Our ultimate goal is to bring down the 'Thaksin regime'

[nicknostitz]

Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools.

Your assuming they are all violent?

Somehow, several hundred "violent" vocational students failed to be violent enough to make the news.

As the Lumpini protest is rather uneventful, most of the time, there are almost no journalists anymore stationed there permanently (other than the protesters own media, such as FM TV, T-News, and Blue Sky), as there were during the first one or two weeks.

No journos - no news.

Edited August 26, 2013 by nicknostitz

[Yunla]

Thaksin shouldn't be the subject of marches or alliance actions, Thaksin should be in prison for the crimes he was convicted of, and facing new trials for the long list of charges he slimed his way out of. He and his cuddle-buddy (fellow massmurderer and masstorturer Hun-Sen) should also be facing International Courts for massmurder, decimation of their nations' finances, and cessation of essential development leading to unneccessary and massive loss of life through poverty.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Yunla

[johnnie20110]

Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools.

Your assuming they are all violent?

Somehow, several hundred "violent" vocational students failed to be violent enough to make the news.

As the Lumpini protest is rather uneventful, most of the time, there are almost no journalists anymore stationed there permanently (other than the protesters own media, such as FM TV, T-News, and Blue Sky), as there were during the first one or two weeks.

No journos - no news.

No several hundred violent vocational students = no real journalists = no real news.

[whybother]

<snip>

As to the vocational students / Krating Daeng of then, most are actually allied with the Yellow Shirts (similar positions regarding defense of monarchy, etc), through whose Lun Pi - Lun Nong networks the students that were to be seen at Lumini came to join.

A few of the former Krating Daeng members i know of are with the Red Shirts.

<snip>

So even though some of the previous "Krating Daeng" are with the Red Shirts, you're still labeling the new vocational students as "Krating Daeng" even though they haven't actually done anything yet.

No bias to see here folks ... move along.

Edited August 26, 2013 by whybother

[nicknostitz]

<snip>

As to the vocational students / Krating Daeng of then, most are actually allied with the Yellow Shirts (similar positions regarding defense of monarchy, etc), through whose Lun Pi - Lun Nong networks the students that were to be seen at Lumini came to join.

A few of the former Krating Daeng members i know of are with the Red Shirts.

<snip>

So even though some of the previous "Krating Daeng" are with the Red Shirts, you're still labeling the new vocational students as "Krating Daeng" even though they haven't actually done anything yet.

No bias to see here folks ... move along.

I don't think i have labeled today's vocational school students as "Krating Daeng". Krating Daeng was then. While some former Krating Daeng are now allied with the Red Shirts, far more are allied with the Yellow Shirts.

Yet vocational students propensity for violence is well known, their bad reputation well deserved. Ignoring and/or obfuscating this fact just to make the side you support appear more acceptable than the side you do not support is plainly dishonest.

Given this context, the Democrat Party's open alliance with the group that drew in these students - the gloves are indeed thrown off now. Well, we can even see this reflected by many comments in this forum - in which some posters here have actually advocated and applauded a more violent approach by the government's opponents.

Edited August 26, 2013 by nicknostitz

[khunken]

The 'Blue shirts' et al.

So far no information that can be independently verified. Only the propaganda posted on Nick Nostitz's web site which had a few photos and a fully biased account of blue on red. That BS is used to justify the red shirts attack on the Asean venue.

Yes, I'm only starting to learn about this incident which is so 'elementary' that - if it really happened - is actually so insignificant in comparison to the red shirt group various militias' violence including killing a few defenceless people. There has been no media information about any blue shirt activities since.

I'm now well past giving Mr Nostitz the benefit of the doubt. The posting about vocational students was deliberately inaccurate as usual because it is so (historically) dangerous to recruit students who might wake up to the potential dictatorship which awaits them in future.

Edited August 26, 2013 by khunken

[nicknostitz]

on Nick Nostitz's web site

<snipped>

Ignoring the personal attacks here, one correction: the website i linked to is not my website, it's a website owned and run by two lecturers of the South East Asian studies department of the Australian National University, and hosted by that university.

I just occasionally publish articles there as a guest commentator. Most other guest commentators are lecturers, students, and the occasional journalist, who post on their fields of expertise. Mine is Thai street politics.

Edited August 26, 2013 by nicknostitz

[nicknostitz]

Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools.

Your assuming they are all violent?

Somehow, several hundred "violent" vocational students failed to be violent enough to make the news.

Funnily enough, they now did make it into the news:

Redshirts File Complaint After Attack By Anti-Govt Students

(26 August) The People’s Radio for Democracy filed a complaint to the police after some of its members were attacked by a group vocational students, who joined the People’s Army Against Thaksin’s Regime protest at Lumpini park.

Ms. Buppha Sirikaew, 68, who was among 4 other people who were injured by the students, said that her group was travelling from Victory Monument after the protest with the People’s Radio for Democracy ended.

While waiting at the traffic light near Lumpini Park, the group of 50-70 vocational students emerged from the park and pelted rocks, bottles, and other objects at the Redshirts convoy.

According to the police, the CCTV investigation is being conducted and those who engaged in the incident will be charged for injuring and harming lives and properties of other people.

The attacking students were among several thousand polytechnic students who swelled the ranks of the the People’s Army against Thaksin’s Regime protest at Lumpini Park. The group used yellow scarves and yellow headbands to identify themselves.

more of the story:

http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNM056VXpNREEzTWc9PQ==&sectionid=TURVd01BPT0=

[cdnvic]

Please refrain from attacking the poster. Stick to debating the issue.

[johnnie20110]

Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools.

Your assuming they are all violent?

Somehow, several hundred "violent" vocational students failed to be violent enough to make the news.

Funnily enough, they now did make it into the news:

While waiting at the traffic light near Lumpini Park, the group of 50-70 vocational students

The attacking students were among several thousand polytechnic students who swelled the ranks of the the Peoples Army against Thaksins Regime protest at Lumpini Park.

Unsurprisingly enough, the "hundreds" you described as attending were actually "several thousand".

Unsurprisingly enough, the "hundreds of violent students" you described were actually "50-70".

Unsurprisingly enough, more distortion of reality in your self-professed "field of expertise in street politics".

.

Edited August 26, 2013 by johnnie20110

[Rimmer]

One inflammatory post offering nothing to the topic removed

[scorecard]

The ultimate goal shouldn't be to "bring down the Thaksin regime." The ultimate goal should be to deliver benefits and service to the Thai people in a more fair and practical way.

True.... but they would argue it boils down to the same thing.

They need to reformulate their message. Its too negative. The problem is that they offer nothing better.

Well abhisit has recently, and on previous occasions, talked about serious reform of the dems, but as usual, for the dems, everything is so slow.

The last time, Chuan Leek pai was PM he was broadly respected and seen as mr clean, but one of the things that ultimately pulled him down was his very slow pace. So much so that his slowness became the main discussion point when folks talked about him, I recall it well.

Further, from my understanding, it's part of the way the dems have always worked to go through too many steps, including taking every tiny item to the senior elders of the party, pretty much always just accepting what the seniors / elders of the party decided with no challenge, all taking way too long and also meaning no new thinking.

IMHO abhisit and korn and there's a few more, could be a serious challenge to the paymasters regime and could take Thailand forward with benefits for all, mostly meaning raising the quality of life for a large % of the populace. But they need to get over their 'don't challenge the elders' approach, and they need to do it today.

I challenge the notion the both abhisit and korn just want to solidly the hold of the 'Bangkok elite' (whatever that means). In fact they have both on many occasions, talked about sharing the wealth, lifting quality of life for all / reducing the gap. In fact both come across to me as a small s socialists.

[nicknostitz]

Well abhisit has recently, and on previous occasions, talked about serious reform of the dems, but as usual, for the dems, everything is so slow.

The last time, Chuan Leek pai was PM he was broadly respected and seen as mr clean, but one of the things that ultimately pulled him down was his very slow pace. So much so that his slowness became the main discussion point when folks talked about him, I recall it well.

Further, from my understanding, it's part of the way the dems have always worked to go through too many steps, including taking every tiny item to the senior elders of the party, pretty much always just accepting what the seniors / elders of the party decided with no challenge, all taking way too long and also meaning no new thinking.

IMHO abhisit and korn and there's a few more, could be a serious challenge to the paymasters regime and could take Thailand forward with benefits for all, mostly meaning raising the quality of life for a large % of the populace. But they need to get over their 'don't challenge the elders' approach, and they need to do it today.

I challenge the notion the both abhisit and korn just want to solidly the hold of the 'Bangkok elite' (whatever that means). In fact they have both on many occasions, talked about sharing the wealth, lifting quality of life for all / reducing the gap. In fact both come across to me as a small s socialists.

Unfortunately Abhisit and Korn have utterly entrenched themselves in the hardcore faction of the Democrat Party. While both always sound reasonable and progressive when talking to the foreign media, their actions are more telling. If you listen to Abhisit's speeches on the Blue Sky stages - they are increasingly spiked with profanity as well (less so though than of others such as Satit Wongnongtoey, Suthep, etc). Korn has always supported and applauded the PAD and the various other Yellow groups such as Pitak Siam.

There are more reasonable factions in the Democrat Party, but they are silenced. Alongkorn, for example has in the past year made many important suggestions of how to reform the Democrat Party, but has been silenced. Sukhumband has also been a person with very moderate ideas, and has been parked at the mostly ceremonial Bangkok governor position, from which he even nearly was pushed away from before the recent elections.

Since 2006 the Democrat Party has been in the hand of the radicals, the ultra-conservatives, the ultra-royalists. Just watch Blue Sky TV, watch the hate speech there, and the profanities.

This is extremely worrying. While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat), the one thing they have to do - reforming their party to win national elections one day - the do not.

Even if they would be successful (which i doubt) with toppling this government, it will sooner or later come back down to elections. And there, the Democrat Party is simply not prepared to compete against the highly sophisticated election machine of the PTP Thailand, like every country that aspires to be democratic, needs at least two parties who are able to compete in elections. But Thailand has just one - the TRT/PPP/PTP. That the Democrats are not able to transform themselves into a relevant alternative is not the fault of Thaksin, but solely the fault of shortsightedness of the present powers within the Democrat Party.

[longway]

The ultimate goal shouldn't be to "bring down the Thaksin regime." The ultimate goal should be to deliver benefits and service to the Thai people in a more fair and practical way.

True.... but they would argue it boils down to the same thing.

They need to reformulate their message. Its too negative. The problem is that they offer nothing better.

Well abhisit has recently, and on previous occasions, talked about serious reform of the dems, but as usual, for the dems, everything is so slow.

The last time, Chuan Leek pai was PM he was broadly respected and seen as mr clean, but one of the things that ultimately pulled him down was his very slow pace. So much so that his slowness became the main discussion point when folks talked about him, I recall it well.

Further, from my understanding, it's part of the way the dems have always worked to go through too many steps, including taking every tiny item to the senior elders of the party, pretty much always just accepting what the seniors / elders of the party decided with no challenge, all taking way too long and also meaning no new thinking.

IMHO abhisit and korn and there's a few more, could be a serious challenge to the paymasters regime and could take Thailand forward with benefits for all, mostly meaning raising the quality of life for a large % of the populace. But they need to get over their 'don't challenge the elders' approach, and they need to do it today.

I challenge the notion the both abhisit and korn just want to solidly the hold of the 'Bangkok elite' (whatever that means). In fact they have both on many occasions, talked about sharing the wealth, lifting quality of life for all / reducing the gap. In fact both come across to me as a small s socialists.

They they want people to come out and support them, they need to have have something to cheer for rather than just boo against, its psychology 101.

[longway]

Sukhumband has also been a person with very moderate ideas, and has been parked at the mostly ceremonial Bangkok governor position, from which he even nearly was pushed away from before the recent elections.

This doesn't make much sense. Its not as if Sukhumband could do anything else, he was talking about resigning from politics was he not?. Pushed away? He was lucky that he was chosen again. You don't think Korn, whatever his actual views, would have made a much more appealing candidate for voters who would consider democrats. I thought it was Suthep who blocked Korn's candidacy.

[nicknostitz]

Sukhumband has also been a person with very moderate ideas, and has been parked at the mostly ceremonial Bangkok governor position, from which he even nearly was pushed away from before the recent elections.

This doesn't make much sense. Its not as if Sukhumband could do anything else, he was talking about resigning from politics was he not?. Pushed away? He was lucky that he was chosen again. You don't think Korn, whatever his actual views, would have made a much more appealing candidate for voters who would consider democrats. I thought it was Suthep who blocked Korn's candidacy.

Korn has much higher aspirations than being a mere Bangkok governor candidate.

Look up the newspaper articles of then, when many in the party thought that Sukhumband was not the best candidate, and wanted to chose others (Korn's name was suggested then, but he declined). Sukhumband had to fight quite hard to keep his position as candidate.

Many people hoped that Sukhumband would be appointed Foreign minister (instead of Kasit). Sukhumband is also respected across the political lines, and has shown quite a bit of political courage. He has, for example, held a speech at a Prachatai fundraiser back in 2009, which was very good. In 2010, Sukhumband has several times walked into the Rajaprasong protest area for negotiations with the Red Shirt leaders. He walked in there with a minimum of security (maybe one or two body guards), and was not once attacked or insulted by protesters.

[longway]

^ His difficulty in being re-nominated can be for his lack of fresh appeal as much as his his 'moderate' views, can it not? Its not as f he did such a great job as governor and people were enthused by him running again.You are certainly right about Korn having greater ambitions, but in my memory his name was mentioned as a possible candidate, and I don't remember him turning it down, but Suthep (among others) insisting that Sukhumband be renominated.

If Abhisit is such an 'hard core ultra royalist conservative why is he hated by the PAD? Why did the PAD effectively work against the democrats in the last election if the democrats are as you say?

I think this ultra-royalist label is dished out too readily, anyone who says anything other than "amart they bad, oh so bad" is labelled an 'ultra-royalist'. Its almost cute the way its used.

In another era or country it would something akin to calling your political opponent a 'nigger-lover' or 'communist'.

I don't particularly like the democrats the way they are now, but I think their internal politics goes well beyond what you described. However you would know more than me, so I continue to read what you say with interest.

There is so much hate and negativity on both sides.

[Thai at Heart]

The ultimate goal shouldn't be to "bring down the Thaksin regime." The ultimate goal should be to deliver benefits and service to the Thai people in a more fair and practical way.

True.... but they would argue it boils down to the same thing.

They need to reformulate their message. Its too negative. The problem is that they offer nothing better.

Well abhisit has recently, and on previous occasions, talked about serious reform of the dems, but as usual, for the dems, everything is so slow.

The last time, Chuan Leek pai was PM he was broadly respected and seen as mr clean, but one of the things that ultimately pulled him down was his very slow pace. So much so that his slowness became the main discussion point when folks talked about him, I recall it well.

Further, from my understanding, it's part of the way the dems have always worked to go through too many steps, including taking every tiny item to the senior elders of the party, pretty much always just accepting what the seniors / elders of the party decided with no challenge, all taking way too long and also meaning no new thinking.

IMHO abhisit and korn and there's a few more, could be a serious challenge to the paymasters regime and could take Thailand forward with benefits for all, mostly meaning raising the quality of life for a large % of the populace. But they need to get over their 'don't challenge the elders' approach, and they need to do it today.

I challenge the notion the both abhisit and korn just want to solidly the hold of the 'Bangkok elite' (whatever that means). In fact they have both on many occasions, talked about sharing the wealth, lifting quality of life for all / reducing the gap. In fact both come across to me as a small s socialists.

When you have to check policy and planning with 10 entities that stand outside the party, progress can be very slow.

[johnnie20110]

While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat)

Unsurprising to hear echoing of red shirt leader/Deputy Agriculture Minister Nathawut uncorroborated and unproven assertion that the rubber farmers protests are a Democrat party plot to discredit the government.

This completely discounts their very valid and real concerns over price as well as completing ignoring the geographic spread of the rubber farmer protests, which now includes the red shirt heartland of Issan in Udon Thani and Korat.

Rather than properly respond to a valid issue in a responsible governmental manner, he attempts to flippantly dismiss it as portraying it as something else, without a shred of evidence.

Edited August 27, 2013 by johnnie20110

[Nickymaster]

While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat)

Unsurprising to hear echoing of red shirt leader/Deputy Agriculture Minister Nathawut uncorroborated and unproven assertion that the rubber farmers protests are a Democrat party plot to discredit the government.

This completely discounts their very valid and real concerns over price as well as completing ignoring the geographic spread of the rubber farmer protests, which now includes the red shirt heartland of Issan in Udon Thani and Korat.

Rather than properly respond to a valid issue in a responsible governmental manner, he attempts to flippantly dismiss it as portraying it as something else, without a shred of evidence.

Bravo!

Nick has full understanding of tactics used by his fellow red shirts to get attention but rubber farmers , who have been begging to be heard for more than a year know, are labeled as a group that wants to overthrow the government with violent tactics.

The rubber farmers only need help. They don't care who is the government.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Nickymaster

[nicknostitz]

^ His difficulty in being re-nominated can be for his lack of fresh appeal as much as his his 'moderate' views, can it not? Its not as f he did such a great job as governor and people were enthused by him running again.You are certainly right about Korn having greater ambitions, but in my memory his name was mentioned as a possible candidate, and I don't remember him turning it down, but Suthep (among others) insisting that Sukhumband be renominated.

If Abhisit is such an 'hard core ultra royalist conservative why is he hated by the PAD? Why did the PAD effectively work against the democrats in the last election if the democrats are as you say?

I think this ultra-royalist label is dished out too readily, anyone who says anything other than "amart they bad, oh so bad" is labelled an 'ultra-royalist'. Its almost cute the way its used.

In another era or country it would something akin to calling your political opponent a 'nigger-lover' or 'communist'.

I don't particularly like the democrats the way they are now, but I think their internal politics goes well beyond what you described. However you would know more than me, so I continue to read what you say with interest.

There is so much hate and negativity on both sides.

I don't think that Abhisit personally is an ultra-royalist. I think he is liberal-conservative. But he is deeply entrenched in the ultra-royalist factions, and at least on the stage, he increasingly uses their lingo. This becomes immediately obvious if you attend the Blue Sky rallies (more than 60 stages since their start in June 2012), and listen to the speeches.

Of course not all MP's in that group are ultra-royalists. I have spoken with many younger MP's - foreign educated, polished, intelligent, but with very little exposure to the life and culture of the common Thai citizen. But - they go along with this course, which i find very destructive, both to the DP itself, and the stability of the country.

The PAD - DP alliance is a on-off situation. In 2008 Abhisit personally, with Khunying Kalaya and others, walked from parliament to Government House, where they have helped stalling an ongoing dispersal action by the police, giving the PAD time to regroup, charge the police, and send the officers off the streets (and before anyone accuses me again of spreading Red propaganda - i was there and photographed it).

In 2011 the PAD has protested against Abihist. But already soon after the elections the different yellow shirt factions and subgroups have already organized events together (Siam Sammakhi, Pitak Siam, the rallies at parliament in May/June 2012 - where i photographed Suthep and other DP luminaries walking through the PAD, and being applauded by PAD protesters).

If you look at the DP/Blue Sky stages, and the different Yellow subgroup stages, you may notice for example that on many levels not just the same people attend, but that also many of the guards are shared. The relationship between the PAD, the different yellow subgroups and the DP is complex, and based more on a common hatred than any shared future vision over Thailand. Sort of - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That is why the easiest common denominators are expressing what they hate, and the rallying call of protecting the monarchy.

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

There are many in the DP who did not agree with the hardline approach in 2010, and who would prefer to start over without Abhisit, and especially without Suthep.

As to Sukhumband and the position as Bangkok governor - nobody can do a stellar job in that position, as it is a job with almost no real power over anything. While he may not be "sexy" on the stage, no abilities to rouse the masses, i personally appreciate his intelligence, his fine sense of humor, his very moderate views - all points that do not suit the present course of the DP.

[jaidam]

Korn has much higher aspirations than being a mere Bangkok governor candidate.

Look up the newspaper articles of then, when many in the party thought that Sukhumband was not the best candidate, and wanted to chose others (Korn's name was suggested then, but he declined). Sukhumband had to fight quite hard to keep his position as candidate.

Many people hoped that Sukhumband would be appointed Foreign minister (instead of Kasit). Sukhumband is also respected across the political lines, and has shown quite a bit of political courage. He has, for example, held a speech at a Prachatai fundraiser back in 2009, which was very good. In 2010, Sukhumband has several times walked into the Rajaprasong protest area for negotiations with the Red Shirt leaders. He walked in there with a minimum of security (maybe one or two body guards), and was not once attacked or insulted by protesters.

"Korn has much higher aspirations..."

Korn is not the first person that comes to mind when "much higher aspirations" are mentioned.

"Sukhumband is also respected across the political lines".

Which explains how during the Bkk governor elections when opinion poll results worried his excellency in exile, the PTP campaign started focusing on and smearing Sukhumband for looking like a retard.

Honestly, and I mean this with the greatest respect, your posts are pure fantasy. Until you understand the why, the motive, you will only be looking at small portions of the larger picture. The reason for the farce that is Thai politics is one mans lust for power, face and revenge. Red wildebeasts and blue denim are irrelevant at best, much like gingerbread tires, peppermint bamboo barricades, and pretty maids all in a row.

[Thai at Heart]

^ His difficulty in being re-nominated can be for his lack of fresh appeal as much as his his 'moderate' views, can it not? Its not as f he did such a great job as governor and people were enthused by him running again.You are certainly right about Korn having greater ambitions, but in my memory his name was mentioned as a possible candidate, and I don't remember him turning it down, but Suthep (among others) insisting that Sukhumband be renominated.

If Abhisit is such an 'hard core ultra royalist conservative why is he hated by the PAD? Why did the PAD effectively work against the democrats in the last election if the democrats are as you say?

I think this ultra-royalist label is dished out too readily, anyone who says anything other than "amart they bad, oh so bad" is labelled an 'ultra-royalist'. Its almost cute the way its used.

In another era or country it would something akin to calling your political opponent a 'nigger-lover' or 'communist'.

I don't particularly like the democrats the way they are now, but I think their internal politics goes well beyond what you described. However you would know more than me, so I continue to read what you say with interest.

There is so much hate and negativity on both sides.

I don't think that Abhisit personally is an ultra-royalist. I think he is liberal-conservative. But he is deeply entrenched in the ultra-royalist factions, and at least on the stage, he increasingly uses their lingo. This becomes immediately obvious if you attend the Blue Sky rallies (more than 60 stages since their start in June 2012), and listen to the speeches.

Of course not all MP's in that group are ultra-royalists. I have spoken with many younger MP's - foreign educated, polished, intelligent, but with very little exposure to the life and culture of the common Thai citizen. But - they go along with this course, which i find very destructive, both to the DP itself, and the stability of the country.

The PAD - DP alliance is a on-off situation. In 2008 Abhisit personally, with Khunying Kalaya and others, walked from parliament to Government House, where they have helped stalling an ongoing dispersal action by the police, giving the PAD time to regroup, charge the police, and send the officers off the streets (and before anyone accuses me again of spreading Red propaganda - i was there and photographed it).

In 2011 the PAD has protested against Abihist. But already soon after the elections the different yellow shirt factions and subgroups have already organized events together (Siam Sammakhi, Pitak Siam, the rallies at parliament in May/June 2012 - where i photographed Suthep and other DP luminaries walking through the PAD, and being applauded by PAD protesters).

If you look at the DP/Blue Sky stages, and the different Yellow subgroup stages, you may notice for example that on many levels not just the same people attend, but that also many of the guards are shared. The relationship between the PAD, the different yellow subgroups and the DP is complex, and based more on a common hatred than any shared future vision over Thailand. Sort of - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That is why the easiest common denominators are expressing what they hate, and the rallying call of protecting the monarchy.

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

There are many in the DP who did not agree with the hardline approach in 2010, and who would prefer to start over without Abhisit, and especially without Suthep.

As to Sukhumband and the position as Bangkok governor - nobody can do a stellar job in that position, as it is a job with almost no real power over anything. While he may not be "sexy" on the stage, no abilities to rouse the masses, i personally appreciate his intelligence, his fine sense of humor, his very moderate views - all points that do not suit the present course of the DP.

The problem with claiming to be pro royal is that it's not a policy and by definition it means that you are claiming that the other guys aren't pro royal even though you can't prove it.

The dems should lay off the monarchy discussion, it doesn't win elections and us akin to claiming the sky is falling.

It's a little like bringing religious issues of conscience into politics and turning them into black and white policy discussions such as abortion or gay rights. It is not a political discussion and does not won votes.

[nicknostitz]

While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat)

Unsurprising to hear echoing of red shirt leader/Deputy Agriculture Minister Nathawut uncorroborated and unproven assertion that the rubber farmers protests are a Democrat party plot to discredit the government.

This completely discounts their very valid and real concerns over price as well as completing ignoring the geographic spread of the rubber farmer protests, which now includes the red shirt heartland of Issan in Udon Thani and Korat.

Rather than properly respond to a valid issue in a responsible governmental manner, he attempts to flippantly dismiss it as portraying it as something else, without a shred of evidence.

No shred of evidence? Ridiculous.

Just read the papers and watch the news please - Democrat MP's were reported to have been at the protests, many Democrat MP's have openly declared their support, Blue Sky TV and T-News - both modeled by the Democrat Party and supporters on ASTV and Asia Update as propaganda spokes-pieces for the DP - are deeply involved, and openly take sides with the protesters (just watch their coverage - i spent several hours watching it yesterday night).

[Nickymaster]

^ His difficulty in being re-nominated can be for his lack of fresh appeal as much as his his 'moderate' views, can it not? Its not as f he did such a great job as governor and people were enthused by him running again.You are certainly right about Korn having greater ambitions, but in my memory his name was mentioned as a possible candidate, and I don't remember him turning it down, but Suthep (among others) insisting that Sukhumband be renominated.

If Abhisit is such an 'hard core ultra royalist conservative why is he hated by the PAD? Why did the PAD effectively work against the democrats in the last election if the democrats are as you say?

I think this ultra-royalist label is dished out too readily, anyone who says anything other than "amart they bad, oh so bad" is labelled an 'ultra-royalist'. Its almost cute the way its used.

In another era or country it would something akin to calling your political opponent a 'nigger-lover' or 'communist'.

I don't particularly like the democrats the way they are now, but I think their internal politics goes well beyond what you described. However you would know more than me, so I continue to read what you say with interest.

There is so much hate and negativity on both sides.

I don't think that Abhisit personally is an ultra-royalist. I think he is liberal-conservative. But he is deeply entrenched in the ultra-royalist factions, and at least on the stage, he increasingly uses their lingo. This becomes immediately obvious if you attend the Blue Sky rallies (more than 60 stages since their start in June 2012), and listen to the speeches.

Of course not all MP's in that group are ultra-royalists. I have spoken with many younger MP's - foreign educated, polished, intelligent, but with very little exposure to the life and culture of the common Thai citizen. But - they go along with this course, which i find very destructive, both to the DP itself, and the stability of the country.

The PAD - DP alliance is a on-off situation. In 2008 Abhisit personally, with Khunying Kalaya and others, walked from parliament to Government House, where they have helped stalling an ongoing dispersal action by the police, giving the PAD time to regroup, charge the police, and send the officers off the streets (and before anyone accuses me again of spreading Red propaganda - i was there and photographed it).

In 2011 the PAD has protested against Abihist. But already soon after the elections the different yellow shirt factions and subgroups have already organized events together (Siam Sammakhi, Pitak Siam, the rallies at parliament in May/June 2012 - where i photographed Suthep and other DP luminaries walking through the PAD, and being applauded by PAD protesters).

If you look at the DP/Blue Sky stages, and the different Yellow subgroup stages, you may notice for example that on many levels not just the same people attend, but that also many of the guards are shared. The relationship between the PAD, the different yellow subgroups and the DP is complex, and based more on a common hatred than any shared future vision over Thailand. Sort of - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That is why the easiest common denominators are expressing what they hate, and the rallying call of protecting the monarchy.

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

There are many in the DP who did not agree with the hardline approach in 2010, and who would prefer to start over without Abhisit, and especially without Suthep.

As to Sukhumband and the position as Bangkok governor - nobody can do a stellar job in that position, as it is a job with almost no real power over anything. While he may not be "sexy" on the stage, no abilities to rouse the masses, i personally appreciate his intelligence, his fine sense of humor, his very moderate views - all points that do not suit the present course of the DP.

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

Come on please stop with this propaganda. You are clearly looking desperate. Nobody in the international community has ever said something bad about the DP and Abhisit EVEN after the crackdown. For every article you can show me that the international perception about the DP has changed after 2010, I give you 2 articles about what the international press thinks about Thaksin and the Red shirts after 2010.

As you know most foreigners on this forum support DP and Abhisit.

I will tell you a secret, if this corrupt, self serving government keeps on mismanaging this beautiful country, they will bring themselves down. This could happen sooner than you think. Don't underestimate the mess this country is in at the moment. So far PT has done a lot of damage the last 2 years. Any PM with some dignity would have resigned by now. This one is clearly not qualified.

Or do you think Yingluck is doing a good job?

Edited August 27, 2013 by Nickymaster

[nicknostitz]

"Korn has much higher aspirations..."

Korn is not the first person that comes to mind when "much higher aspirations" are mentioned.

"Sukhumband is also respected across the political lines".

Which explains how during the Bkk governor elections when opinion poll results worried his excellency in exile, the PTP campaign started focusing on and smearing Sukhumband for looking like a retard.

Honestly, and I mean this with the greatest respect, your posts are pure fantasy. Until you understand the why, the motive, you will only be looking at small portions of the larger picture. The reason for the farce that is Thai politics is one mans lust for power, face and revenge. Red wildebeasts and blue denim are irrelevant at best, much like gingerbread tires, peppermint bamboo barricades, and pretty maids all in a row.

Oh, my...

You cannot take politics at face value.

Of course during election campaigns opponents discredit each other in public.

That happens everywhere.

And again, i am afraid the present struggle is far more complex than your feeble attempt to reduce it to a simplistic good vs. evil fairytale.

[Nickymaster]

While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat)

Unsurprising to hear echoing of red shirt leader/Deputy Agriculture Minister Nathawut uncorroborated and unproven assertion that the rubber farmers protests are a Democrat party plot to discredit the government.

This completely discounts their very valid and real concerns over price as well as completing ignoring the geographic spread of the rubber farmer protests, which now includes the red shirt heartland of Issan in Udon Thani and Korat.

Rather than properly respond to a valid issue in a responsible governmental manner, he attempts to flippantly dismiss it as portraying it as something else, without a shred of evidence.

No shred of evidence? Ridiculous.

Just read the papers and watch the news please - Democrat MP's were reported to have been at the protests, many Democrat MP's have openly declared their support, Blue Sky TV and T-News - both modeled by the Democrat Party and supporters on ASTV and Asia Update as propaganda spokes-pieces for the DP - are deeply involved, and openly take sides with the protesters (just watch their coverage - i spent several hours watching it yesterday night).

Do you know what you wrote? Democrat MPs have been at the protest. Democrats MPs support the rubber farmers.

With evidence jonnie means: proof that the democrats use the rubber farmers to overthrow the government using violent tactics, as you stated in your earlier post. (I believe).

So clearly no evidence in your reply.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Nickymaster

[nicknostitz]

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

Come on please stop with this propaganda. You are clearly looking desperate. Nobody in the international community has ever said something bad about the DP and Abhisit EVEN after the crackdown. For every article you can show me that the international perception about the DP has changed after 2010, I give you 2 articles about what the international press thinks about Thaksin and the Red shirts after 2010.

As you know most foreigners on this forum support DP and Abhisit.

I will tell you a secret, if this corrupt, self serving government keeps on mismanaging this beautiful country, they will bring themselves down. This could happen sooner than you think. Don't underestimate the mess this country is in at the moment. So far PT has done a lot of damage the last 2 years. Any PM with some dignity would have resigned by now. She is clearly not qualified.

Or do you think yingluck is doing a good job?

Of course i am aware that most on this forum here support DP and Abhisit.

There is a slight irony though that i may be the only person posting here who has talked with Abhisit and many other DP MP's on many occasions.

As to your claims on a positive international perception in the media after 2010 - is that why CNN and BBC and many other foreign publications were serial attacked by the DP, their supporters, and by many here on the forum as well. Don't you remember?

Have you read the recent Fuller article? The preceding Op-ed in the NY Times "Can Egypt learn from Thailand?" ?

On another level of foreign perception i would suggest to have a look at the level of diplomacy, look that straight after the 2011 elections countries that have barred Thaksin from entering have lifted that ban (such as Germany), look at the number of visits by foreign delegations before the 2011 elections, and after, especially the rank of members of these delegations. There are certain subtleties in diplomacy which probably might escape you.

So far Yingluck has managed to keep Thailand relatively peaceful, has somewhat smoothed over the strained relationship between PT and the military, so in those aspects she has done a good job. In the rice pledge conflict the government has not exactly done very well. But in the end - it is not up to me or you - but entirely up to the Thai voters to decide if she has done a good or bad job.

Edited August 27, 2013 by nicknostitz

[nicknostitz]

Do you know what you wrote? Democrat MPs have been at the protest. Democrats MPs support the rubber farmers.

With evidence jonnie means: proof that the democrats use the rubber farmers to overthrow the government using violent tactics, as you stated in your earlier post. (I believe).

So clearly no evidence in your reply.

And, yet again, what you believe is wrong as you haven't read what i posted. I stated that the DP party is in alliance with the rubber farmers. Which it is.

I have stated that the rubber farmers have used violent tactics. Which they have - just watch the video clips.

There is no evidence that the DP has organized the whole thing, so far. But there is quite clear evidence that the DP is attempting to politicize the protest.

Edited August 27, 2013 by nicknostitz

[Nickymaster]

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

Come on please stop with this propaganda. You are clearly looking desperate. Nobody in the international community has ever said something bad about the DP and Abhisit EVEN after the crackdown. For every article you can show me that the international perception about the DP has changed after 2010, I give you 2 articles about what the international press thinks about Thaksin and the Red shirts after 2010.

As you know most foreigners on this forum support DP and Abhisit.

I will tell you a secret, if this corrupt, self serving government keeps on mismanaging this beautiful country, they will bring themselves down. This could happen sooner than you think. Don't underestimate the mess this country is in at the moment. So far PT has done a lot of damage the last 2 years. Any PM with some dignity would have resigned by now. She is clearly not qualified.

Or do you think yingluck is doing a good job?

Of course i am aware that most on this forum here support DP and Abhisit.

There is a slight irony though that i may be the only person posting here who has talked with Abhisit and many other DP MP's on many occasions.

As to your claims on a positive international perception in the media after 2010 - is that why CNN and BBC and many other foreign publications were serial attacked by the DP, their supporters, and by many here on the forum as well. Don't you remember?

Have you read the recent Fuller article? The preceding Op-ed in the NY Times "Can Egypt learn from Thailand?" ?

On another level of foreign perception i would suggest to have a look at the level of diplomacy, look that straight after the 2011 elections countries that have barred Thaksin from entering have lifted that ban (such as Germany), look at the number of visits by foreign delegations before the 2011 elections, and after, especially the rank of members of these delegations. There are certain subtleties in diplomacy which probably might escape you.

So far Yingluck has managed to keep Thailand relatively peaceful, has somewhat smoothed over the strained relationship between PT and the military, so in those aspects she has done a good job. In the rice pledge conflict the government has not exactly done very well. But in the end - it is not up to me but entirely up to the Thai voters to decide if she has done a good or bad job.

You are aware that most on this forum here support DP and Abhisit. Aren't we (also) representing the international community?

If Abhisit was so bad, why did Kofi Anan meet him early 2012 and support him. Who in the international community has ever said that Abhisit should face the court in The Hague because of what happened in 2010? (besides Robert Amsterdam, Thaksin and the Red shirts). There are many more articles written by the BBC and CNN (or anybody else in the world) that talk bad about the actions of Thaksin and his Red shirts. You don't remember?

And last but not least, it's not up to you to Judge Yingluck but you judge Abhisit on a daily basis. Strange. Just like you claim to have met everybody, seen it all, but have no images of the MIB.

Now I know that it doesn't make sense to debate Thai politics with you because you only support the reds.

http://kofiannanfoundation.org/newsroom/press/2012/02/statement-kofi-annan-and-martti-ahtisaari-their-visit-to-bangkok

Edited August 27, 2013 by Nickymaster