Court ruling not good news for Thai Democrat leaders

[nicknostitz]

I am quite amazed how many posts here breach Thailand's rather strict contempt of court laws. Criticizing court decisions are one thing, but as i read here, accusing the court of being bribed is basically an offense that can result in prison terms. Or are Thaivisa and some posters above the law?

Anyhow, it seems that some here try grasp for straws. There were forensic investigations, and if anyone here would have bothered to look, anyone could have seen a very clear bullet trajectory in the Wat Patum case, in which, at the location of one of the deaths, a bullet grazed a corner of a wall and hit another wall maybe 40 cm away. The trajectory points clearly to the position of the soldiers on the BTS tracks.

As none of the killed in the temple had any sign of gun powder residue on them, it is clear that these were unarmed protesters.

Nobody could say anything against the military if they would have shot armed militants.

The investigations began already during the last government, and as the at the time leaked reports have shown, came to the more or less same results already under the last government as the courts have ruled now.

Even worse, after the 2010 incident, both Suthep and Gen. Anupong Paochinda have maintained that the military had no soldiers stationed on the BTS tracks numerous times, even though both were in positions to have known the truth.

This is also not the first inquest verdict in which the courts have clearly pointed at the military as the ones who shot, based on forensic evidence, video and photo footage, and witness accounts, and also pointed out the units responsible. Only 2 cases were ruled not clear as cause of death, the cases of 11 dead have been ruled against the military by now. More cases are to come.

The narrative of the military not having shot protesters, journalists or bystanders is getting untenable.

Edited August 8, 2013 by nicknostitz

[khunken]

Sometimes the usual suspects are beyond parody.This fellow appears to be suggesting the MIB (the court having concluded there was no evidence of them) fired on unarmed civilians in the temple.

Pointless to discuss with this level of inanity.

"The court concluded" or "the court was presented with" ?

The court's decision is predicated by the evidence presented to it by the DSI, who, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, have never acknowledged ANY MIB, at least under this government.

Yet it states in the OP "In previous cases when courts found security forces to be responsible, there were gunfights with armed militants in the area. However, in the latest case, there was no evidence that armed militants were involved." Which surely indicates the DSI have in fact presented the court with evidence of armed militants in previous cases. Besides which the case was investigated under the Democrat government.

The DSI under Tarit is a chameleon body. Under the Democrats the DSI prosecuted as many of red shirts as it could, some of which were found innocent.

Under the PTP (Thaksin's acolytes' instructions) the DSI has denied the existence of the MIB, absolved the army of any prosecution & presented 'evidence' to the court that the army just killed people willy-nilly under Abhisit's instructions. This is what the court was deciding on and it is circumstantial evidence at best.

No proof of who actually fired, no possibility of MIB or other armed elements having acquired army weapons being the culprits and no possibility of the army (if it was them) being fired upon by militants inside or beside the Wat.

That innocents were killed is beyond question. The 'no evidence' is not surprising given the DSI agenda.

Some posters just go berserk with glee in thinking that Abhisit & Suthep are directly responsible. This is ridiculous unless they gave direct orders to shoot unarmed civilians. There's no proof whatsoever of that. But that doesn't matter to the hang-em-high brigade who are an embarrassment to the TV community.

[khunken]

I am quite amazed how many posts here breach Thailand's rather strict contempt of court laws. Criticizing court decisions are one thing, but as i read here, accusing the court of being bribed is basically an offense that can result in prison terms. Or are Thaivisa and some posters above the law?

Anyhow, it seems that some here try grasp for straws. There were forensic investigations, and if anyone here would have bothered to look, anyone could have seen a very clear bullet trajectory in the Wat Patum case, in which, at the location of one of the deaths, a bullet grazed a corner of a wall and hit another wall maybe 40 cm away. The trajectory points clearly to the position of the soldiers on the BTS tracks.

As none of the killed in the temple had any sign of gun powder residue on them, it is clear that these were unarmed protesters.

Nobody could say anything against the military if they would have shot armed militants.

The investigations began already during the last government, and as the at the time leaked reports have shown, came to the more or less same results already under the last government as the courts have ruled now.

Even worse, after the 2010 incident, both Suthep and Gen. Anupong Paochinda have maintained that the military had no soldiers stationed on the BTS tracks numerous times, even though both were in positions to have known the truth.

This is also not the first inquest verdict in which the courts have clearly pointed at the military as the ones who shot, based on forensic evidence, video and photo footage, and witness accounts, and also pointed out the units responsible. Only 2 cases were ruled not clear as cause of death, the cases of 11 dead have been ruled against the military by now. More cases are to come.

The narrative of the military not having shot protesters, journalists or bystanders is getting untenable.

I don't deny that the military shot innocents as per some of the previous court cases although in one case the victim was somewhere he shouldn't have been.

I also don't deny that these people in the Wat were shot, probably from the BTS tracks or station. Nor do accuse the court of being biased. However, did the court consider that the culprits were non-military possibly even in military uniforms? Apparently not because the DSI refused to consider that possibility and the court was left with no choice.

Note: I don't claim to know all the facts but with the DSI heavily involved there is every chance of suppression of contrary evidence from other witnesses.

Edited August 8, 2013 by khunken

[nicknostitz]

I don't deny that the military shot innocents as per some of the previous court cases although in one case the victim was somewhere he shouldn't have been.

I also don't deny that these people in the Wat were shot, probably from the BTS tracks or station. Nor do accuse the court of being biased. However, did the court consider that the culprits were non-military possibly even in military uniforms? Apparently not because the DSI refused to consider that possibility and the court was left with no choice.

Note: I don't claim to know all the facts but with the DSI heavily involved there is every chance of suppression of contrary evidence from other witnesses.

In the clear cut cases even the units responsible were mostly identified, and some of their members have testified at court. Some of their tales though were more than bewildering, and counter every forensic evidence.

For example in the Channarong case, in which i testified as well, the soldiers pointed the shooter as a person on a high rise close to the Red Shirt protesters at Samliem Dindaeng, which would have meant that this shooter would have shot a bullet that was able to make a curve in midair to be able to hit Channarong in the stomach, which was pointed at the direction of soldiers while he was shot. And that is besides the point that none of my colleagues who remained at Samliem Dindaeng during that incident have seen or heard that supposed shooter.

Also Chaiwat, the Nation photographer, who was shot in the leg during the same incident was standing with a wall in his back (behind which another journalist was hiding) while open to the military bunkers. The impact of the bullet, breaking his bone and disabling him for life, was seen on video shot by a Thai PBS cameraman.

In the Pan Kamkhong case there is a video that shows soldiers firing at the van whose driver was shot and badly injured. During the same incident a 14 year old boy was killed.

etc.

There were two cases, so far, which were ruled no clear cause of death, because it could not be shown beyond reasonable doubt that the military shot them. Maybe there will be more such cases. Especially of the April 10 incident i expect such rulings, as there were firefights between soldiers and so called Men in Black, and snipers and a lot of confusion. But even there is more than enough forensic evidence that the soldiers have fired towards protesters, which until now the military has never acknowledged.

Until today, neither the military nor the Democrat Party have in public acknowledged the result of these court judgements.

Edited August 8, 2013 by nicknostitz

[khunken]

I don't deny that the military shot innocents as per some of the previous court cases although in one case the victim was somewhere he shouldn't have been.

I also don't deny that these people in the Wat were shot, probably from the BTS tracks or station. Nor do accuse the court of being biased. However, did the court consider that the culprits were non-military possibly even in military uniforms? Apparently not because the DSI refused to consider that possibility and the court was left with no choice.

Note: I don't claim to know all the facts but with the DSI heavily involved there is every chance of suppression of contrary evidence from other witnesses.

In the clear cut cases even the units responsible were mostly identified, and some of their members have testified at court. Some of their tales though were more than bewildering, and counter every forensic evidence.

For example in the Channarong case, in which i testified as well, the soldiers pointed the shooter as a person on a high rise close to the Red Shirt protesters at Samliem Dindaeng, which would have meant that this shooter would have shot a bullet that was able to make a curve in midair to be able to hit Channarong in the stomach, which was pointed at the direction of soldiers while he was shot. And that is besides the point that none of my colleagues who remained at Samliem Dindaeng during that incident have seen or heard that supposed shooter.

Also Chaiwat, the Nation photographer, who was shot in the leg during the same incident was standing with a wall in his back (behind which another journalist was hiding) while open to the military bunkers. The impact of the bullet, breaking his bone and disabling him for life, was seen on video shot by a Thai PBS cameraman.

In the Pan Kamkhong case there is a video that shows soldiers firing at the van whose driver was shot and badly injured. During the same incident a 14 year old boy was killed.

etc.

There were two cases, so far, which were ruled no clear cause of death, because it could not be shown beyond reasonable doubt that the military shot them. Maybe there will be more such cases. Especially of the April 10 incident i expect such rulings, as there were firefights between soldiers and so called Men in Black, and snipers and a lot of confusion. But even there is more than enough forensic evidence that the soldiers have fired towards protesters, which until now the military has never acknowledged.

Until today, neither the military nor the Democrat Party have in public acknowledged the result of these court judgements.

I accept your take on the cases you mention.

Maybe the military & Democrats would acknowledge the cases when the red shirts and PTP acknowledge the paymaster, who killed the Colonel, who were the MIB, who was responsible for the grenades fired from the Lumpini Park vicinity that killed some police and civilians and who burned various Bangkok sites deliberately - among other key questions.

A quid pro quo issue.

[kimamey]

I am quite amazed how many posts here breach Thailand's rather strict contempt of court laws. Criticizing court decisions are one thing, but as i read here, accusing the court of being bribed is basically an offense that can result in prison terms. Or are Thaivisa and some posters above the law?

Anyhow, it seems that some here try grasp for straws. There were forensic investigations, and if anyone here would have bothered to look, anyone could have seen a very clear bullet trajectory in the Wat Patum case, in which, at the location of one of the deaths, a bullet grazed a corner of a wall and hit another wall maybe 40 cm away. The trajectory points clearly to the position of the soldiers on the BTS tracks.

As none of the killed in the temple had any sign of gun powder residue on them, it is clear that these were unarmed protesters.

Nobody could say anything against the military if they would have shot armed militants.

The investigations began already during the last government, and as the at the time leaked reports have shown, came to the more or less same results already under the last government as the courts have ruled now.

Even worse, after the 2010 incident, both Suthep and Gen. Anupong Paochinda have maintained that the military had no soldiers stationed on the BTS tracks numerous times, even though both were in positions to have known the truth.

This is also not the first inquest verdict in which the courts have clearly pointed at the military as the ones who shot, based on forensic evidence, video and photo footage, and witness accounts, and also pointed out the units responsible. Only 2 cases were ruled not clear as cause of death, the cases of 11 dead have been ruled against the military by now. More cases are to come.

The narrative of the military not having shot protesters, journalists or bystanders is getting untenable.

I don't deny that the military shot innocents as per some of the previous court cases although in one case the victim was somewhere he shouldn't have been.

I also don't deny that these people in the Wat were shot, probably from the BTS tracks or station. Nor do accuse the court of being biased. However, did the court consider that the culprits were non-military possibly even in military uniforms? Apparently not because the DSI refused to consider that possibility and the court was left with no choice.

Note: I don't claim to know all the facts but with the DSI heavily involved there is every chance of suppression of contrary evidence from other witnesses.

There will never be complete certainty about who shot the victims but it does seem likely it was the military. The involvement of the DSI unfortunately taints anything with which it is involved as it's impossible to have faith in the independence of a body that has admitted it isn't.

The heading of the OP focuses on the idea that this ruling isn't good for the Democrat leaders but as I've said in an earlier post it actually shifts blame from them as the court's ruling suggests that the soldiers were acting outside of their ROE.

The issue of Suthep and Gen. Anupong Paochinda give false statements about troop positions is more difficult and they should be held to account for that.

[rubl]

Not really anything to do with Thaksin, is it ???

A group of soldiers fired into a temple and killed 6 unarmed people, including a medic attending to injured people.

An independent court has found them ( the soldiers, and by extension, their officers ) culpable and now it remains to be seen how the court system processes this decision.

Hopefully, there will be a prosecution.

It's rather good thing that a coroners court has arrived at a decision holding the RTA responsible for it's actions, would you not agree ???

That could be a first.

True, oh so true. Mind you the "no evidence that armed militants were present on that day" seems a bit strange with the odd grenade dropped on the 19th and the gunfights and the fire brigade shot at, and and and so on. It may not excuse this 'collateral damage' (excuses for using this term ), but seems to more than explain why it could happen

Edited August 8, 2013 by rubl

[nicknostitz]

There will never be complete certainty about who shot the victims but it does seem likely it was the military. The involvement of the DSI unfortunately taints anything with which it is involved as it's impossible to have faith in the independence of a body that has admitted it isn't.

The heading of the OP focuses on the idea that this ruling isn't good for the Democrat leaders but as I've said in an earlier post it actually shifts blame from them as the court's ruling suggests that the soldiers were acting outside of their ROE.

The issue of Suthep and Gen. Anupong Paochinda give false statements about troop positions is more difficult and they should be held to account for that.

And lets not forget - positions of troops that in a court inquest were found guilty of having shot and killed the people in Wat Pratum...

[OzMick]

And lets not forget - positions of troops that in a court inquest were found guilty of having shot and killed the people in Wat Pratum...

And has been argued, the court's decision is entirely dependent on the evidence presented by the DSI, who somehow fail the independent investigator role.

As detritus was left behind, and the troops involved are known, why is there no fingerprint evidence that the casings and other items belonged to those soldiers?

[klubex99]

"......................This is a 95% Buddhist country. If soldiers just took it upon themselves to camp in front of a temple full of women and children, with police filming it, then indiscriminately fire shots at people inside killing 6 including medical personnel want their heads examined..................."

Quote from klubex99, #28.

You are of course right, they do indeed need their "heads examined" because that is more or less exactly what they did.

Not only do the soldiers and officers concerned need their "heads examined" , in my opinion they, and their officers, need to be brought to justice in a civilian court and tried for murder.

If it is all as straightforward and conclusive as the courts deem. Then surely more than 3 years to conclude this is equally bizarre. However, dragging this out to release this conclusion with the timing it has been given seems to smack of 'set up'.

But to round up these soldiers and convict them, they would need to have the bullet match on the guns and a name to put to that gun. This is equally straightforward and IMHO necessary to get a conviction. Unless they are going to bypass the trigger pullers and go for the commanding officers.

With a sniff of 'coup' already in the air, I doubt that would be a very clever move.