Certitude.......Too Sure of Yourself?......

[theblether]

I was having a blether with a few pals on Saturday night and we were discussing some of the issues of the day here in Thailand. A stranger to the company declared with absolute certainty that there wouldn't be a coup in Thailand this year.

"How do you know"?

"I just know it"

"Are you aware of........."

"No I don't read the newspapers"

"So you're just guessing based upon no knowledge of the current situation whatsoever"?

.....................................................................................................

At this point we're joined by a very well connected US government employee who told us a story that I'm not repeating..........

Stranger......."How do you know"?

US................"It's my job"

S.................."Aye right, so your claiming to work for the US government blah blah..........."

US................"I'm not claiming, I'm stating, you got a problem with that"?

So the stranger sat there full of certitude and cast doubt on every word that was said........

So the government official took great delight in demolishing him, ridiculing him by exposing the stupidity of what he was saying, dissecting every word

........................................................................................................

So the stranger was asked a simple question about how he knew so much, and so much better than all the long term expats he was surrounded by, he said.........

"I've been coming to Thailand on holiday for years, and now I spend more and more time here"

He added

"I find that 80% plus of the expats only come here to complain about everything. They read the English speaking press and believe what they are reading and spend their time on forums moaning about the country"

Said the man that doesn't read newspapers, and eh, obviously must read forums otherwise how would he know about the moaning rate?

............................................................................................................

So at this point US government employee launched into a forensic examination and complete demolition job on the guy, it was painful to behold so I left. It was like watching David Brent being tortured.

Yesterday US government employee reported that after exposing lie after lie by the guy, ( he apparently was the guy that designed the AOL framework, which is some going eh? ) he eventually stormed out, his bubble well and truly burst.

.............................................................................................................

So it got me thinking, why do people do that? Is there a million people floating about the country thinking that they are ever wiser and clued up than their fellow farangs? Is that what gives them a boner?

I think it's pathetic.

Western foreigners in Thailand come in many guises, from tourists ( who really don't need to know much about the country, they're only here on holiday ), to frequent visitors ( like me ), to genuine expats, ( on work contracts ) and to those that live here.

There's a substantial contingent here in Thailand that are very helpful, very quick to offer good advice and very quick help out if things go pear shaped. To these people high praise is due.

There's another contingent which is full of sour faced no marks that actually think there greater knowledge of Thailand is an achievement worth celebrating, and can be used to ridicule others. Commonly known as w*nk*rs.

Where are you on this?

Are you the half wit that was roundly demolished on Saturday night?

Or are you the helpful type?

Or does it depend on how much drink you've had?

Just askin'

[BookMan]

Some people, once they offer a point of view, just don't like to back down, no matter what evidence to the contrary they are presented with.

[theblether]

Some people, once they offer a point of view, just don't like to back down, no matter what evidence to the contrary they are presented with.

That was certainly the case the other night there.

The guy couldn't have walked in to a greater bear pit though. We all know what the US official does for a living and that individual is known for being extraordinarily switched on. As I say it got so painful to watch I had to leave.

At the end of the day all of our knowledge is limited in regards to Thailand, as long as we accept that and keep our ears open we can learn more. If we think we know it all we are beat.

[JLCrab]

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

-- US President Ronald Reagan, AUG 1986 while still President

[krisb]

Ahh, I know exactly the type you mention Blether, but instead of calling them w@nk#rs, we call them <deleted> <deleted>. The Thais call it ruu mark. You know the ironic bit is the Thais also do it. I've listened to the girls thinking they know so much about some other country than the girl who hasn't been as many times, or hasnt been anywhere at all. Usually if Spielbergs talking crap in the pub, I'm straight to the pool table.

[David48]

I believe to have an open mind is a very wise thing.

When I encounter a new situation, I observe many others reactions then make a valued judgement.

Maybe the day, I stop learning will the day they are planting daisies or lighting the flame.

I hope day is long, long into the future ...

.

[JSixpack]

Such types abound on the forum, notably among the doomsayer brigade. They will set you to "ignore" rather than discuss rationally. Before they do that, they usually resort to personal attacks and trolling.

In the past, you could enjoy picking apart their posts point-by-point by using either the quote system or just '>" for their text. Now you can have only 4 quotations and can't use the angle brackets, so it isn't as fun as it was.

[robblok]

I readily admit when I am mistaken if its clear, though what others think is clear might just be their point of view. Things I think are obvious are not that too others. We all look at things from our own POV, but at some times you really have to thrown in the towel at superior knowledge. Often people read things in newspapers and think they are the truth not knowing that they are just put there to sell papers. The real truth is often much more a nuance and not as stated by the paper, but that would not sell good and would be to complicated for a lot of people to read.

[ABCer]

Good story, OP, but so long that it gets boring.

Doubt was always considered the mother of truth.

However, nobody knows what Truth is.

Certainty on the other hand was always the domain of fanatics.

Not long ago people were certain the Earth was flat.

Nowadays most people are certain the majority is right...

I can be convinced to change my mind, but it takes a good and thorough argument.

I prefer to 'know' than to 'believe'. Yet I always believe I know very little.

There is one hole in the balloon - your very well connected buddy working for the Gov't - is talking too much for what he says he is. In a pub! To strangers!

Unless I misunderstood your hints.

Cheers.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ABCer

[dao16]

The real way to avoid all of this is to follow a simple rule: Express what you think you know, but don't be afraid to say you don't know something (actually proactively admit you don't know something you don't know). It's liberating, and it actually gets people (probably especially males) excited to tell you about what they know.

I will stick to my guns if I think I know something and have reasons/evidence, but I will quickly change my tune if someone brings a superior argument to bear or new information that I didn't have before. Nothing embarrassing in that. It's called "learning."

[JLCrab]

The real way to avoid all of this is to follow a simple rule: Express what you think you know, but don't be afraid to say you don't know something (actually proactively admit you don't know something you don't know). It's liberating, and it actually gets people (probably especially males) excited to tell you about what they know.

I will stick to my guns if I think I know something and have reasons/evidence, but I will quickly change my tune if someone brings a superior argument to bear or new information that I didn't have before. Nothing embarrassing in that. It's called "learning."

My approach to the "Express what you think you know" statement above (at least in situations not involving the propensities of young Thai women, etc.) is simple:

Never express anything unless you can corroborate same with one or more independent third party sources.

I have worked with lawyers, CPAs/Chartered Accountants, MBAs/PhDs, etc. where my opinion versus theirs is essentially worthless. But if I can say you said X, but in Statute 1234 it says -- contrary to what you said -- Y is actually the case, then I am on reasonably safe turf.

[benalibina]

The real way to avoid all of this is to follow a simple rule: Express what you think you know, but don't be afraid to say you don't know something (actually proactively admit you don't know something you don't know). It's liberating, and it actually gets people (probably especially males) excited to tell you about what they know.

I will stick to my guns if I think I know something and have reasons/evidence, but I will quickly change my tune if someone brings a superior argument to bear or new information that I didn't have before. Nothing embarrassing in that. It's called "learning."

Good comment, many people however will stick to their original POV in a discussion by making themselves look ridiculous. Wonder how thai people deal with discussions. Anyone knows ?

[chrisinth]

Another good question TB! Below would be how I would break it down a little more for the forum poster:

1/ There is the person who will give advice through what they have personally experienced in Thailand. (This may not be what the recipient wants to hear, or indeed be 100% relevant to the question being asked, but given in good faith regardless) Generally good advice.

2/ There is the person who will give advice based on current legal documentation, supplied with source (this I would term as professional advice, even though it may not strictly be a professional giving it) Generally good advice.

3/ Occasionally, (actually quite a lot) there will be the poster who will question the source of the thread, looking at it from a different angle and present a different interpretation of the story, not obediently believing the text of the OP simply because it has been written by a reporter for a media source.

4/ There is then the person who will twist the OP so that the thread can contain some irrelevant facts pertaining to their home countries laws and regulations, because they have retained this knowledge and feel it must be shared at all costs (Normally regarding drug/gun/immigration topics) Generally ignored.

5/ Then there is the person who will present comments formed on second-hand information they have gleaned through unsubstantiated sources, but believe in their own hearts that it is true simply because they have been told or have read it somewhere. Generally, in my experience, these are the posters who will not be deterred by facts that their information may be flawed.

6/ Some posters comment on a topic to lighten the mood, to add a bit of humour to it. IMO, an essential group in the forum. The majority of this group can recognise when humour is needed, but there are the unfortunate few that try to inject their humour where it is not needed or is inappropriate.

7/ Finally (in my abridged list) is the troll, these delightful creatures who venture out from under their bridges every now and again to spread havoc and chaos through the threads.

Where do I think I come in the above? A little bit of 1/, 3/, & 6/ would be how I would like to regard myself.

But would also admit that on certain occasions throughout my life I have been called a w*nk*r.........

[kannot]

The real way to avoid all of this is to follow a simple rule: Express what you think you know, but don't be afraid to say you don't know something (actually proactively admit you don't know something you don't know). It's liberating, and it actually gets people (probably especially males) excited to tell you about what they know.

I will stick to my guns if I think I know something and have reasons/evidence, but I will quickly change my tune if someone brings a superior argument to bear or new information that I didn't have before. Nothing embarrassing in that. It's called "learning."

Good comment, many people however will stick to their original POV in a discussion by making themselves look ridiculous. Wonder how thai people deal with discussions. Anyone knows ?

Avoid at all costs.

[pattayadingo]

They are everywhere.

Bar stool politicians, know alls etc.

These people like to ram their ideas and *cough* knowledge down others throats.

Yes, I walk away from them, their ideas and their attitudes. Sometimes with a cutting remark as I get up to leave the topic / bar stool / room.

We all have our own ways, ideas and thoughts, but we should not be intransigent. We should be open to other ideas but not to ideas that are being rammed down our throats.

None of us are perfect and we can never stop learning - well, most of us

[JLCrab]

On ThaiVisa, at least, I look at it this way (where last week on TVisa I was call an imbecile): Screenplay from The Sting --

Johnny Hooker: I gave him the breakout just like you said.

Henry Gondorff: And?

Johnny Hooker: 'S good. He threatened to kill me.

Henry Gondorff: Hell, kid, they don't do that, you know you're not getting to 'em.

[chrisinth]

They are everywhere.

Bar stool politicians, know alls etc.

These people like to ram their ideas and *cough* knowledge down others throats.

Yes, I walk away from them, their ideas and their attitudes. Sometimes with a cutting remark as I get up to leave the topic / bar stool / room.

We all have our own ways, ideas and thoughts, but we should not be intransigent. We should be open to other ideas but not to ideas that are being rammed down our throats.

None of us are perfect and we can never stop learning - well, most of us alt=laugh.png width=20 height=20>

One of the most interesting advice-giving conversations I have had here was from a well travelled Thailand visitor; this being his second or third 2-3 week holiday here, about how dangerous Phitsanulok was for foreigners and that I should take precautions when I went out at night. So enthusiastic was he making people feel safe that there was no talking to him.

I thanked him greatly for his insight into the situation and promised to follow his knowledgeable advice to the letter. I didn't think it necessary to tell him I had been living here for the last 12 years at that time.

Two or three days after this, I bumped into him, at night, down by the riverside while I was walking the dogs (which I do every night). He was walking with a limp and sporting one of the best black eyes I had ever seen. He had apparently not followed his own advice.

It was only then that I thought he should know that the only dangerous thing a foreigner could do in Phitsanulok was to walk along the river at night and try to pickup underage girls or kratoys. This is where the young people hangout.

Even though my advice was given late, I slept well that night. I think he will always remember his adventure in Phits

It is an unfortunate fact of life that there will always be a percentage of us that should be receiving instead of transmitting..............

[theblether]

They are everywhere.

Bar stool politicians, know alls etc.

These people like to ram their ideas and *cough* knowledge down others throats.

Yes, I walk away from them, their ideas and their attitudes. Sometimes with a cutting remark as I get up to leave the topic / bar stool / room.

We all have our own ways, ideas and thoughts, but we should not be intransigent. We should be open to other ideas but not to ideas that are being rammed down our throats.

None of us are perfect and we can never stop learning - well, most of us alt=laugh.png width=20 height=20>

One of the most interesting advice-giving conversations I have had here was from a well travelled Thailand visitor; this being his second or third 2-3 week holiday here, about how dangerous Phitsanulok was for foreigners and that I should take precautions when I went out at night. So enthusiastic was he making people feel safe that there was no talking to him.

I thanked him greatly for his insight into the situation and promised to follow his knowledgeable advice to the letter. I didn't think it necessary to tell him I had been living here for the last 12 years at that time.

Two or three days after this, I bumped into him, at night, down by the riverside while I was walking the dogs (which I do every night). He was walking with a limp and sporting one of the best black eyes I had ever seen. He had apparently not followed his own advice.

It was only then that I thought he should know that the only dangerous thing a foreigner could do in Phitsanulok was to walk along the river at night and try to pickup underage girls or kratoys. This is where the young people hangout.

Even though my advice was given late, I slept well that night. I think he will always remember his adventure in Phits

It is an unfortunate fact of life that there will always be a percentage of us that should be receiving instead of transmitting..............

Gawd Chris I forgot you lived in Phits, I was down there the other week.

Is there any motorcycle rental places down there? I fancy coming back down on a bus ( or train from Chiang Mai? ) and having a good look around.

Your first post was excellent, this one equally so. It would be great to meet you when I'm down as long as you promise to not try any of that funny transmitting stuff cos I'm not into receiving.

Just so you know.

[Stradavarius37]

Opinions are like a$$holes....and we all know that TV is full of...