Curious non ned

[sweetprof24]

Why? A NES wrote this on one of our test papers..

Sent from my LT26w using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sirchai]

Your NES is wrong. There is " such a thing".

Countries that are considered "western countries" include:

United States of America
Canada
Australia
United Kingdom
France
Germany
Spain
New Zealand and most other European Union countries.-

[andrewrooney]

Maybe the person took "most western" to mean "furthest west?"

As in, he or she was reading the question and thought, "most western? Ha! That's a trick question! The world is ROUND!"

[zeichen]

I cannot give a full answer without seeing the actual answers to the question.

It does seem that your answers were country specific but your question was very general.

Overall there is no one defining characteristic in regards to cultural customs for all western countries because just like Asian countries we are all different.

So in that sense there is no such thing.

I probably would have wrote something more specific if I were editing that for you, but it really isn't an accurate question.

Asians are all good at math. Is that an accurate statement? NO of course not but it is a generalized stereotype we say in the west. For those that live in Thailand no that it isn't true.

Sirichai, yes there are western countries. Perhaps look a little more at the question and not just what is circled.

that short list, leaves out Russian, Serbia, Crotia, Poland, Czech Republic, Greece, Italy, Ukraine, Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands, Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Columbia, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Brazil, Peru, El salvador......

You are talking over 60 countries that are all lumped together and giving one cultural stereotype that lumps all of them together.

[sirchai]

Zeichen, I'd guess the question's a part of a test, right? Countries like Switzerland, Holland ( Netherlands) Greece, Italy, etc are part of the European Union.

It's just a question, where ":western countries" is being used to differentiate between other, 'western' cultural customs to Asian culture.

Not in the mood to split hairs here. Should they use" more developed countries" to make a difference?

When you're talking about the third world, what's the first and second world?

Or was it Yul Brunner with his film "Westworld" who made up 'western countries'?-

[zeichen]

There are no second world nations. Third world nations is a very specific set of countries referring to a certain period of time.

You cannot also call western countries more developed. Japan, Korean, Singapore are a lot more developed than most East block European countries, Ireland, and Scotland, not to mention all Central and South American countries because by all definitions would be considered western.

It would be like making assessments on Asian but not realizing that India would also be considered and Asian country.

The point is to interpret the essence of the question and not just focus on the word "western countries"

Because as I pointed out there is not underlying unity in all of those individual nations' culture.

So in short there is no such thing as one group-set called "western countries" in the context of this cultural customs question.

When Asians meet each other they...?

a. shake hands

b. bow

c. wai

d. hug

You cannot ask a question like this because you are asking for individual cultural customs but using a generic land division.

But it is clear that you have no problem lumping everyone together and ignoring their individual differences.

[sirchai]

Got your message. Fact is that almost ALL test questions at Thai schools are either grammatically wrong, or the wrong sentence structure.

In some test questions is not even one possible answer, others have two or more answers that would be correct.

The Op was just asking if the NES was right and I just gave my own personal opinion regarding 'western countries.' Life's too short. Peace.-

Edited August 21, 2013 by sirchai

[SlyAnimal]

I think that most people are pretty comfortable with the definition that "Western" refers to European culture. Which is therefore made up of USA/Canada/Aus/NZ, as well as of course Europe. You could also include countries like Singapore as being western, as they have adopted western culture, despite being located in Asia and having a population which is largely of Chinese descent, rather than European. Other people, cities or countries you might define as "Westernised" when they've adopted large amounts of "western" culture, but it hasn't extended to the entire population.

The NES teacher who is cited in the initial post, was obviously in a bit of a mood and decided to nit pick regarding the choice of the Thai teacher's words in the question. Perhaps he would have preferred it if the Thai teacher said it in the usual way of "In most farang countries....".

Personally I vastly prefer to be referred to as western, rather than farang, and likewise I'd prefer westerner rather than European or Caucasian as it doesn't define my race (I am of European/Caucasian descent, but if I was a New Zealander of Maori/Pacific/Chinese descent, I'd still be a westerner, yet European/Caucasian wouldn't include me).

[sweetprof24]

the question was:

In most western countries, people greet each other with a ______. ( 1. wai 2. handshake 3. gifts 4. note )

Actually, an American teacher made the test then the Filipino- Assistant Head gave the test paper to the assigned Irish and British NES for editing/checking. They also remarked that "take aerobics" is correct than "do aerobics". Is this a matter of AmE and BrE issue?

[andrewrooney]

There are no second world nations. Third world nations is a very specific set of countries referring to a certain period of time.

I dunno, I think Cuba might still be considered a second world nation

[zeichen]

I think that question is fine as is. Gifts could be an answer also but since it doesn't match grammatically with the sentence then it can obviously be ruled out.

You can take aerobics but that would imply a course. Do aerobics is definitely the more common usage for Americans. The other one that gets me is Bowling. An Australian I once worked with remarked that they play bowling where we often say go bowling.

Sly Animal, I don't think that you know any Singaporeans if you think they wouldn't mind being called western. They are very proud of their heritage. I don't think that the Maori people would like being called westerner either.

In most cases it would be better to identify a people from exactly where they are from when speaking of cultural similarities. I also don't think that most Americans would be to happy about being called European as you did in your first sentence even though many of us might be from European decent if you go back far enough.

[sirchai]

the question was:

In most western countries, people greet each other with a ______. ( 1. wai 2. handshake 3. gifts 4. note )

Actually, an American teacher made the test then the Filipino- Assistant Head gave the test paper to the assigned Irish and British NES for editing/checking. They also remarked that "take aerobics" is correct than "do aerobics". Is this a matter of AmE and BrE issue?

Please don’t be concerned about different opinions of NES. The “In most western countries” as used in your question was okay.

Why would anybody like to split hairs, because of such an- often used- phrase? Not just in Thailand.

Aerobics refers to different activities such as rope jumping, running, walking etc. and you usually do aerobic exercises, or aerobics, but not take them.

You’d only use “take an aerobic course.” Instead of saying you’re taking aerobics; you’d always say that you’re doing aerobics, if no other word like (aerobic) courses follows.

It’s similar to your language Thai. If I ask my wife to read a student’s name for me, it’s always different to what my son is telling me.

So are the NES's opinions, who’re teaching English in Thailand.Different.-

[sweetprof24]

As a non NES, we accept corrections from a NES or from those knowledgeable enough. And believe me, we've been edited/corrected many times. The different NES opinions concern us because we are open to these knowledge -- old or new. We've known for some time that its "do aerobics" and here they go saying its incorrect. So we tend to doubt the "learning" we had back then. Will it change again if another NES comes to work for us and say it another way?

It's a bit offensive too when they laugh at the test they are editing and mock the contents of the test-- as if their way is the correct way. Putting remarks like "ambiguous", "untrue", " no such thing", "this test is full of apple products" --- do not really help us.

[sirchai]

As a non NES, we accept corrections from a NES or from those knowledgeable enough. And believe me, we've been edited/corrected many times. The different NES opinions concern us because we are open to these knowledge -- old or new. We've known for some time that its "do aerobics" and here they go saying its incorrect. So we tend to doubt the "learning" we had back then. Will it change again if another NES comes to work for us and say it another way?

It's a bit offensive too when they laugh at the test they are editing and mock the contents of the test-- as if their way is the correct way. Putting remarks like "ambiguous", "untrue", " no such thing", "this test is full of apple products" --- do not really help us.

It's pretty easy to understand. A lot of people who're considered native English speakers believe only their own speech is right.

A good example might be: "If I were you"....or "If I was you".... An English guy was asking me what I'd use. My answer was clear and - I guess- right.

I said to him that you can only use "If I were you", as "If I was you" wouldn't be correct. ( You can't have been somebody else)

There's a difference between written and spoken English and guess what. The English guy taught his kids in an EP environment exactly the wrong version.

Please don't be serious about some foreigners. We all make mistakes, but it shouldn't happen that "teachers' change correct English into incorrect English.

Understandable that such ' remarks' make you upset. Might be time for some of them to 'do aerobics' in form of apologizing.-

[zeichen]

Unfortunately, just because someone is a native speaker doesn't mean that they know anything about the language. The average person doesn't usually think on how their own language is used.

I commonly say 2:45 as quarter of 3, but a more common expression would be a quarter to 3. However some native speakers have said that I was wrong and that no one ever says what I do. I said really, everyone where I am from says it that way. I didn't just make up a way of expressing time all on my own.

The other problem is that even educated native speakers who teach communicative English still my not be proper editors. It is a very special skill.

The other problem that I found like what Sirchai said and that is some native speakers think that their way is the most common or the only correct way. If someone says "NO one talks like that" you can probably ignore that teacher's input for the rest of your work relationship.

I do know a lot of British and Australian common expressions, but when I edit or give advice I make it quite clear that it is what I find more common and that there are many other ways of expressing any one idea.

I have read some text books that were Published by Oxford presses saying things like a "sucker" is the common expression for the candy on a stick that we lick or suck. But as an American I can honestly say that I have never heard it referred to as a sucker and what I know it as is a lollipop.

Even different parts of the US have different expressions for similar words, so there is no one right answer for anything.

Do your best like you do. Try to get the majority of the common mistakes and try and keep the questions as clear, simple as you can. Make sure that the answers don't have overlap and you will be alright.

I as a native speaker have had to edit some really poorly written tests but I try to do it with tact and do realize the amount of effort that the person writing the test put into it. So I tend to do it in batches. I found that it is very disheartening to have a paper returned with 100's of red marks on it.

The other thing is that most NES are only paid for their time in the classroom so editing is usually unpaid work unless they are full time contracted and it is a part of the duties. So some might take shortcuts. Writing ambiguous is fine and requires the writer to do more work which is actually better as an editor. You don't want to change a person's writing style or aesthetic you just want to clean up so it is a logical flow. But if it is just on a test style isn't as important and it isn't about authorship as it is about having an accurate assessment for the students. Perhaps when things like ambiguous are written you can ask the NES to come up with some answers that might be more precise and test the students comprehension better.

Most of the places that I have worked there has usually been resentment and division amongst Thai staff and foreign staff. It really pisses me off when foreign teachers criticize the communicative ability of the Thai staff.

One young guy I worked with started saying some awful stuff about their lack of education and ability and I turned to him and said, you do know that teacher right there (who was Thai) has a PhD in Literature from NYU? So I think that her English and knowledge of literature is a little more than your BA in Philosophy.

I am sorry for your trouble and wish that you had better quality NES teachers to work with.

I don't see why you would have a British or Irish teacher edit an American teacher's test. That sounds like a MMA extravaganza waiting to happen.

[sweetprof24]

Its a big relief to hear ( read ) your discerning words. We've worked with a lot of NES without much trouble but this year, we were not lucky. The agencies should really train and orient them before sending them to schools.

The thought of meeting and working again with this kind of NES ( newbies; "know it all"; "I'm king of English" kind )next term is dreadful. (The school wants the NES stay for a year because the school paid for the WP)

The American is only a substitute teacher - - the British and Irish thought the test came from him because he teaches that subject-- they had a grand time editing the paper ( the test was done by a former American teacher and a Filipino teacher )

Thank you to all. My faith in the NES sprung back to life..... it died when the Irish guy can't produce the performance records of his students because nobody told him to record the attendance of the students or record/ give grades for their classroom work.

[sirchai]

The agencies should really train and orient them before sending them to schools.

Gotta love your post!

Reality is that most agencies never get what schools would like to have to teach Thai students. Experienced teachers who know what they do and how they're doing their jobs.

I'd worked for one (agency,never again) many moons away and some colleagues were incredible.

One of them, home and money less, " was found" at a beach in Pattaya, when a van of this agency stopped and asked him if he wouldn't like to "become' an English teachers for them. ( Because he was from Alaska)

He spelled Wednesday : W e d s d a y!

( Forgive me, Jon) Then the Kee Mao ones. And and and....the two guys who had a motorbike accident with two students from the same school they 'worked' at. Intoxicated like hell.

I'd talk to your principal to think about hiring people directly. Cheaper and you'll get decent people. Well, your director might make less vacations in Europe, or elsewhere.

Agencies make business and they don't know their" teachers' ability" in teaching English. Good luck!-

Edited August 22, 2013 by sirchai

[Scott]

A post with a quote only, or with the remark inside the quote box, has been removed.

[lostinisaan]

My five cents to the question. The NES was and is wrong.I'm never wrong, because I worked for the biggest show agency located in Bangkok.

Their brochure looks really nice. Truth is that EVERYTHING else sucks. School directors go that way, because they've got their" goodies" and they usually don't care about the students' education.

What they care about is their own wallet. Nothing else matters.

You're a Thai teacher and most of us foreign teachers are criticized not knowing Thai culture, while most of you don't know much about other cultures.

Let them stand at the gate that all the parents know whom they got. "Teachers" in LOS are not really sought by their ability in teaching English. A good lookin' young guy/woman is always better than an older experienced teacher with the needed skills to educate students.

All the ASEAN learning and World Class Standard Schools are amazingly poor regarding their English skills.

Unfortunately, if Thai students evaluate foreign teachers at a high school, they mostly do that what he/she looks like. A teacher who really does a good job would fail, let's say giving them the grades they'd deserve.

ASEAN will take many jobs away, as Thai people are too busy trying not to lose face, instead of catching up with the 21st century.

How else can such a country employ around 20,000 Filipinos, with mostly poor English skills? Why wouldn't you give such a position to a teacher from your own country?

You get what you pay for. And most people working for agencies are not better than any Filipinos, who're in for the money to send it back home.

Tell this guy to take some aerobic classes in Thai dance.

Edited August 29, 2013 by lostinisaan