The Chinese......Another View.

[Cambodger]

Fair points Lawrence. You have the benefit of a western education and a life experience outside of the confines of mainland China.

Many mainland Chinese people don't.

My experience of work and life in Beijing left me with a feeling of reluctance on their part to embrace western thinking and methods. To put it simply and without wishing to be prejudicial, an obstinacy to embrace different thinking.

I am unsure why there are times when the west think its important to think western

I am unconvinced it benefits the general public with little interaction with foreigners.

What's western thinking really ? liberal and civil rights, free press and an ability to vote and eating sausages, beans and cornflakes ? :-)

The Chinese who are well connected to the net knows that liberal rights seems important and yet the protests does not lead to better standards of living,

Free in Australia where one owners owns all the papers and openly supported the opposition and directed the press ? They chuckle at it and compare it to theirs and are no different

As for the ability to vote like the west, they see Iraq and Afghanistan which were "liberated" by the west yet remains unsafe for woman to shop at markets or play on streets and they think maybe the CCP is no that bad. Anyhow I cannot see the logistics of having 1.3 billion people voting without the west claiming there are spoiled votes, invalid ballot stuffing or the likes. I believe they just decide its not the way things will work for them

Chinese is an ancient language that is pathetically out of date, as is the Thai language and other languages of this region, but not only in this region of the world.

One can say many things about the Chinese language, to include that it has only one tense - the present - and remains based on pictures rather than words, which are symbols. This affects how people think. Does one think in pictures or does one process symbols, i.e. words? Does one make distinctions of the past, present, future, or is there only one dimension to life and to thought itself?

The Chinese form of government always has been dictatorship. Dictatorship was the common form of government before the European Enlightenment. The European Enlightenment led to the resurrection and extension of ancient Greek democracy which continues to the present and will extend beyond the present indefinitely into the future.

China however continues to worship dictatorship and its ancient attitudes and elitist beliefs. Dictatorship however is a dead end in the modern world, a reactionary form of government. The Chinese call themselves the middle country or place of the world, which implies that the rest of us are subordinate, or peripheral, to the Chinese. Why do the Chinese consider themselves as the central people of the world, the central place? What accounts for this trait, which can only be characterized as a clear sense of superiority, supremacy? Well, it's not because of any Enlightenment, which the Chinese haven't ever had. Their claim is based only on the fact they are THE CHINESE. This however is no basis of any such claim. It is a claim to world centrality based exclusively on ethnocentrism, perhaps even racism, each of which is an invalid claim.

China today continues to stand firm for hierarchy, dictatorship, censorship, elitism, inequality, a one party state and one dimensional thinking, absolute rule, no rule of law, punishment of protest or dissent, having only the subordinate-superordinate relationship, quashing free thinking or innovative approaches, and so much else along this line.

China offers nothing new, better or qualitatively different from the modern world and the ways in which the modern world separates us from the deep dark human past.

The world remains a crude enough place as it is. The Chinese would take us back in time rather than recognize the present state of human development. The Chinese offer humanity no prospect of any future, only more of the deep, dark, distant past.

What makes you say the language is out of date? Mind you chinese isn't the only language that has over 5000 years of history what about non tonal languages say tamil? What is your opinion?

Have you heard of a country or a place called taiwan? Also hong kong is majority chinese too.

Chinese are called racist because they named their country the middle kingdom? Well check the map and you can see that china is right in the middle so they are correct. Also i wonder what do you think of enslaving others and seperating them and creating hierachy based system just purely on race in places like south africa is that racist?

Look at you commenting on Chinese offering humanity no prospect of the future? So pray tell who does? The finnish? germans? british? americans? norwegians? Thai? Japanese? It would be a great big joke if someone wrote such a sentence in this manner. The Thai offer humanity no prospect of any future, only more of the deep, dark, distant past. How is that fiat currency and banking system from the west coming along for you? Oh yes that really offers humanity a prospect of a future indeed. How was the promotion of this guy dying on a cross been doing? Really helped the world eh?

" Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Mark Twain

[harrry]

China. Another view.

From an educated, intelligent and knowledgable person who may or may not make harrry's dinner party.

Covers most of the things discussed in this thread apart from the desirability of Chinese women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23509233

..and snake bites.

Interesting post. By the way a friend of mine got bitten by a snake and he say he had a real problem with the nurses, I think they had the problem with him.

[SinglePot]

China. Another view.

From an educated, intelligent and knowledgable person who may or may not make harrry's dinner party.

Covers most of the things discussed in this thread apart from the desirability of Chinese women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23509233

..and snake bites.

Interesting post. By the way a friend of mine got bitten by a snake and he say he had a real problem with the nurses, I think they had the problem with him.

Alpha bungarotoxin harrry.

Difficult stuff to deal with.

[Rimmer]

One post in bad taste removed

[SinglePot]

Is China the West's friend or enemy?

By John Simpson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23448722

The video interview with Hong Lei, deputy director-general in the foreign ministry is worth a look (although he's not exactly a high ranking official.)

Interview granted despite China getting very up tight about Cameron's meeting with the Dalai Lama in 2012.

Etc.

PR or genuine PRC?

up to you.

[SinglePot]

The possibility exists that Mr Simpson, with the greatest respect, is somewhat benign and gullible.

[StreetCowboy]

Fair points Lawrence. You have the benefit of a western education and a life experience outside of the confines of mainland China.

Many mainland Chinese people don't.

My experience of work and life in Beijing left me with a feeling of reluctance on their part to embrace western thinking and methods. To put it simply and without wishing to be prejudicial, an obstinacy to embrace different thinking.

I am unsure why there are times when the west think its important to think western

I am unconvinced it benefits the general public with little interaction with foreigners.

What's western thinking really ? liberal and civil rights, free press and an ability to vote and eating sausages, beans and cornflakes ? :-)

The Chinese who are well connected to the net knows that liberal rights seems important and yet the protests does not lead to better standards of living,

Free in Australia where one owners owns all the papers and openly supported the opposition and directed the press ? They chuckle at it and compare it to theirs and are no different

As for the ability to vote like the west, they see Iraq and Afghanistan which were "liberated" by the west yet remains unsafe for woman to shop at markets or play on streets and they think maybe the CCP is no that bad. Anyhow I cannot see the logistics of having 1.3 billion people voting without the west claiming there are spoiled votes, invalid ballot stuffing or the likes. I believe they just decide its not the way things will work for them

Chinese is an ancient language that is pathetically out of date, as is the Thai language and other languages of this region, but not only in this region of the world.

One can say many things about the Chinese language, to include that it has only one tense - the present - and remains based on pictures rather than words, which are symbols. This affects how people think. Does one think in pictures or does one process symbols, i.e. words? Does one make distinctions of the past, present, future, or is there only one dimension to life and to thought itself?

The Chinese form of government always has been dictatorship. Dictatorship was the common form of government before the European Enlightenment. The European Enlightenment led to the resurrection and extension of ancient Greek democracy which continues to the present and will extend beyond the present indefinitely into the future.

China however continues to worship dictatorship and its ancient attitudes and elitist beliefs. Dictatorship however is a dead end in the modern world, a reactionary form of government. The Chinese call themselves the middle country or place of the world, which implies that the rest of us are subordinate, or peripheral, to the Chinese. Why do the Chinese consider themselves as the central people of the world, the central place? What accounts for this trait, which can only be characterized as a clear sense of superiority, supremacy? Well, it's not because of any Enlightenment, which the Chinese haven't ever had. Their claim is based only on the fact they are THE CHINESE. This however is no basis of any such claim. It is a claim to world centrality based exclusively on ethnocentrism, perhaps even racism, each of which is an invalid claim.

China today continues to stand firm for hierarchy, dictatorship, censorship, elitism, inequality, a one party state and one dimensional thinking, absolute rule, no rule of law, punishment of protest or dissent, having only the subordinate-superordinate relationship, quashing free thinking or innovative approaches, and so much else along this line.

China offers nothing new, better or qualitatively different from the modern world and the ways in which the modern world separates us from the deep dark human past.

The world remains a crude enough place as it is. The Chinese would take us back in time rather than recognize the present state of human development. The Chinese offer humanity no prospect of any future, only more of the deep, dark, distant past.

What makes you say the language is out of date? Mind you chinese isn't the only language that has over 5000 years of history what about non tonal languages say tamil? What is your opinion?

Have you heard of a country or a place called taiwan? Also hong kong is majority chinese too.

Chinese are called racist because they named their country the middle kingdom? Well check the map and you can see that china is right in the middle so they are correct. Also i wonder what do you think of enslaving others and seperating them and creating hierachy based system just purely on race in places like south africa is that racist?

Look at you commenting on Chinese offering humanity no prospect of the future? So pray tell who does? The finnish? germans? british? americans? norwegians? Thai? Japanese? It would be a great big joke if someone wrote such a sentence in this manner. The Thai offer humanity no prospect of any future, only more of the deep, dark, distant past. How is that fiat currency and banking system from the west coming along for you? Oh yes that really offers humanity a prospect of a future indeed. How was the promotion of this guy dying on a cross been doing? Really helped the world eh?

Why do you keep digressing onto Western nations? This thread is about how great China is.

There's plenty of threads elsewhere about how miserable the West is, and how we all curse the nations that gave us our education and wealth.

SC

[StreetCowboy]

Is China the West's friend or enemy?

By John Simpson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23448722

The video interview with Hong Lei, deputy director-general in the foreign ministry is worth a look (although he's not exactly a high ranking official.)

Interview granted despite China getting very up tight about Cameron's meeting with the Dalai Lama in 2012.

Etc.

PR or genuine PRC?

up to you.

The Chinese will not say something because it is true. They may say something despite it being true. The PRC government particularly so.

SC

[harrry]

Is China the West's friend or enemy?

By John Simpson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23448722

The video interview with Hong Lei, deputy director-general in the foreign ministry is worth a look (although he's not exactly a high ranking official.)

Interview granted despite China getting very up tight about Cameron's meeting with the Dalai Lama in 2012.

Etc.

PR or genuine PRC?

up to you.

The Chinese will not say something because it is true. They may say something despite it being true. The PRC government particularly so.

SC

Not the only nation to do so.

[SinglePot]

Which leaves us with the old conundrum of who is most adept at smiling to your face whilst stabbing you in the back.

White man speak with forked tongue ( no disrespect Mr Obama).

The Chinese Year of the Snake.

[SinglePot]

Combining my hard nosed experience of China with my natural instinctive feel....

think I'll go with the President and Mrs Obama.

[Publicus]

Good that you recognize that there are divisive views in China...not every one likes the government irrespective of the propaganda

again no different from an irate citizen in the midwest or anywhere else in the world venting their frustrations about an inept government

Again ...no different from the west ? Aussies go to the polls today not knowing if the next Abbot is a better pm than Rudd

But the good people of Australia get to choose. It's called Democracy.

Sorry. Good Evening.

They don't have coups in Australia?

Many consider the sacking of Whittlam..and especially the installation of the opposition leader Fraser as Prime Minister was in fact a coup however neither side wanted the country destroyedd by itself so did not act as they could have,

The Whittlam government failed more than once to produce a budget. Westminster parliamentary governments fall when they can't produce a budget. The governor general of Australia, the Queen's direct agent in HRM's Commonwealth of Australia, did his duty to dismiss the government, appointed an interim caretaker government and called an election.

The election was held and the opposition racked up a decisive one-sided win.

There was no coup in Australia, never has been one, never will be one. So it's correct to say Australia doesn't have coups.

[Publicus]

...

...

Chinese is an ancient language that is pathetically out of date, as is the Thai language and other languages of this region, but not only in this region of the world.

One can say many things about the Chinese language, to include that it has only one tense - the present - and remains based on pictures rather than words, which are symbols. This affects how people think. Does one think in pictures or does one process symbols, i.e. words? Does one make distinctions of the past, present, future, or is there only one dimension to life and to thought itself?

The Chinese form of government always has been dictatorship. Dictatorship was the common form of government before the European Enlightenment. The European Enlightenment led to the resurrection and extension of ancient Greek democracy which continues to the present and will extend beyond the present indefinitely into the future.

China however continues to worship dictatorship and its ancient attitudes and elitist beliefs. Dictatorship however is a dead end in the modern world, a reactionary form of government. The Chinese call themselves the middle country or place of the world, which implies that the rest of us are subordinate, or peripheral, to the Chinese. Why do the Chinese consider themselves as the central people of the world, the central place? What accounts for this trait, which can only be characterized as a clear sense of superiority, supremacy? Well, it's not because of any Enlightenment, which the Chinese haven't ever had. Their claim is based only on the fact they are THE CHINESE. This however is no basis of any such claim. It is a claim to world centrality based exclusively on ethnocentrism, perhaps even racism, each of which is an invalid claim.

China today continues to stand firm for hierarchy, dictatorship, censorship, elitism, inequality, a one party state and one dimensional thinking, absolute rule, no rule of law, punishment of protest or dissent, having only the subordinate-superordinate relationship, quashing free thinking or innovative approaches, and so much else along this line.

China offers nothing new, better or qualitatively different from the modern world and the ways in which the modern world separates us from the deep dark human past.

The world remains a crude enough place as it is. The Chinese would take us back in time rather than recognize the present state of human development. The Chinese offer humanity no prospect of any future, only more of the deep, dark, distant past.

You're just trying to work Snake24 into an apoplectic fit, aren't you?

Ignorant prejudice rarely looks good, no matter how articulately presented.

SC

I know my experience with the PRChinese.

Sometimes a bit of understanding helps us through difficult and frustrating experiences

In which case I'd ask how you deal in understanding ways with the fenqing?

The fenqing are simply the most extreme and the absolute worst of the propagandized and indoctrinated racist ethnocentrics that populate the Middle Kingdom.

How does one discuss or understand another who will only shout in your face "<deleted>*k you!" and do it repeatedly.

The fenqing told me the United States has "upset the world," which means the 5000 year old world of the deluded Middle Kingdom Chinese, so therefore the United States must be destroyed by war, and shall be destroyed by war, as soon as the CCP-PRC is ready.

Do you understand?

[Publicus]

The thread has been very interesting to read, and many of the contributions have been insightful and revealing. Unfortunately a couple of members have posted in regards to racism and to be brutal about it, they have humiliated themselves.

The entire cause of the downfall of China from it's preeminent and dominant World position was Nationalism and Racism.

King George III sent an emissary to the Imperial Court to request that China consider trading with the West. What happened next is one of the most appalling misjudgments in human history.

The Emissary requested an audience. For two whole years negotiations took place as to the court protocol. It began with a demand that the Emissary should prostrate himself in front of the Emperor and crawl towards him. There was no way a Royal Emissary of the British Court was going to do that.

Arguments went back and forth as the Chinese were intent on ramming their superiority down the throats of any visiting diplomats. They regarded these individuals with contempt, convinced that the Middle Kingdom was the centre of Planet Earth and that every other country in the World should bow obediently to their gracious power.

They enforced this policy throughout Asia, Japan, Korea and other nations would bow to the Chinese Emperor, and be regarded as inferior childling nations by the Chinese. Another example of Institutionalized Nationalist Racism.

Anyway, the issue was trade, vast quantities of Chinese goods were flowing to the West, the simple question was, how about buying some stuff from us?

After two years an agreement was reached, a painting of King George III was placed behind the Emperor, hidden behind a silk screen. The Emissary approached and bowed deeply. Those watching ( that didn't know about the painting ) were of the opinion that the King of Britain was kowtowing to the Emperor, as an Emissary represents the Regent. This farce suited the Face issue that the Chinese Emperor was trying to present. It was essential for him to portray himself as the leader of men, the Most Powerful, Most Blessed Regent in the World.

The Emissary wasn't bowing deeply to the Emperor at all, he was bowing deeply to the hidden portrait. After listening to the request made on friendly terms for China to consider trading with the West, and the UK in particular, the Emperor dismissed the Emissary with a contemptuous " We are the Middle Kingdom, you have nothing that we want or need ".

Yup, that's what he said to the UK Emissary right on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution. When word got back to the British Royal Court they were enraged. Instead of a situation where silk, tea and porcelain would cross the oceans one way, while wool and industrial technology would flow the other between friendly trading nations. Chinese Nationalism and Racism caused a split.

It was essential that the West force open trade with China, China was sucking in all of the capital in the form of silver. It was effectively bleeding the West dry.

You can date the downfall of China from the moment that Emperor opened his mouth. He sealed the fate of his nation that day. If China had traded, they would have built themselves up to being the preeminent manufacturing power in the World in the early 1800's. Could you picture the Chinese getting their hands on rail and steam technology back in the day? No one would have come close to overcoming their trading power.

What really happened was that the Brits rolled out their arms manufacturing, steam ships, incredible naval resources et al. They forced open the market and the rest of the Western countries rejoiced. I'm delighted to say it was two Scotsmen, Jardine and Mathieson who were at the forefront of this trading conquest.

Yes they rammed Opium down the throats of the Chinese, however people choose to ignore the fact that it was willing throats. They wanted it. The Emperors of the day were enraged when they realized that they had fallen off their lofty perch. Little Britain could roll in at any time it wanted and boot them all over the place. The Chinese went from Omnipotent to Impotent in one wayward sentence from the Imperial Mouth.

This is the true nature of the Rage In China. They were humiliated, but to make it even worse, it was a self inflicted wound, caused by their Racist Nationalist agenda.

After the Americans sailed into Isolationist Japan and shelled them, bullied them, into submission, the Japanese grabbed hold of the technological expertise provided partly by the US and exploded into being a militarized and industrial force. It was the ultimate humiliation for China when Japan, who they regarded as being inferior monkeys, came a calling. What you saw at Nanking, disgusting as it was, was pay back for centuries of Imperial domination by China.

Payback is a bitch huh?

The Chinese and Chinese apologists date all the faults and humiliations from the first Opium War. The Chinese Communist government cannot tell the truth, and the truth is that it was China's own fault that they didn't grasp the hand of friendship when offered. They can't tell the truth that all the humiliations came as a result of their superiority complex, their nationalist, racist agenda.

They still stoke the Nationalist, Racist fire. Members here have stated that they have seen the degree of vilification directed towards the Japanese. I stand by my additional contention that there is institutional hatred of the West in the system too.

My OP addressed the issue of racism in China right away. I explained that was behind a lot of the dynamic that you see with the Chinese here in Thailand. They are disdainful of the Thais, they don't hate them, they just regard them as inferior.

Talk of White Supremacy is dribbling garbage. It's intellectually vacuous to argue that point. The real danger is the return of a centuries old Racial Supremacy mindset in China. The Chinese Communist party has been fertilizing that crop for decades, you better hope that we don't one day reap what they have sowed.

Absolute garbage and what makes you think china would have benefitted if they had agreed to trade? Since when did the west especially in those times ever agree to fair terms? No if china had agreed to trade they would be at the losing end. I was correct that when it comes to talks on china discussions there will be racist comments made about chinese and how inferior china or the chinese are. Why even concern yourselves with how chinese view the thais when almost everyone else does the same with regards to other races/nationalities? There is nothing wrong talking about white supermacy. Now imagine if there was a chinese forum called say chinafront in which you had to be a chinese to even post in there and all day long they were boasting on how superior they were you would have called that the dumbest forum in the world and how deluded those dumb chinese are but there isn't such a forum but there is a white supremacist forum that promotes that thought and you are totally cool with it. Mind explaining this to me?

Anyway it's all good now cos we have all sorts of ppl in the third world living in western and european countries now. The colonies that the west made out of these countries are suffering retribution now. It's good that we get to see mosques and temples etc being built over there. Yes these ppl deserve a better life. Would you agree with my point here?

It's called free speech in the marketplace of ideas.

so it's perfectly fine to have an east asian supremacist forum right?

If one accepts or advocates absolute freedom of speech, yes.

[LawrenceChee]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

[Publicus]

I know my experience with westerners.

Makes racist remarks and thinks they are ok, has supremacist ideas and thinks it's ok but in the same vein calls others racist and racial supremacists and chides them and flames and condemns for it but thinks it's fine if he has the same exact mindset.

Advocating democracy is racism?

Commending the European Enlightenment is racism?

Condemning dictatorship and censorship is racism?

Etc?

[StreetCowboy]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

They were probably saying FQ.

[OldChinaHam]

I just wanted to mention here that I still regard myself as a member of the human race.

And, the human race is like a tree.

With branches and upper and lower limbs,

And crotches!

And, if you study searching and sorting technology for computers, then you know how important the tree can be.

So, if we think of ourselves as a tree, and one giant family of humans and members of this same human race,

Then the Chinese wrote a book very long ago before I was born,

Which deals with the complexity of existing in a big family and still being able to enjoy family life, when you have superiors and inferiors, and all sorts of family members.

Here is the book.

I have just posted an image for you instead of the title because this book has many titles, as was mentioned in the Bible, that it shall be known and called by many names:

The nice thing about this, is that you can

Find this book in the Public Commons,

Which means you do not need to pay to read it,

You only need a brain, which everyone here has to an overly large size sometimes it seems.

Also, this book will help some of you better understand the culture of China, and learn to love it as do I.

So this is my great gift to you this evening.

But you do not need to thank me, my children,

As SreetCowboy has already stated, I do this for you out of the kindness of my heart, and it does provide me too with much pleasure.

So learn about relationships in our family by reading this book,

And stop your carping as SC has also told us to do.

Thank you.

Peace.

[OldChinaHam]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

They were probably saying FQ.

I hate to correct anyone here,

But it sticks in my craw if I do not,

That it is pretty obvious that someone meant FENGJING, not FENQING.

Or, maybe I did not catch the gist of this thread and someone did mean fenqing?

QiFen, I do know, and some are spoiling it as you say

Edited September 8, 2013 by OldChinaHam

[Publicus]

The thread has been very interesting to read, and many of the contributions have been insightful and revealing. Unfortunately a couple of members have posted in regards to racism and to be brutal about it, they have humiliated themselves.

The entire cause of the downfall of China from it's preeminent and dominant World position was Nationalism and Racism.

King George III sent an emissary to the Imperial Court to request that China consider trading with the West. What happened next is one of the most appalling misjudgments in human history.

The Emissary requested an audience. For two whole years negotiations took place as to the court protocol. It began with a demand that the Emissary should prostrate himself in front of the Emperor and crawl towards him. There was no way a Royal Emissary of the British Court was going to do that.

Arguments went back and forth as the Chinese were intent on ramming their superiority down the throats of any visiting diplomats. They regarded these individuals with contempt, convinced that the Middle Kingdom was the centre of Planet Earth and that every other country in the World should bow obediently to their gracious power.

They enforced this policy throughout Asia, Japan, Korea and other nations would bow to the Chinese Emperor, and be regarded as inferior childling nations by the Chinese. Another example of Institutionalized Nationalist Racism.

Anyway, the issue was trade, vast quantities of Chinese goods were flowing to the West, the simple question was, how about buying some stuff from us?

After two years an agreement was reached, a painting of King George III was placed behind the Emperor, hidden behind a silk screen. The Emissary approached and bowed deeply. Those watching ( that didn't know about the painting ) were of the opinion that the King of Britain was kowtowing to the Emperor, as an Emissary represents the Regent. This farce suited the Face issue that the Chinese Emperor was trying to present. It was essential for him to portray himself as the leader of men, the Most Powerful, Most Blessed Regent in the World.

The Emissary wasn't bowing deeply to the Emperor at all, he was bowing deeply to the hidden portrait. After listening to the request made on friendly terms for China to consider trading with the West, and the UK in particular, the Emperor dismissed the Emissary with a contemptuous " We are the Middle Kingdom, you have nothing that we want or need ".

Yup, that's what he said to the UK Emissary right on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution. When word got back to the British Royal Court they were enraged. Instead of a situation where silk, tea and porcelain would cross the oceans one way, while wool and industrial technology would flow the other between friendly trading nations. Chinese Nationalism and Racism caused a split.

It was essential that the West force open trade with China, China was sucking in all of the capital in the form of silver. It was effectively bleeding the West dry.

You can date the downfall of China from the moment that Emperor opened his mouth. He sealed the fate of his nation that day. If China had traded, they would have built themselves up to being the preeminent manufacturing power in the World in the early 1800's. Could you picture the Chinese getting their hands on rail and steam technology back in the day? No one would have come close to overcoming their trading power.

What really happened was that the Brits rolled out their arms manufacturing, steam ships, incredible naval resources et al. They forced open the market and the rest of the Western countries rejoiced. I'm delighted to say it was two Scotsmen, Jardine and Mathieson who were at the forefront of this trading conquest.

Yes they rammed Opium down the throats of the Chinese, however people choose to ignore the fact that it was willing throats. They wanted it. The Emperors of the day were enraged when they realized that they had fallen off their lofty perch. Little Britain could roll in at any time it wanted and boot them all over the place. The Chinese went from Omnipotent to Impotent in one wayward sentence from the Imperial Mouth.

This is the true nature of the Rage In China. They were humiliated, but to make it even worse, it was a self inflicted wound, caused by their Racist Nationalist agenda.

After the Americans sailed into Isolationist Japan and shelled them, bullied them, into submission, the Japanese grabbed hold of the technological expertise provided partly by the US and exploded into being a militarized and industrial force. It was the ultimate humiliation for China when Japan, who they regarded as being inferior monkeys, came a calling. What you saw at Nanking, disgusting as it was, was pay back for centuries of Imperial domination by China.

Payback is a bitch huh?

The Chinese and Chinese apologists date all the faults and humiliations from the first Opium War. The Chinese Communist government cannot tell the truth, and the truth is that it was China's own fault that they didn't grasp the hand of friendship when offered. They can't tell the truth that all the humiliations came as a result of their superiority complex, their nationalist, racist agenda.

They still stoke the Nationalist, Racist fire. Members here have stated that they have seen the degree of vilification directed towards the Japanese. I stand by my additional contention that there is institutional hatred of the West in the system too.

My OP addressed the issue of racism in China right away. I explained that was behind a lot of the dynamic that you see with the Chinese here in Thailand. They are disdainful of the Thais, they don't hate them, they just regard them as inferior.

Talk of White Supremacy is dribbling garbage. It's intellectually vacuous to argue that point. The real danger is the return of a centuries old Racial Supremacy mindset in China. The Chinese Communist party has been fertilizing that crop for decades, you better hope that we don't one day reap what they have sowed.

Here's the full text of the letter Chinese Emperor Long sent to George III of Great Britain in response to the king's offer of trade relations with China.

The letter is replete with references to the superiority and supremacy of the Chines in all of the world and in the affairs of all the world.

It represents the 5000 year history of Chinese racism that the world is facing in the present.

In accordance with the "fair use" rule of TVF, I present three choice lines from the smugly and self-satisfied supremacist letter that makes clear the historical Chinese state of mind that they are the undoubted and unquestioned supreme overlords of the world.

Emperor Qian Long: Letter to George III, 1793

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/qianlong.html

Swaying the wide world, I have but one aim in view, namely, to maintain a perfect governance and to fulfil the duties of the State: strange and costly objects do not interest me.

As your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures.

It behoves you, O King, to respect my sentiments and to display even greater devotion and loyalty in future, so that, by perpetual submission to our Throne, you may secure peace and prosperity for your country hereafter.

[onionluke]

"The Chinese" I have met over the last wee while include , migrant labour building a 42 story high rise by hand , pissed off tourists needing a bit of fresh air to sweeten up their bus tour , expensively dressed tourists aware they are being judged ,fake monks asking alms , pimping gangsters taking women to Macau via BK to dodge the length of stay rules , construction labour skilled and unskilled who put a day in that beggars belief, blind banjo playing buskers , Beautifully gifted beautiful uruh players , small hold peasants , trawling fisher folk waiting out the monitorium .Illegal immigrants /tourists selling their bodies, and all sorts in this day of opportunity . I just avoid the fortune tellers .

Gung hei Fat Choi

[StreetCowboy]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

They were probably saying FQ.

I hate to correct anyone here,

But it sticks in my craw if I do not,

That it is pretty obvious that someone meant FENGJING, not FENQING.

Or, maybe I did not catch the gist of this thread and someone did mean fenqing?

QiFen, I do know, and some are spoiling it as you say

I'm not au fait with Chinese radical politics, but wikipedia tells me that fenqing is an abbreviation for fenqingnian, which apparently translates as "angry youth". They sound like a more conformist equivalent of our National Front.

I generally find swearing in a foreign language to be an embarrassing and humiliating experience, as it merely highlights my ignorance and limited vocabulary. Generally, I also find swearing in English has the same effect.

SC

[SinglePot]

Not quite sure of the relevance of a classic novel about 18th century Chinese aristocratic families to the current thread.

Will it help me understand the culture of China and modern day Beijing?

Where does this masterpiece fit? We've seen Mao Zedong, the cultural revolution ( destruction?) and the enforcement of amputated families since this was written.

[OldChinaHam]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

They were probably saying FQ.

I hate to correct anyone here,

But it sticks in my craw if I do not,

That it is pretty obvious that someone meant FENGJING, not FENQING.

Or, maybe I did not catch the gist of this thread and someone did mean fenqing?

QiFen, I do know, and some are spoiling it as you say

I'm not au fait with Chinese radical politics, but wikipedia tells me that fenqing is an abbreviation for fenqingnian, which apparently translates as "angry youth". They sound like a more conformist equivalent of our National Front.

I generally find swearing in a foreign language to be an embarrassing and humiliating experience, as it merely highlights my ignorance and limited vocabulary. Generally, I also find swearing in English has the same effect.

SC

Thank you for your help with that. I also know you are right on two counts:

1. I recall reading that the term "fenqing" is used as you describe. I think I read it in some economics journal or something dealing with risk in China.

2. I very much agree with your thinking about swearing. IF one is able to write well, then there is no need for it. Still, let us keep in mind that most US Presidents just LOVE to swear, especially Ike Eisenhower, and you recall his campaign button: "I Like Ike!"

3. Vulgarity and swearing has its place though, in the written language, and sometimes it is required to achieve the desired effect.

Sometimes when PinYin is used, it is not always entirely clear what the writer has in mind.

But here, obviously, any Chinese characters will be removed,

No doubt.

(I have tried it.)

Edited September 8, 2013 by OldChinaHam

[Publicus]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

They were probably saying FQ.

I hate to correct anyone here,

But it sticks in my craw if I do not,

That it is pretty obvious that someone meant FENGJING, not FENQING.

Or, maybe I did not catch the gist of this thread and someone did mean fenqing?

QiFen, I do know, and some are spoiling it as you say

The transliteration varies according to the varying pronunciations, as some say jing and some say ching.

Those who emphasize the 'jing' spell it fengjing.

Those who emphasize the 'ching' spell it fenqing.

The latter is by far the more common and regular use I've seen in print.

I've head the varying pronunciations in the CCP-PRC.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Publicus

[OldChinaHam]

Not quite sure of the relevance of a classic novel about 18th century Chinese aristocratic families to the current thread.

Will it help me understand the culture of China and modern day Beijing?

Where does this masterpiece fit? We've seen Mao Zedong, the cultural revolution ( destruction?) and the enforcement of amputated families since this was written.

Yes, it will absolutely help you understand the culture of China and today's Beijing.

It will help also the understanding of politics in the family.

Most consider this novel to be a book read by and for girls.

Someone here on another thread recommended to me reading several important novels in addition to histories for the purpose of understanding Thai culture.

This I will do, because to understand the culture then we must read the literature.

If you wish to understand politics or history, then you must be able to put yourself in the perspective of another viewer, the Chinese who are living in "modern day Beijing".

How are you going to do this if you do not read what they read, eat what they eat, and live under the same conditions they live under?

I could tell you more, I suppose.

Edited September 8, 2013 by OldChinaHam

[OldChinaHam]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

They were probably saying FQ.

I hate to correct anyone here,

But it sticks in my craw if I do not,

That it is pretty obvious that someone meant FENGJING, not FENQING.

Or, maybe I did not catch the gist of this thread and someone did mean fenqing?

QiFen, I do know, and some are spoiling it as you say

The transliteration varies according to the varying pronunciations, as some say jing and some say ching.

Those who emphasize the 'jing' spell it fengjing.

Those who emphasize the 'ching' spell it fenqing.

The latter is by far the more common and regular use I've seen in print.

I assume everyone is speaking Mandarin unless I hear otherwise.

And in Mandarin, FengJing is Fengjing.

[Publicus]

The topic was a good discussion till you joined in...your extreme views and opinions seem to mirror the fenqing except you probably don't eat congee for brekkie and can't speak a word of mandarin.

Again the fenqing group is a small minority and you can find this anywhere in the world including the USA if you go to the right places

Did you repeat you hate china this much to their face while they were using the "f" word ...must have got you a free badaling Great Wall tour....

The fenqing are the extreme and militant representatives of the view of the general population as daily propagandized and indoctrinated by the CCP.

Your soft soaping approach doesn't change the fact.

[harrry]

The thread has been very interesting to read, and many of the contributions have been insightful and revealing. Unfortunately a couple of members have posted in regards to racism and to be brutal about it, they have humiliated themselves.

The entire cause of the downfall of China from it's preeminent and dominant World position was Nationalism and Racism.

King George III sent an emissary to the Imperial Court to request that China consider trading with the West. What happened next is one of the most appalling misjudgments in human history.

The Emissary requested an audience. For two whole years negotiations took place as to the court protocol. It began with a demand that the Emissary should prostrate himself in front of the Emperor and crawl towards him. There was no way a Royal Emissary of the British Court was going to do that.

Arguments went back and forth as the Chinese were intent on ramming their superiority down the throats of any visiting diplomats. They regarded these individuals with contempt, convinced that the Middle Kingdom was the centre of Planet Earth and that every other country in the World should bow obediently to their gracious power.

They enforced this policy throughout Asia, Japan, Korea and other nations would bow to the Chinese Emperor, and be regarded as inferior childling nations by the Chinese. Another example of Institutionalized Nationalist Racism.

Anyway, the issue was trade, vast quantities of Chinese goods were flowing to the West, the simple question was, how about buying some stuff from us?

After two years an agreement was reached, a painting of King George III was placed behind the Emperor, hidden behind a silk screen. The Emissary approached and bowed deeply. Those watching ( that didn't know about the painting ) were of the opinion that the King of Britain was kowtowing to the Emperor, as an Emissary represents the Regent. This farce suited the Face issue that the Chinese Emperor was trying to present. It was essential for him to portray himself as the leader of men, the Most Powerful, Most Blessed Regent in the World.

The Emissary wasn't bowing deeply to the Emperor at all, he was bowing deeply to the hidden portrait. After listening to the request made on friendly terms for China to consider trading with the West, and the UK in particular, the Emperor dismissed the Emissary with a contemptuous " We are the Middle Kingdom, you have nothing that we want or need ".

Yup, that's what he said to the UK Emissary right on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution. When word got back to the British Royal Court they were enraged. Instead of a situation where silk, tea and porcelain would cross the oceans one way, while wool and industrial technology would flow the other between friendly trading nations. Chinese Nationalism and Racism caused a split.

It was essential that the West force open trade with China, China was sucking in all of the capital in the form of silver. It was effectively bleeding the West dry.

You can date the downfall of China from the moment that Emperor opened his mouth. He sealed the fate of his nation that day. If China had traded, they would have built themselves up to being the preeminent manufacturing power in the World in the early 1800's. Could you picture the Chinese getting their hands on rail and steam technology back in the day? No one would have come close to overcoming their trading power.

What really happened was that the Brits rolled out their arms manufacturing, steam ships, incredible naval resources et al. They forced open the market and the rest of the Western countries rejoiced. I'm delighted to say it was two Scotsmen, Jardine and Mathieson who were at the forefront of this trading conquest.

Yes they rammed Opium down the throats of the Chinese, however people choose to ignore the fact that it was willing throats. They wanted it. The Emperors of the day were enraged when they realized that they had fallen off their lofty perch. Little Britain could roll in at any time it wanted and boot them all over the place. The Chinese went from Omnipotent to Impotent in one wayward sentence from the Imperial Mouth.

This is the true nature of the Rage In China. They were humiliated, but to make it even worse, it was a self inflicted wound, caused by their Racist Nationalist agenda.

After the Americans sailed into Isolationist Japan and shelled them, bullied them, into submission, the Japanese grabbed hold of the technological expertise provided partly by the US and exploded into being a militarized and industrial force. It was the ultimate humiliation for China when Japan, who they regarded as being inferior monkeys, came a calling. What you saw at Nanking, disgusting as it was, was pay back for centuries of Imperial domination by China.

Payback is a bitch huh?

The Chinese and Chinese apologists date all the faults and humiliations from the first Opium War. The Chinese Communist government cannot tell the truth, and the truth is that it was China's own fault that they didn't grasp the hand of friendship when offered. They can't tell the truth that all the humiliations came as a result of their superiority complex, their nationalist, racist agenda.

They still stoke the Nationalist, Racist fire. Members here have stated that they have seen the degree of vilification directed towards the Japanese. I stand by my additional contention that there is institutional hatred of the West in the system too.

My OP addressed the issue of racism in China right away. I explained that was behind a lot of the dynamic that you see with the Chinese here in Thailand. They are disdainful of the Thais, they don't hate them, they just regard them as inferior.

Talk of White Supremacy is dribbling garbage. It's intellectually vacuous to argue that point. The real danger is the return of a centuries old Racial Supremacy mindset in China. The Chinese Communist party has been fertilizing that crop for decades, you better hope that we don't one day reap what they have sowed.

Here's the full text of the letter Chinese Emperor Long sent to George III of Great Britain in response to the king's offer of trade relations with China.

The letter is replete with references to the superiority and supremacy of the Chines in all of the world and in the affairs of all the world.

It represents the 5000 year history of Chinese racism that the world is facing in the present.

In accordance with the "fair use" rule of TVF, I present three choice lines from the smugly and self-satisfied supremacist letter that makes clear the historical Chinese state of mind that they are the undoubted and unquestioned supreme overlords of the world.

Emperor Qian Long: Letter to George III, 1793

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/qianlong.html

Swaying the wide world, I have but one aim in view, namely, to maintain a perfect governance and to fulfil the duties of the State: strange and costly objects do not interest me.

As your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures.

It behoves you, O King, to respect my sentiments and to display even greater devotion and loyalty in future, so that, by perpetual submission to our Throne, you may secure peace and prosperity for your country hereafter.

thank you for an interesting link. I see the letter totally diferently to you as in fact a very complete measured and polite response to a King of a foreign country whose letters contained always a list of his majesty and that of his county his subject and his widespread realm.

[theblether]

@Publicus, your post #200, Superb Sir.

Every Chinese apologist should read that and weep