what business units contributed what) you can still get a lot of information. Look at shareholding structure. Does a lot of individual family members hold shares or is it largely one person. If it's a number of individual family members, than there is a large chance the company probably provides for the family with money through consistent dividends (besides jobs). You can find this information out informally via social connections. Thailand isn't that big and everyone knows everybody (if you are plugged in). Dividends is public information and you can piggy back off those "consistent" family payments and check on the equity gains over the years.

You can also get market share information. Even if it's not directly published. Change and/or consistency over time would be very helpful in looking at a company.

Where's your edge? Doing your research. That's what you do before you buy something.

g-

Edited April 13, 2006 by gwkenny

[xbusman]

Okay, I got one for the group.

Lets take the dog problem in Thailand. I bet we can all agree that Soi dogs can be a little dangerous at times.

Lets make a high frequency sound hammer by simply taking the battery operated ones sold in the EU and America and knocking it off. It is after all, only a 125 Megaherz tone put out at about 110 decibels. They are quite effective and the guts are very simple. Just reverse engineer one (God I love that phrase, sounds so innocuous doesnt it?) and make it 12V operated with a remote button. We can make them mountable to a motorcycle.

I bet tooling wont run over 300,000 baht, assembly labor cant be more than a few baht each if we design it right. I think they can retail for around 200 to 250 baht but definately not over 500 baht. So direct costs around 40 baht, add 60 baht to cover tooling in the first run of 5000. Wholesale them for 200 baht Retail them for 250 baht.

So there is your first 100% margin for an upfront investment of 500,000 baht.

Easy aint it.....

[malcolminthemiddle]

I’ve updated the list I first posted in post # 12, taking into account comments since then.

Changes to the list are shown in red.

The issue of whose name would the investments including bank accounts be held remains unsolved.

1. A formal Articles of Agreement drafted and approved by ourselves.

2. Membership open to all members of TV including dodgy characters.

3. Proposed cost of 1 share US$5,000.

4. Minimum investment 1 share.

5. No maximum number of shares per member.

6. HSBC HK multi currency bank account (to facilitate currency movements) including Thai Baht with 3 authorised signatures (no shady characters) to receive, hold and disburse cash pool.

7. Elected club officers excluding shady characters, made up of:

Chairman

Secretary

Treasurer (non signature)

Legal Advisor

Investment Quorum (maximum 5 members?)

8. Club officer elections every 12 months.

9. Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer open only to applicants resident in Thailand for the long term.

10. Elected quorum, excluding shady characters, to make investment decisions by majority decision.

11. Proposed investment quorum members to submit brief outline of investment qualifications and back ground with application.

12. Regular news letter showing all investment movements, investment proposals, investment movements and current share value.

13. Regular dividends.

14. Mechanism to liquidate share(s) within a 2 week notice period.

15. No restrictions on type and location of investment.

16. Maximum limit on any one investment, 20% of the pool.

17. Minimum cash portion of the pool at any one time 20%.

18. All members have the right to propose an investment to the “investment quorum”.

19. Investment quorum obliged to consider all members investment proposals.

20. Members only Private TV Forum subject to Admin approval.

[sting01]

$ 5,000 LMAO

the requirement to have a work permit is 60 000 bht, about 1.250 $ or so, and that is a good salary in bangkok.

So it mean you are asking people to invest as minima 5 or 6 month of earning, so say they can do it only after at least one year (if they do some saving).

Does 'fishy' can apply in that case? OR are you simply jokking?

Someone who can invest that will have better to do it directly in the SET, or any other stock exchange (I think he will not do it the SET).

5 000 bucks without any warranty they will still be existing after while for reasons not related to the quotes variations is hard to believe.

[malcolminthemiddle]

$ 5,000 LMAO

the requirement to have a work permit is 60 000 bht, about 1.250 $ or so, and that is a good salary in bangkok.

So it mean you are asking people to invest as minima 5 or 6 month of earning, so say they can do it only after at least one year (if they do some saving).

Does 'fishy' can apply in that case? OR are you simply jokking?

Someone who can invest that will have better to do it directly in the SET, or any other stock exchange (I think he will not do it the SET).

5 000 bucks without any warranty they will still be existing after while for reasons not related to the quotes variations is hard to believe.

In order to give the club some real buying power, the initial share price has been pitched at US$5,000.

Ultimately it will be the members themselves who fix the entry level.

Prospective members who are unable to afford the entry level on their own but still wish to be part of the club can combine with friends to buy the minimum 1 share under a group name.

[sting01]

Glad to hear, I have some questions :

What is the average salary in US?

What is the average salary in EU?

Average mean average, not some hight profiles.

What the average salary for a legitimate corporate guy in Thailand? For the average foreigner working and living in Thailand?

Does the $5,000 are relevant or coherent with those average salaries?

On the legal point of view, what guaranty we can have the money will not vanish? Insurances will be contracted? Does the people who will have the bank signatures will deposit on an escrow account an amount corresponding to the money we will give (As it's a rule for legit brokers)?

I know people in TV who claims to be multi millionaires in $, but it's not all of us, 5000 is quite a big amount for many of us (6 month , maybe 10 month of salary for a legit teacher). So what guarranty on the legal do you offer? (the no shaggy characters is not a guatanty, nor the 3 peoples rules for the bank movement).

Thanks to clarify those points.

[~G~]

See, that's the rub. Most people are uneducated regarding financial markets. So if someone is going to start a small investment club, then someone has to take the initiative in educating the other people in the club.

Sounds very amateur to me.

"Smaller public companies will be much more difficult to value than large ones."

This is false... Small companies very often have very few core businesses that generate over 80% of the revenues. That would be much easier to analyze.

And that's just plain ignorance. The less focus there is on a company, the easier it will be to hide things.

The public numbers have to be based on fact somewhere. The problem lies with the breakdown of the line items.

Wrong. Both the line items and the sums will be phony in many cases. Accountants will do their utmost to keep it that way.

You can find this information out informally via social connections.

Right. All the secrets are discussed in coctail parties.

Thailand isn't that big and everyone knows everybody (if you are plugged in).

You might want to start by developing some plugs.

You can also get market share information. Even if it's not directly published. Change and/or consistency over time would be very helpful in looking at a company.

Bla bla bla.

Where's your edge? Doing your research. That's what you do before you buy something.

Good luck. Anyone who gives his money to this kind of amateur handing is out of his mind.

[thohts]

Why does it have to be one business? It could be multiple.

Just an idea:

Set up a corporation (Thailand, Hong Kong or Singapore) and issue shares

10,000 shares at $20 per share (for example)

Members can buy as many or as little shares as they want.

Each would then own an actual portion of the entity

Top 10-12 investors are board members whose first priority is electing a leader or president.

(Members don't have to agree. They can vote. Why start a company and try to run it by trying to get everyone to agree? This shouldn't be a company of friends and such. It should run like companies should be run. Anything else is just a sandbox)

Members can then present their ideas (in some detail; a short business plan) for presentation to the board and for a request of capital. The board will then decide what resources to allocate to it, if any.

Your investment (in shares) grows or shrinks along with the value of the company. If you want out, you can simply offer to sell your shares to someone else. If you want in (or more shares) you can offer to buy more of the company by buying more shares.

For $200,000, you can start about 30 promising internet businesses, or a few brick-and-mortar, or a couple of import/export or service businesses, or a combination of all those types.

I'd prefer a conglomeration like this because my bet would be hedged.

-----

One mustn't overlook all of the great ideas for businesses OUTSIDE of Thaiand and also on the internet. I, myself, would never start a business in Thailand or start a retail shop anywhere for various reasons. My first bet would be an internet-based business. But I think this pooling of resources idea is a good one, esepcially for the financial part of it.

[thohts]

...addendum to the above:

All books and finances, etc., should be open to everyone who owns 1+ share.

No secrets.

[gwkenny]

Sounds very amateur to me.

Yes, and that's all that can be done here. As I stated before, this "investment" pooling via some sort of corporation won't work. How is anyone going to determine who is and who isn't a dodgy character.

There is no recourse for a minority investor if the people controlling the firm decide to buy a "golden" goose with all the capital and then this goose up and dies. Going through Thai courts to get your money back would be laughable considering the amounts involved.

Besides that, there is little benefit to pooling together to purchase securities. It is very cheap for an individual to buy securities. Trading in value blocks of 50,000 baht or even smaller isn't a problem.

The only form that this idea can work in is via a "social" investment club, which, unless it has some finance professionals, is by definition, amateurish.

And that's just plain ignorance. The less focus there is on a company, the easier it will be to hide things.

Yeah, tell that to Enron et al.

Good luck. Anyone who gives his money to this kind of amateur handing is out of his mind.

That's the only thing that you have said that makes sense.

Seriously though, an intelligent investor does have an edge because there is sparse coverage of middle market cap companies. It just takes research which isn't hard. Just takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. It is a true undeniable edge.

I just don't see anyone putting in all that time to gain that knowledge and freely share this edge with others (especially strangers) without some benefit. This is why I stated from the start, setting up a company as an investment vehicle that people buy shares in won't work.

g-