Are border officers required to allow valid visas, or do they have discretion?

[dighambara]

They can always refuse entry but would normally have a very good reason for doing so.

Good to know. The irony of the whole thing was after getting a shaking head and disgusted look from the border official, I ended up catching a ride to Udon Thani with an immigration officer. Didn't know that until I was in his truck, seen the "Royal Thai Police" decals, his "Customs" baseball cap, business cards, etc.

No idea who he was, but after listening into a few of his phone conversations, I'm pretty sure he was definitely on the higher-end of the pay scale. Really nice guy though.

I think there's a chance the immigration officers / police have a deal worked out with that bus from Nong Khai to the Laos border. Around 4:30 - 5pm, all of a sudden the buses stop coming. Then the immigration officers (who are just getting off work) are nice enough to lend us foreigners a hand, in getting us to Nong Khai or Udon.... for a fee of course. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong though.

I've been thru the checkpoint at the bridge twice - walked up and had no problems either way.

As for local Immigration - years ago, the MaeSai District Colonel of Immigration would grant extensions of stay (indefinite) and those extensions were considered valid in Bangkok.

So, YES, the local personnel have the power to make significant decisions, without approval from Bangkok.

Edited August 31, 2013 by dighambara

[guavagirl]

it would be good to get the NON B Business visa without having to go all the way without the work permit etc....but this is probably not possible???

Not possible. Actually, on a couple of occasions while doing my 90-day border run the immigration officer has asked to see my work permit to ensure that I in fact have one. If I didn't no doubt I would have been refused entry on a valid visa.

Many people go through the process of getting a Non Imm-B and WP and then later hand it the WP but keep the multiple entry B visa. They are now starting to crack down on this.

[GeorgeO]

Maybe the officer was thinking, "This African guy has been coming to Thailand for 10 years, twice to work and Non B Business, and now he is here to go to school?"

Just sayin.

In the ten years that I have been living in Thailand, and contributing to this forum, I have always observed that those who finish their posts with "just saying" or "just sayin" do so because they are fully aware that their post is intentionally provocative.

I just can't help but wonder why anyone who doesn't have anything constructive to add to the topic bothers to post at all.

Of course, that's me "just saying"....!

[ubonjoe]

To be denied entry is not up to the officer that checks your passport. It would probably require an officer of a certain rank to do it. It certainly would not be non com officer.

I am also certain there would be a significant amount of paperwork needed. With a copy given to the person being denied entry with a thorough explanation given as to why it was done.

Edited August 31, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Samaaw]

Just a short story: Returning from a trip out of Thailand, the immigration official looked at my visa (NON B ED - Education visa) which is on its 2nd year and has a multi entry stamp with it. She then said to me to step one side and called her senior, who told me I cannot have this visa. I asked why not to which he replied "you cannot have this visa". After several attempts to ask the reason he kept saying "You cannot have this visa" - I waited for a while - he wrote some report and stamped something into my passport - I was then led away to the Thai Airways desk and had to buy a ticket out of the country, which I did.

I asked the Thai Airways lady what the stamp was which the immigration guy put in my passport - she told me "insufficient funds to enter Thailand"

I was not asked at anytime to produce any statement of bank account and my visa was not cancelled....

I left Thailand to return the following day... I entered without any issue !!

So that is how they are - sometimes I wonder if they have any clue what they are doing !!

Another short story about Immigration officials.

I was on my 5th or 6th trip (over 2 years) to Jakarta to see my daughter and ex (both Indonesians) and was stopped briefly at Immigration as the official looked at his computer for 4 or 5 minutes till his buddy told him to hit a key or 2 and then I was stamped in. Walked to luggage and was outside when 2 officers came and got me and brought me back inside where I was interrogated. They told me I was black listed. (10 years ago my passport was stolen and it wound up in the hands of an international drug trafficker who was caught and was doing time in Bali. I know cause US Immigration told me this when they issued me the new passport back in'94). Why they blacklisted me along with the Nigerian who was drug running with a stolen passport is a mystery.

I showed them the many entry stamps, and calmly explained there is a mistake. Then more and more officers came into the room. My passport was examined under blacklight and told it was 'Tampered with'. Well... I thought about it and they were kinda right... I explained that the Embassy had added pages, but they did not like this.

Denied entry. They stamped me out. (I was already stamped in). Then I was held in a small room until the evening flight when I was escorted by police onto the plane, much to the amusement of fellow passengers and people in the airport.

I now think the first guy was looking for some money. Alone in a room, if I had thought quick enough I might have slipped a couple hundred $ into the book. I knew I had nothing to hide. But once there were 5 or 6 guys involved it got intimidating.

I got a new passport and have not had any problems since.

To add to this and my story: I was never held in a room, I was taken to the Thai Airways desk at transit counter and left there (alone) - where I bought the ticket out. I could of probably just turned around and tried to come in again there and then but was a bit worried they might stop me again.

I have also since this whole issue, applied for a new passport to get "away" from the stamp "insufficient funds"

[Samaaw]

Maybe the officer was thinking, "This African guy has been coming to Thailand for 10 years, twice to work and Non B Business, and now he is here to go to school?"

Just sayin.

In the ten years that I have been living in Thailand, and contributing to this forum, I have always observed that those who finish their posts with "just saying" or "just sayin" do so because they are fully aware that their post is intentionally provocative.

I just can't help but wonder why anyone who doesn't have anything constructive to add to the topic bothers to post at all.

Of course, that's me "just saying"....!

This I have also seen when reading posts as well as the other member who mentioned "some african guy" because I am South African (by birth) - probably they think I am black - however I am white and of German parents. This also makes me think that there is some prejudice amongst some members here.... some days ago there was an article on the forum about how farangs don't stick together.... goes to show how some are by the replies to my initial posting that we are pretty much alone and there is no community amongst farangs who live in Thailand to support each other - even by just offering some advice instead of judging and scrutinizing posts.... sadly !

[Samaaw]

it would be good to get the NON B Business visa without having to go all the way without the work permit etc....but this is probably not possible???

Not possible. Actually, on a couple of occasions while doing my 90-day border run the immigration officer has asked to see my work permit to ensure that I in fact have one. If I didn't no doubt I would have been refused entry on a valid visa.

Many people go through the process of getting a Non Imm-B and WP and then later hand it the WP but keep the multiple entry B visa. They are now starting to crack down on this.

Thanks - this also reaffirms other enquiries I have made re the NON B Business visa

[Samaaw]

To be denied entry is not up to the officer that checks your passport. It would probably require an officer of a certain rank to do it. It certainly would not be non com officer. I am also certain there would be a significant amount of paperwork needed. With a copy given to the person being denied entry with a thorough explanation given as to why it was done.

The officer was a snr ranking one. I was taken to his "office" - he never asked me to sign anything - he made some report but I never got any copy... reason is because the Visa I have is LEGAL... I since have a contact with immigration who checked to see if there is something on the computer system re the "insufficient funds" which there is not...therefore my issue (report) was not filed.

[wouldbefarmer]

I have been driven to my first post on Thai Visa by some of the responses to the comments by Samaaw. I think some of the responses, which seem at first to be well intentioned, do not display what I might call appropriate imagination when reading his posts so I can, to a degree, understand his posts that were not taken well.

An extension of stay is an extension of stay on a visa (in this case education) and when coupled with a re-entry permit is in effect the same as what in many countires is called a visa. I always read that Samaaw originally got a 12 month Ed Visa and then had a further extension of stay for 12 months hence my bemusement at some of the posts. I know that many posts on this sort of subject can be confusing but I did not think his was.

Posts like "visas are never renewed" are unhelpful, can be inflamatory and are playing semantics. Yes, a visa is followed by and extension of stay, in Thailand, which is followed by an extension of stay but when a further re-entry permit is gained with each extension of stay it is in effect what is usually referred to as a visa. The only difference for the punter that I can see is that what they have has a different name but they do the same. Further, it should be born in mind that even different native English speaking countries use different terms for what in effect is a visa (to me). So please people be a little less pedantic.

On the theme of the original post by Nautilus05 I would like to add that different countries have different rules that apply to what one can do on what is commonly called a visa. Some allow you to travel to the country (but not enter), some allow you to travel to and enter for the prupose of .... The thing to bear in mind about these variations is that in the first case the decision to allow you to enter is made by the Immigration Officer on arrival. In the second even though you have permission to enter the Immigration Officer at point of arrival can refuse you entry, cancel your visa and put you on an airplane back to your last departure point. So whilst there might be different nuances involved they are in effect the same.

On another note and this is only a guess - after 29 years of Thai experiences. The experience of Samaaw with the "insufficent funds" and being put on a plane out without a cancellation of his extension of stay or re-entry permit may have been a case someone getting away with what he could in an exercise of power. After all if brought to account the officer could merely say he asked for evidence of funds and no evidence was provided. On a similar note acquantances of mine have had experiences with Thai Immigration Officers that could be easily be considered as similar abuses of power. In the first case when my acquantance was applying for a further extenson of stay on his retirement visa he was told no and that he should leave the country because "Thailand doesn't need all you retired foreigners here." After he recovered himself he spoke to another IO later that day and his extension was granted. And only a few weeks ago a neighbour of mine on his 5th retirement extension of stay was told that he could not get an extension of stay and that he would have to leave the country. He queried this, the supervisor was fetched and came up with the same response. When he asked why he was told he had not had the required 800k in his bank account for 3 months (he thought it was 2 months - never an issue in the last 5 years because he had never previously taken any money out of this account which had held 1,000k+). Can I get a letter form the Embassy to verify my income (1,500k) and add that to the 650k in my bank account. No, you have to leave the country. Can I get an extension of stay as a spouse (he has been married to a Thai for 6+ years). No, you have to leave Thailand. He obtained an Embassy stamped verification of his income and I went with him when he next applied. He came away with his extension of stay. I have personally never had any issues when dealing with Immigration but I have seen what has happened to others.

[Samaaw]

I have been driven to my first post on Thai Visa by some of the responses to the comments by Samaaw. I think some of the responses, which seem at first to be well intentioned, do not display what I might call appropriate imagination when reading his posts so I can, to a degree, understand his posts that were not taken well.

An extension of stay is an extension of stay on a visa (in this case education) and when coupled with a re-entry permit is in effect the same as what in many countires is called a visa. I always read that Samaaw originally got a 12 month Ed Visa and then had a further extension of stay for 12 months hence my bemusement at some of the posts. I know that many posts on this sort of subject can be confusing but I did not think his was.

Posts like "visas are never renewed" are unhelpful, can be inflamatory and are playing semantics. Yes, a visa is followed by and extension of stay, in Thailand, which is followed by an extension of stay but when a further re-entry permit is gained with each extension of stay it is in effect what is usually referred to as a visa. The only difference for the punter that I can see is that what they have has a different name but they do the same. Further, it should be born in mind that even different native English speaking countries use different terms for what in effect is a visa (to me). So please people be a little less pedantic.

On the theme of the original post by Nautilus05 I would like to add that different countries have different rules that apply to what one can do on what is commonly called a visa. Some allow you to travel to the country (but not enter), some allow you to travel to and enter for the prupose of .... The thing to bear in mind about these variations is that in the first case the decision to allow you to enter is made by the Immigration Officer on arrival. In the second even though you have permission to enter the Immigration Officer at point of arrival can refuse you entry, cancel your visa and put you on an airplane back to your last departure point. So whilst there might be different nuances involved they are in effect the same.

On another note and this is only a guess - after 29 years of Thai experiences. The experience of Samaaw with the "insufficent funds" and being put on a plane out without a cancellation of his extension of stay or re-entry permit may have been a case someone getting away with what he could in an exercise of power. After all if brought to account the officer could merely say he asked for evidence of funds and no evidence was provided. On a similar note acquantances of mine have had experiences with Thai Immigration Officers that could be easily be considered as similar abuses of power. In the first case when my acquantance was applying for a further extenson of stay on his retirement visa he was told no and that he should leave the country because "Thailand doesn't need all you retired foreigners here." After he recovered himself he spoke to another IO later that day and his extension was granted. And only a few weeks ago a neighbour of mine on his 5th retirement extension of stay was told that he could not get an extension of stay and that he would have to leave the country. He queried this, the supervisor was fetched and came up with the same response. When he asked why he was told he had not had the required 800k in his bank account for 3 months (he thought it was 2 months - never an issue in the last 5 years because he had never previously taken any money out of this account which had held 1,000k+). Can I get a letter form the Embassy to verify my income (1,500k) and add that to the 650k in my bank account. No, you have to leave the country. Can I get an extension of stay as a spouse (he has been married to a Thai for 6+ years). No, you have to leave Thailand. He obtained an Embassy stamped verification of his income and I went with him when he next applied. He came away with his extension of stay. I have personally never had any issues when dealing with Immigration but I have seen what has happened to others.

Thanks for the interesting post... it just goes to show immigration officials seem to have "individual" authority - and any past record of how long one has stayed here - legally - even married to a Thai as in the case of your friend... it does not matter at all to immigration.

Anyway my visa expires early next month - I will be leaving - will return on a "normal" 30 day stamp.

[Soutpeel]

I am a white South African of German parents.

and that could be the problem, at lot Thai's dont believe there are white African's

therefore thinking your on a dodgy PP, refused then realised he had c*kced up..

Lekker dag boet

[Soutpeel]

To be denied entry is not up to the officer that checks your passport. It would probably require an officer of a certain rank to do it. It certainly would not be non com officer. I am also certain there would be a significant amount of paperwork needed. With a copy given to the person being denied entry with a thorough explanation given as to why it was done.

I disagree and not just in the Thai context, your visa is the ticket to get in the door, its the individual immigration officer who decides whether to let you in the door, there isnt significant amounts of paper work needed and wouldnt need someone of "significant" rank, just the immigration officer, but of course as we know with bureaucratic agencys, matters like these will get passed by the pion to a higher level, but one suspects this is not "legally" needed.

[jrtmedic]

Immigration Officers do,in fact, have considerable power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_officer#United_Kingdom

Whilst the link only deals with UK immigration officials I presume that all countries have very similar arrangements.

[ubonjoe]

To be denied entry is not up to the officer that checks your passport. It would probably require an officer of a certain rank to do it. It certainly would not be non com officer. I am also certain there would be a significant amount of paperwork needed. With a copy given to the person being denied entry with a thorough explanation given as to why it was done.

I disagree and not just in the Thai context, your visa is the ticket to get in the door, its the individual immigration officer who decides whether to let you in the door, there isnt significant amounts of paper work needed and wouldnt need someone of "significant" rank, just the immigration officer,  but of course as we know with bureaucratic agencys, matters like these will get passed by the pion to a higher level, but one suspects this is not "legally" needed.

I just have one comment. When you go to immigration for an extension of stay does the officer at the desk approve it and sign the stamp. Turning you around and sending you back to where you came from is certainly the same. Immigration has rules, procedures and regulations for every thing they do.

[Soutpeel]

To be denied entry is not up to the officer that checks your passport. It would probably require an officer of a certain rank to do it. It certainly would not be non com officer. I am also certain there would be a significant amount of paperwork needed. With a copy given to the person being denied entry with a thorough explanation given as to why it was done.

I disagree and not just in the Thai context, your visa is the ticket to get in the door, its the individual immigration officer who decides whether to let you in the door, there isnt significant amounts of paper work needed and wouldnt need someone of "significant" rank, just the immigration officer, but of course as we know with bureaucratic agencys, matters like these will get passed by the pion to a higher level, but one suspects this is not "legally" needed.

I just have one comment. When you go to immigration for an extension of stay does the officer at the desk approve it and sign the stamp. Turning you around and sending you back to where you came from is certainly the same. Immigration has rules, procedures and regulations for every thing they do.

I understand what your saying, but would answer your comment by saying, an extension of stay is actually not visa issue, yes its handled by immigration, but not a desicion to let you into the country but a to let you remain in Thailand and forgoing the "visa requirements"..ie leaving every 90 days to get a new visa.

[Samaaw]

I am a white South African of German parents.

and that could be the problem, at lot Thai's dont believe there are white African's

therefore thinking your on a dodgy PP, refused then realised he had c*kced up..

Lekker dag boet

Thanks - Yes I have noticed many seem totally uneducated to world geography (many farangs are also) - but surely there are many South African Whites in Thailand...

Vas Byt !

[Estrada]

I have loved here 20 years, however I was working in Libya on a 10 weeks on 3 weeks off rotation so I just entered on a tourist permit to stay. On one occasion the immigration officer decided that I had too many trips to Thailand and wanted to refuse entry. The reason was the number of days between visits and the number of visits. They actually had counted the days wrong but that was not going to deter them from refusing entry. I asked to see the Senior Officer and she also wanted to refuse entry even though I have wife and children here. She was just about to stamp me out when I mentioned that I had a meeting with my friend who happened to be the long time previous head of immigration and close friend of the Queen. All of a sudden she apologised and she let me in through the V.I.P. entry point. As you can see Thai immigration do have the power to refuse entry even of they are wrong to do so.

[Mario2008]

The grounds for refusing entry are given in the Immigration act. The immigration act also gives an appeal against a decision to deny entry. That final decision is made at a very high level.

Immigration has the right to refuse someone, but must need good grounds to do so.

[7by7]

^^^^^^

Same as every other country in the world.

[JLCrab]

The grounds for refusing entry are given in the Immigration act. The immigration act also gives an appeal against a decision to deny entry. That final decision is made at a very high level.

Immigration has the right to refuse someone, but must need good grounds to do so.

Section 37 of the Immigration Act states:

An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the

following :

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the

Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General .

So an Immigration Officer has the grounds to deny entry if he/she suspects that you are working illegally and you can of course appeal but that appeal can only go so far if you are in fact working illegally.