Help! Electric jolt while loading washing machine

[tropo]

Don't worry!!!

It is still 100% safe if your mother-in-law does the laundry.

LOL.... she's in the Philippines. Even if she was here, I wouldn't have her living with us.

[wpcoe]

Just because there's a green (earth/ground) wire headed into that outlet, there's no assurance that the other end of that green wire is properly earthed/grounded. Sorry to be the pessimist, but I've seen the classic "wire-to-the-nail-in-the-wall" at a neighbor's house, and in my own condo the green wire from the water heater is routed to the consumer unit, but attached to a screw holding the CU to the wall.

Once you are convinced there actually is a proper earth connection at the other end, you can (and should) then then confidently proceed with the Shuko-adapter.

And, what the folks are saying about lowering/moving that water connection away from the outlet sure seems like a good idea.

[tropo]

Hey Tropo -

You shouldn't have your supply tap above, or anywhere near your plug socket, or really be using it in a bathroom - you're asking for further trouble. If you cant avoid it's situation - chop the water pipe so it's a lot lower beneath the socket, or just above the floor.

Your machine is made by a European company, which explains the plug, and is probably older than 4 Years, going by the condition of it. Such an amount of rust isn't normal on a newish domestic machine. Most of the heavier domestic machines manufactured here would have a three pin these days.

I would imagine the machine uses a commutator motor - over time, with normal usage, the carbon brushes on such motors fling off a massive amount of very fine dust, which would probably be coating most of the inside of the machine by now - in my experience, such a coating makes it very easy for a leak, or even a normal isolated live connection to lose it's autonomy, and blanket your entire machine - add to that the rust, and there you go. It is prudent with such machines to open them up periodically, and remove the motor and blow it out with high pressure air, aswell as the whole inside of the machine, to remove such build ups.

You should definitely get an adaptor to earth your plug, or change it. I would aswell find an earth point on the body and wire that to the connection block, which is usually located directly under the lid, towards the back of the machine because sometimes on an older, or even a new machine, just earthing the plug isn't enough, and I know the real sparky's on the forum as well as the laws of physics would disagree with me, but it's true. I've had enough belts off, and used / serviced enough machines to know.

If you're not qualified, get someone who is to do it. If you fancy having a go, unplug the machine and open it up - not much to a washer at the end of the day, and very easy to check for leaks.

I would recommend you / someone else clean the inside of the machine and motor thoroughly with compressed air, or a blower / hoover on reverse and wiping it down with a dry cloth. I would recommend you clean it thoroughly every now and then. If you're planning on keeping the machine, I would try to remove as much of the rust as you can and paint over it.

You've been having a leak primarily at the powder drawer - this could be caused by a build up of calcified powder / water in the system. Take the drawer out, and have a look inside its' compartment. Give it a good clean, if it's filled with gunk - or if you're opening the machine, you will see a flexible rubber connector from the back of the drawer to the top of the drum - you can remove it, and give it a good clean out with an old toothbrush and some hot soapy water. Do the same with the filter. You would see a similar rubber connector from the bottom of the drum to the pump which gets rid of the water - easy to check for built up blockage - coins, bra wire, nails, tooothpicks - all sorts of stuff you would never think of, but could compromise the rubber's integrity, or the pumps efficiency and cause leaks. If your pump is blocked and your machine is spinning, the centrifugal force could throw water back up through the drawer.

Usually only one pipe in, and one out, and maybe one more to circulate a jet wash back into the drum. After that, only a door gasket, a ball race / bearing gasket, and usually a gasket between the two halves of the drum. All easy to check, with little more than a visual inspection. You can usually see where the leaks are eminating from by the watermarks.

Many digital machines have a way of accessing a bult in diagnostic program, which could provide you with error codes, and allow you to ascertain if a certain part is malfunctioning. Try googling the model number to check for access method.

Of course, if you can't be arsed with any of the above, get your landlord to replace the machine - but do address the water / plug / earthing issues - even on a new one.

Good luck.

I appreciate your help to fix the machine.... but... I've already been pushing the landlord for a new machine before I learned about this new problem, just on the cosmetic issue that's it's an eyesore.

I really don't want to open it up just in case I cause a problem that he could blame me for. It may seem simple to you, but to a person who has never looked inside a washing machine before, it may be a bit tricky. It's still washing clothes well, unfortunately, because if it wasn't I would have had a replacement machine by now.

I really don't think the machine is older than 4 years - that's why I've been amazed at how quickly it has rusted up. I do clean the soap dispenser and filter now and then.

[tropo]

Just because there's a green (earth/ground) wire headed into that outlet, there's no assurance that the other end of that green wire is properly earthed/grounded. Sorry to be the pessimist, but I've seen the classic "wire-to-the-nail-in-the-wall" at a neighbor's house, and in my own condo the green wire from the water heater is routed to the consumer unit, but attached to a screw holding the CU to the wall.

Once you are convinced there actually is a proper earth connection at the other end, you can (and should) then then confidently proceed with the Shuko-adapter.

And, what the folks are saying about lowering/moving that water connection away from the outlet sure seems like a good idea.

I followed Crossy's suggestion and tested the earth outlet with an old lamp. The earth connection at the outlet is definitely working - I checked other's around the house too - all good.

I have attached the Schuko adapter which I just bought at HomePro (85 baht).

Now, how am I going to find out if my washing machine is earthed without taking a zap? They had a multi-meter at HomePro for 750 baht, but it was quite complicated and seemed too elaborate for my needs and I don't even know if it would be of any use.

[tropo]

NCC1701A gives some good advice. You do need to sort this out, the washer is either not grounded or is faulty, either way its a tradgedy waiting to happen. The fact that your wife is getting shocks also shows that this circuit is not protected by an ELCB, you need to rectify this.

As an aside, "conventional" current flow is from positive to negitive. Electrons however flow from negative to positive.

We do have circuit breakers in the house. They have never tripped.

[tropo]

Having the water supply immediately above the electrical outlet is handy as well.

Also, judging by the rust around the machine it's likely that it's not exactly watertight and/or the water pipe/tap may be prone to leaking. This will add to the potential for disaster.

As everybody has suggested, get the earth sorted out for the house to reduce the odds of not getting fried, not just that particular appliance.

Buy gumboots, wear sunscreen.

Yeah, that was really handy putting the water supply above and so near the electrical outlet. They really thought that one through, didn't they? I wonder who's to blame, the electrician or the plumber?

The tap or connections don't leak. There's not enough water around to explain the rusting unless it comes from within the machine. The room tends to be very dry most of the day apart from shower time and even then it's quite far from the machine. (3m).

[tropo]

I had this from a fridge...it wasn't a full electric shock but a definite presence of a few volts.

I have a meter and could measure a residual several volts (AC) to the floor on the metal fridge parts.

There wasn't much I could do regarding 'earthing' as it only had a 2 pin plug on it!

Strangely enough it was much better if I rotated the plug....ie swapped the live and neutral, but the plug wasn't keyed. (I have 3 pin sockets in the house and an earth circuit).

One option is to run your own earth wire but finding a place to run it to can be a problem.

Beware of those old fashioned electric kettles they have here, very dangerous as you are often grabbing at the plug to disconnect it..... I threw one out after the TGF got a shock and her mother subsequently got zapped by another.

I checked my fridge earlier, and it turns out that someone had connected a 2 point adapter to the 3 point fridge plug. I've just changed that to a 3 point adapter which I bought at HomePro. Interestingly, the fridge as a 3 point British plug. It's a Fischer & Paykel.

[tropo]

I say print all this great information up for the landlord and and have him fix it properly or MOVE.

Don't make his house's deficiencies your tragedy.

He's in England right now, but he'll be hearing about it when he returns. I'm still after a new washing machine.

[tropo]

If you have a voltmeter, measure from the machine to something that you know to be grounded,

Such as a metal pipe or rod in the ground.

If you see anything more than a few volts, you have an electrical leak that is touching the cabinet of the

Machine.

So I need to buy a voltmeter and connect the body of the machine to a ground wire to check for volts? I can use the earth wire in my outlet for this?

[poanoi]

I can lend you a multimeter

[Crossy]

@Tropo, I see from an earlier post you now have a Schuko adaptor and that you've tested the outlet earth with a lamp as I said earlier (the lamp lit)

Excellent. You now have a grounded machine that won't bite.

For your peace of mind only: To be sure it won't bite, you need to find a ground that isn't part of your electrics and measure the AC voltage between the machine and that ground. A big screwdriver in the lawn works well if you can attach a long lead to it, otherwise part of the building steel will do (a balcony rail maybe).

If you don't have a meter, just touch a bare metal part of the machine with the back of your knuckles, you'll soon know if it's OK (using the back of your hand means any reaction will pull you away). To be honest, from what you've said your good lady is now safe.

[dighambara]

IMHO - a few points:

1. Assuming machine was factory wired, then House wiring is defective - obviously no ground (Earth to Brits)..

2. Unplugging the machine is the norm, as most houses in Thailand are improperly wired.

3. Install a ground - drive a 6' copper (or copperclad) stake into the ground near the washer and run a thick copper wire (green sheathing) to the 3rd pin on your plug.

OR You could have a Thai electrician check and rewire as necessary...

[Bkungbank]

Can see the wet bottom of the machine , used brick to to lavitate the machine higher as water and wiring get circute.

Don't not used as rats like to bits wiring inside, hire someone to check before as no breaker very dangerous. INstall a breaker.

[rosst]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

A couple of observations, firstly and formostly it is very dangerous, secondly, the lack of correct grounding is probably what is causing the serious corrosion problem. Both the machine and the house need checking, the house electrician should be able to do an earth leakage test on the machine as well as check the wall socket. This is why I did ALL my household wiring myself, and when they came to install the aircon (Panasonic) the installer said " why do you want three wire?" we only use two? I showed him the documentation that insists on three to both units of the split or no WARRANTY.

[tropo]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

A couple of observations, firstly and formostly it is very dangerous, secondly, the lack of correct grounding is probably what is causing the serious corrosion problem. Both the machine and the house need checking, the house electrician should be able to do an earth leakage test on the machine as well as check the wall socket. This is why I did ALL my household wiring myself, and when they came to install the aircon (Panasonic) the installer said " why do you want three wire?" we only use two? I showed him the documentation that insists on three to both units of the split or no WARRANTY.

I have ground at the outlet as I tested it...and throughout the house as I tested it according to Crossy's instructions. I now have the proper 3 point plug (added schuko adapter), so the machine should be grounded.

I was interested in what you said about corrosion being caused by lack of correct grounding. How does this cause corrosion?

[tropo]

@Tropo, I see from an earlier post you now have a Schuko adaptor and that you've tested the outlet earth with a lamp as I said earlier (the lamp lit)

Excellent. You now have a grounded machine that won't bite.

For your peace of mind only: To be sure it won't bite, you need to find a ground that isn't part of your electrics and measure the AC voltage between the machine and that ground. A big screwdriver in the lawn works well if you can attach a long lead to it, otherwise part of the building steel will do (a balcony rail maybe).

If you don't have a meter, just touch a bare metal part of the machine with the back of your knuckles, you'll soon know if it's OK (using the back of your hand means any reaction will pull you away). To be honest, from what you've said your good lady is now safe.

Thanks very much for you help. I will try your "back of knuckles" suggestion as I don't see any other grounds to use other than the one the machine uses at the outlet.

[Nooky2]

I was a master electrician in the US and what I have seen for wiring here is absolutely frightful.

You may have two problems. The ground as most are talking about here eliminates the problem IF the polarity is correct. The Thais don't understand that AC and DC have different color codes. With DC black is ground and AC black is hot or positive. They wire everything here as if it's DC. Every house I have lived in here had polarity problems. Some electrical sockets are wired for black or white on the hot side which will give you an electrical shock when you use something such as your washing machine or other appliance. Most times they will wire the panel correctly and reverse colors at the outlets.

So to explain what is correct. For AC black is positive, white is negative. On your electrical outlets, where you would plug an appliance in there are two sizes of slots. the small one is positive/black, the large one is negative/white. Obviously the round slot is ground if you have it. Also, when connecting your wires to the outlet from the inside, the positive is gold colored and the negative is silver colored, then the ground is green.

In your electrical panel you will usually have two bars to connect your white and green wires. One bar for white, one for green. These bars are connected together by a screw or wire and then a ground rod should be driven and a wire connected to these bars and the ground rod. The black wire goes to the fuse/breaker. It is rare that a ground rod exist at the panel and this is where you would drive a ground rod at the appliance. You can drill a hole in the concrete large enough for the rod then drive it in and connect a wire from the rod to the frame of your appliance.

You will generally only see other colors such as red or blue for 3-way light switches.

To summarize:

black wire / gold screw / small slot / hot

white wire / silver screw / large slot / neutral

green wire / green screw / round slot

If your polarity is correct then continue with the grounding as others have suggested. You don't want to ground your washing machine it the polarity is reversed. Fix that first.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Nooky2

[cracker1]

You possibly have a fault with the machine and should get it checked. Regardless of a fault or not you should earth the machine. Best way is drive a bout two meters of 5/8" reinforcing into the ground (leave 6" out) and connect a wire from the back cover of the machine to the reinforcing rod with a hose clip. Try and keep the land surrounding the rod damp for better earthing.

[Nooky2]

You possibly have a fault with the machine and should get it checked. Regardless of a fault or not you should earth the machine. Best way is drive a bout two meters of 5/8" reinforcing into the ground (leave 6" out) and connect a wire from the back cover of the machine to the reinforcing rod with a hose clip. Try and keep the land surrounding the rod damp for better earthing.

Actually, they have a clamp specifically for the grounding rod which is much stronger and less chance of loosing contact. You don't need to leave 6 inches out of the floor. You can clamp your wire on the end of the rod and then finish driving the rod nearly flush with the floor.

[SpectrumAudio]

Does anyone have a good person that can rewire my whole house? I'm in the nonthaburi area near the main amper maung offices. I want to chagpnge my single phase 2 wire service to 3 phase 5 wire service and rerun all my outlets to usa/EU standards.

[Nooky2]

Does anyone have a good person that can rewire my whole house? I'm in the nonthaburi area near the main amper maung offices. I want to chagpnge my single phase 2 wire service to 3 phase 5 wire service and rerun all my outlets to usa/EU standards.

Good luck with that. I haven't seen a competent electrician here yet. They may exist but they would be hard to find. Most will lie to you to get the job and then get their neighbor to help them figure it out.

You must have 3-phase motors that you want to run.

[thaibeachlovers]

Read the section on this page about Schuko plug adaptors http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/plugs.html

Then go and buy one.

Else, drive a local ground rod for the machine and run a wire to a case screw, if you have a suitable metal pipe you can use that instead of the rod.

The shock your lady felt is probably not a fault, it is caused my mains leakage through the mains filter which appliances with electronic power control have (your desktop computer will do the same).

If you are not sure whether the 3rd pin of your outlets is actually ground you can either get one of the power extension leads with indicator lamps which tell you, or put a small lamp (15W) between the ground and live connections, if it lights ground is reasonable.

Crossy, are you saying that it's normal for a desktop computer to give a shock off the casing if not grounded? I bought one that did that, but returned it to the shop.

As many ?most Thai houses are ungrounded, it seems strange to be selling appliances that give shocks.

[thaibeachlovers]

I was a master electrician in the US and what I have seen for wiring here is absolutely frightful.

You may have two problems. The ground as most are talking about here eliminates the problem IF the polarity is correct. The Thais don't understand that AC and DC have different color codes. With DC black is ground and AC black is hot or positive. They wire everything here as if it's DC. Every house I have lived in here had polarity problems. Some electrical sockets are wired for black or white on the hot side which will give you an electrical shock when you use something such as your washing machine or other appliance. Most times they will wire the panel correctly and reverse colors at the outlets.

So to explain what is correct. For AC black is positive, white is negative. On your electrical outlets, where you would plug an appliance in there are two sizes of slots. the small one is positive/black, the large one is negative/white. Obviously the round slot is ground if you have it. Also, when connecting your wires to the outlet from the inside, the positive is gold colored and the negative is silver colored, then the ground is green.

In your electrical panel you will usually have two bars to connect your white and green wires. One bar for white, one for green. These bars are connected together by a screw or wire and then a ground rod should be driven and a wire connected to these bars and the ground rod. The black wire goes to the fuse/breaker. It is rare that a ground rod exist at the panel and this is where you would drive a ground rod at the appliance. You can drill a hole in the concrete large enough for the rod then drive it in and connect a wire from the rod to the frame of your appliance.

You will generally only see other colors such as red or blue for 3-way light switches.

To summarize:

black wire / gold screw / small slot / hot

white wire / silver screw / large slot / neutral

green wire / green screw / round slot

If your polarity is correct then continue with the grounding as others have suggested. You don't want to ground your washing machine it the polarity is reversed. Fix that first.

My AC was installed by a man ( won't call him an electrician ) that actually tried to join two pieces of 2 core to the opposite colour wire ie black to grey, grey to black. Hard to believe, but true. Of course he was just going to twist and tape too.

After he left I had to redo everything he did.

[Crossy]

Crossy, are you saying that it's normal for a desktop computer to give a shock off the casing if not grounded? I bought one that did that, but returned it to the shop.

As many ?most Thai houses are ungrounded, it seems strange to be selling appliances that give shocks.

They don't shock when correctly installed. Most require a functional ground for the mains filter to operate correctly, with no ground the filter floats the metalwork to about 50% of mains.

It doesn't need a very good ground to kill the tickle as the source impedance is quite high, if you're wearing shoes or on carpet you probably won't even feel it.

Reversing the mains plug can often reduce (or increase) the level of tingle.

[thaibeachlovers]

Crossy, are you saying that it's normal for a desktop computer to give a shock off the casing if not grounded? I bought one that did that, but returned it to the shop.

As many ?most Thai houses are ungrounded, it seems strange to be selling appliances that give shocks.

They don't shock when correctly installed. Most require a functional ground for the mains filter to operate correctly, with no ground the filter floats the metalwork to about 50% of mains.

It doesn't need a very good ground to kill the tickle as the source impedance is quite high, if you're wearing shoes or on carpet you probably won't even feel it.

Reversing the mains plug can often reduce (or increase) the level of tingle.

Thanks Crossy. In the case of my computer purchase, the "tingle" was significant.

[LeeTheCelt]

This may well have already been said, so sorry if i am repeating what some one has already told you.

First up you have a fault on the machine, if you had a proper earth connection, it would keep blowing the MCB (miniature circuit breaker) so that leads on to the second problem, you don't have an adequate earth connection & as has been mentioned earlier, the said fault now has an earth path through you or your wife.

[worgeordie]

Obvious question why has the shower room got

electrical outlets anyway!? thats a really stupid

thing to do,and could easily result in death.

When our house was getting built,the sparky

wanted to put the light switch inside the

bathroom! they have no idea just how lethal

electricity can be, for some of them a 3 inch nail

knocked into the wall with earth wire wrapped

around it is a good job!, anyway I got some pull

light switches from UK and fitted them.

If you can you need to move the washer outside

if possible,AND make sure its earthed,electricity

and water do not mix.

regards Worgeordie

Yeah that's right keep the machine outside . The hot sun ,wind ,rain and elements do wonders for the machines longevity oh not to mention safety too .The rats get fried first Light switches outside the bathroom !!!....

You have a strange way of thinking,if you thought I meant in the open, OUTSIDE under cover,I thought I would not need to say undercover as a reasonable,sensible person would would know that,BUT not you, and I take it you light switches are INSIDE your bathroom?!!, make sure to dry your hands before turning on/off,next time i will make my posts a lot clearer just for you, regards Worgeordie

[jocko]

This is very common in Thailand. Usually shoddy electricians are to blame as well as the humidity.

You have 3 prongs (sometimes 2) on most devices. One is L which is your Live wire, one is N which is Neutral and one is E which is Earth. Not all appliances have an Earth prong (Usually the appliances that are completely sealed with some kind of non conductive material, like plastic) but your washer does since it does have a metal chasis -- You have 2 possibilities here.

1: Your machine is faulty or has something that shorting the Live elec wire with the Earth (Since earth is usually connected to the chassis of the machine)

2: You wiring in your house is faulty and something is crossing Live elec with the Earth.

You can go about this 2 ways to check which one is the culprit.

1) Go to the hardware store, purchase a current testing screwdriver. something like this - http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz/wickes/invt/500525/Screwdriver-Mains-Tester_large.jpg

2) Hold the screwdriver with your hand touching the metal at the butt end of the screw driver and insert the screwdriver into the middle earth prong of socket of the electricity outlet you plug your washer into.

If you see the light in the screw driver light up, then you have an earth leakage and I would suggest you call a GOOD electrician. I would also check other outlets around the house also, just to be safe. I would also try unplug everything in the house also just to be 100% sure that it's the wiring causing the earth leak and not another appliance (since Earth can be shared across all the wiring in the house)

Hope this makes sense. Good luck, sir!

This seems a simple test to carry out but i am confused about hold the screw driver with your hand touching the metal part at the handle end if there was a problem would you not get a buzz and your nose would light up?

[jocko]

Obvious question why has the shower room got

electrical outlets anyway!? thats a really stupid

thing to do,and could easily result in death.

When our house was getting built,the sparky

wanted to put the light switch inside the

bathroom! they have no idea just how lethal

electricity can be, for some of them a 3 inch nail

knocked into the wall with earth wire wrapped

around it is a good job!, anyway I got some pull

light switches from UK and fitted them.

If you can you need to move the washer outside

if possible,AND make sure its earthed,electricity

and water do not mix.

regards Worgeordie

Yeah that's right keep the machine outside . The hot sun ,wind ,rain and elements do wonders for the machines longevity oh not to mention safety too .The rats get fried first Light switches outside the bathroom !!!....

You have a strange way of thinking,if you thought I meant in the open, OUTSIDE under cover,I thought I would not need to say undercover as a reasonable,sensible person would would know that,BUT not you, and I take it you light switches are INSIDE your bathroom?!!, make sure to dry your hands before turning on/off,next time i will make my posts a lot clearer just for you, regards Worgeordie

In both the house's i have had the washing machine has been outside under cover without any problems.

[Muhendis]

Jocko

With regard to phase tester screwdrivers, here is a note I placed on another thread.

"Further information about neon phase tester screwdrivers (for the technically curious).

The striking voltage for neon is about 90v and the hysteresis is about 50% (I do not use precise figures because of slight variation between neon bulbs).

So the neon bulb will not extinguish until the voltage across it has reduced to <45v (63.6v rms).

The ac voltage would need to be 90v peak (180v p-p 127.3v rms) before the neon would light.

Once the neon lights the current that flows through the bulb needs to be limited to a safe level. To do this a 1,000,000 Ohm (1M Ohm) resistor is included in series with the bulb.

When checking the 220v live wire the current flowing, disregarding the human body resistance, would be (220v rms - 63.6vrms (from 45v pk)) / 1M Ohm = 0.16mA.

Personally when I buy a new phase tester I first check the resistor.

If the phase tester lights up on both the live and the neutral (yes they must both be checked) then there are problems that need expert attention".

Please rest assured that as long as you don't touch the blade of the screwdriver at the same time as it (the blade) touches the live wire you will be unaffected by the electricity. Incidentally phase testers don't measure anything. They light up when the voltage on the blade that you contact to the live wire is high enough. Obviously there is a downside to relying too much on the phase tester. From the above calculations the wire could be thought to be safe if the neon did not light. However in theory, there could still be a high level of voltage existing (over 100v). Common sense should be applied. If all appliances in the house seem to be working normally then it is probable that there is somewhere in the region of 220v present and not a meagre 100v.