Do you think you would ever fit in back "home" if you returned?

[ericnoodeeka]

well i will get lambasted by all the farrangs who think they are more thai than the thais, but i must say, if u not stuck here, and u can choose to go back or not to educate ur children, i truly believe there is no dilema. if u can afford it, take ur kids abroad for education. u can always come back to retire in 20 years.

i love thailand and its laid back attitude, but in studies, its toooooo laid back, its bloody horizontal.but i cant deny i like the way of life. just not just yet for my little monkies.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

And, the highest educational level you attained is?

Masters Degree in Law.

It doesn't show.

You have to pay me first!

[Kananga]

How exactly is wanting to provide the best education for my children and seeing the importance of a good education a middle class dream which was programmed into me by my government???

What a strange thing to say.

You are clearly unhappy with your life and living through hopes for your children.

Your children will know you are unhappy and in their turn will live an unhappy life.

The western middle class dream is to learn more, earn more and spend more.

It is just a dream because it just perpetuates a lifestyle of greed and unhappiness.

Most of the truly happy people I know own very little, earn very little, have a poor educational level but enjoy their life to the full.

AnpotherOneAmerican,

I think it is important to point something out.

Kanaga is British, you are an American - British and American definitions of middle class are completely different, so different that they basically do not understand each other when discussing the subject.

As you rightly observe, American middle class is defined by income and a consumer life style (you are incorrect to say this is a government generated dream - it is intact generated by the banks and corporations).

British definitions of middle class have almost nothing to do with income or consumerism patterns. British middle class is defined by aspiration, education and by participation in a set of values - a rejection of consumerism is a defining characteristic of British Middle Class.

To put this in perspective, a British person who works in finance earning £150,000 living in a five bedroom house in a desirable neighbourhood, with a bunch of top of the range cars on the drive and the house full of all the most desirable consumer goods would not necessarily be middle class.

Where as a little old lady, educated at Oxford, who lives in a rented apartment, earns £35,000 a year, teaches for a living, owns a bicycle but no car, and buys all her clothes at charity shops almost certainly would be Middle Class.

So you are right, your view of middle class is income and consumption - and that is a treadmill that anyone might want to get off - but you are wrong in believing the government are enslaving you - No, you have believed the adverts the corporate world sold you and you enslaved yourself.

And Kanaga's right, he wants the best education for his family and a set of values which he knows will serve his children well in life - no doubt he has noticed the American consumer definition of a good middle class life is rapidly worming itself into Thailand.....

Excellent points. Thank you.

[Kananga]

And, the highest educational level you attained is?

Masters Degree in Law.

It doesn't show.

You have to pay me first!

Says the man who has rejected consumerism and thinks money doesn't equal happiness.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

You have to pay me first!

Says the man who has rejected consumerism and thinks money doesn't equal happiness.

Some things you just can't change.

[ericnoodeeka]

How exactly is wanting to provide the best education for my children and seeing the importance of a good education a middle class dream which was programmed into me by my government???

What a strange thing to say.

You are clearly unhappy with your life and living through hopes for your children.

Your children will know you are unhappy and in their turn will live an unhappy life.

The western middle class dream is to learn more, earn more and spend more.

It is just a dream because it just perpetuates a lifestyle of greed and unhappiness.

Most of the truly happy people I know own very little, earn very little, have a poor educational level but enjoy their life to the full.

How on earth have you come to the conclusion that I am unhappy with my life?

Surely the more you earn the more places on the planet you can travel to, to experience other cultures and different ways of life and have a more open mind. To be better educated means to be able to make better decisions on your health, your children's health and to provide a more comfortable homestead for them. Seems to me a better option than living on a dusty tin roof farm in blissful ignorance while your teeth all fall out and you pray to some imaginary god for better luck in the next life. Surely its better to provide your children with the means to not live like that if they dont share your peasant sentiment instead of condemning them to that life too without giving them a chance to do more with their lives.

Anyway, you are not going to convince me that doing the most for my children is a bad thing, and your opinion is in the firm minority here for a good reason.

a very true and accurate evaluation.you're them man.refreshingly nice to read a clear and sensible assumption .peace man.

[Kananga]

You have to pay me first!

Says the man who has rejected consumerism and thinks money doesn't equal happiness.

Some things you just can't change.

Yep. The mind of an ignorant man also springs to mind.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

You have to pay me first!

Says the man who has rejected consumerism and thinks money doesn't equal happiness.

Some things you just can't change.

Yep. The mind of an ignorant man also springs to mind.

So tell us, are you happy?

[rayongchelsea]

Money gives you choice.

American ain't got any so he is justifying his opinion.

I mean money in the sense to send his child to a top international school where he lives, where they teach respect, teach you to question why, do after school activities etc..engage you..instill confidence, make you proficient in English ( super important)..etc..

Happiness comes in many forms, one of those is seeing your child being well educated and given opportunities..really there is no counter argument.

[Kananga]

Says the man who has rejected consumerism and thinks money doesn't equal happiness.

Some things you just can't change.

Yep. The mind of an ignorant man also springs to mind.

So tell us, are you happy?

Yes, very happy. My marriage is good. My wife is the right side of 30. Both my kids are healthy and doing well in school. I will soon be returning home (by choice) after over a decade away. I'm not overweight, I have close friends. My job is reasonably well paid and not at all stressful.

No reason not to be happy come to think of it.

[historyprof]

Yes, very happy. My marriage is good. My wife is the right side of 30. Both my kids are healthy and doing well in school. I will soon be returning home (by choice) after over a decade away. I'm not overweight, I have close friends. My job is reasonably well paid and not at all stressful.

No reason not to be happy come to think of it.

I responded to you before but put it in the Thai education thread because I thought this thread was about fitting in back home not Thai education. BTW I think you would fit in back home if your home is the same place as Guesthouse.

[Kananga]

Yes, very happy. My marriage is good. My wife is the right side of 30. Both my kids are healthy and doing well in school. I will soon be returning home (by choice) after over a decade away. I'm not overweight, I have close friends. My job is reasonably well paid and not at all stressful.

No reason not to be happy come to think of it.

I responded to you before but put it in the Thai education thread because I thought this thread was about fitting in back home not Thai education. BTW I think you would fit in back home if your home is the same place as Guesthouse.

Yes this thread is about fitting in back home, and an aspect of this is even if you feel you dont fit in back home, it is worth making that sacrifice for your children's education if you care enough about them and their future.

[elektrified]

Do you honestly think your child that went on to be a successful doctor would have been able to if they had been educated in the thai system? The majority of thai doctors in private healthcare in Thailand were educated in the west.

You are wrong, 95% of doctors in Thailand attended Thai government schools.

If you had the money to educate your kids in the west, you wouldn't want them working as doctors in Thailand.

That would be considered a total failure.

I disagree with the figure. Far, far less than 95% of doctors working in private practice in Thailand attended Thai government schools. The majority in private practice studied abroad. That is a fact.

[elektrified]

And, the highest educational level you attained is?

Masters Degree in Law.

It doesn't show.

He sounds British to me. In the U.S. I have many friends who are lawyers and they all have J.D. degrees. Does anyone know an American lawyer with a M.LL.? And I've never heard the term "shelf stacker" in the USA. Surely that is a British term. No? He's just having fun with the debate I think.

Edited September 7, 2013 by elektrified

[salapau]

What a sad post. If you felt that you didn't fit in before you left why do you think about going back ?

[historyprof]

Do you honestly think your child that went on to be a successful doctor would have been able to if they had been educated in the thai system? The majority of thai doctors in private healthcare in Thailand were educated in the west.

You are wrong, 95% of doctors in Thailand attended Thai government schools.

If you had the money to educate your kids in the west, you wouldn't want them working as doctors in Thailand.

That would be considered a total failure.

I disagree with the figure. Far, far less than 95% of doctors working in private practice in Thailand attended Thai government schools. The majority in private practice studied abroad. That is a fact.

I went to http://www.bangkokhospital.com/index.php?p=search_doctor and I got about 5% trained in the West. Maybe someone else with more time can check more. Far as I can see it's 5% West training but maybe I didn't check enough or just clicked on the wrong doctors. In checking the Bangkok hospital chain outside of tourist cities I could not find any Western trained Doctors but I may have not looked good enough.

Edited September 7, 2013 by historyprof

[historyprof]

And, the highest educational level you attained is?

Masters Degree in Law.

It doesn't show.

He sounds British to me. In the U.S. I have many friends who are lawyers and they all have J.D. degrees. Does anyone know an American lawyer with a M.LL.? And I've never heard the term "shelf stacker" in the USA. Surely that is a British term. No? He's just having fun with the debate I think.

USA would be stock clerk or stocker.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

USA would be stock clerk or stocker.

http://www.skillpages.com/in-store-shelf-stacker/fairfield-united-states/eva-maria.justice

[AnotherOneAmerican]

In the U.S. I have many friends who are lawyers and they all have J.D. degrees. Does anyone know an American lawyer with a M.LL.? And I've never heard the term "shelf stacker" in the USA. Surely that is a British term. No? He's just having fun with the debate I think.

LL.M. is higher than J.D. (J.D. is same a LL.B.)

One level above LL.M. is S.J.D. (Which is the law equivalent of Ph.D. or LL.D.)

Edited September 7, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[historyprof]

USA would be stock clerk or stocker.

http://www.skillpages.com/in-store-shelf-stacker/fairfield-united-states/eva-maria.justice

Look to the left on that page. It is called stocking in the USA.

People with Similar Skills

• Alicia Stocking Shelves

  Annette Stocker

• Melinda Stocking
• Janet Stocking Shelves
• Rosalind Shelf Stocker

Edited September 7, 2013 by historyprof

[HardenedSoul]

So you are right, your view of middle class is income and consumption - and that is a treadmill that anyone might want to get off - but you are wrong in believing the government are enslaving you - No, you have believed the adverts the corporate world sold you and you enslaved yourself.

And Kanaga's right, he wants the best education for his family and a set of values which he knows will serve his children well in life - no doubt he has noticed the American consumer definition of a good middle class life is rapidly worming itself into Thailand.....

Largely in agreement with that GH but I think governments are just as complicit.

How else would we become good little taxpayers?

It would have been impossible for the banks in the West to do what they did with subprime without government involvement.

Things like repealing Glass-Steagall which segregated retail and investment banking activities, setting up the likes of Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae to deliberately increase home-ownership in the US are just two examples of that complicity.

Yes, of course, one does have to make the decision to become "part of the game" but for almost everyone, it's made on a purely sub-conscious level.

We're expected to go to school, decide on a career, go to uni, get a job, consume, buy real estate, meet a girl/boy, marry, have kids, consume some more.

By the time we realise we're enslaved, it's usually too late.

You can't bin the mortgage, the credit cards, the wife/husband, the kids - you're trapped financially and emotionally.

[slipperylobster]

I feel like the invisible man back home..... compared to the looks i get here!

I fell very invisible here in Pattaya.

Now try the Philippines or Indonesia or Japan and you are not invisible anymore.

I been working in those 3 places so I know.

I got it. Worked and lived in Japan six years straight. Also lived in Subic Bay, Philippines 15 years straight before coming here. That is what I call Invisible !!!

[FangFerang]

Would you be able to fit back in(socially)? Personally, I never really fit in when I left so I don't think I'd fit in too well now after a half decade living abroad. I feel like I'm no longer a citizen and losing my sense of ties to my home country and the people who live there. I don't think I can relate to them anymore.

I left the US about 40 years ago. I've returned a few times for visits and stayed a couple of times for a couple of years while back at university.

My first return was after a 4 year stay in southern Africa and I really felt like an alien back in the US. Subsequent visits didn't seem as much of a re-emersion trauma, but when it came time for me to retire I knew that returning to the US wasn't really something I would want to do. If nothing else, watching from a distance during the 8 years that the Bush-Cheney cabal destroyed the country convinced me that the idea of home I had stored away in my memories had been replaced by something I could never hope to understand.

I still feel connected to the US, but I knew that coping with retiring from work and at the same time trying to re-assimilate into a society that quite often strikes me as incomprehensible was a little more than I wanted to deal with.

Obviously a lot of people who spent most of their lives in the US or Europe or wherever, then stopped working and moved to Thailand are having tremendous difficulty in coping with so many changes in their lives and the loss of their support systems. As a consequence many have taken up the hobby of whining incessantly and blaming Thailand for all their personal problems. I could easily see falling into the same self-absorbed trap if I returned to the US.

And practically speaking, all my close friends lived in the Chicago area. At this point in life most of those I keep in contact with have spread out across the country from Arizona to Florida to Wisconsin and so on, so my continued contact with them would still be mostly by email or telephone. Besides that, too much of the America I think of when I think of home looks like this too much of the year. Ugh.

Well said, and my situation and opinions are very much in agreement with you. I have a faint hope that some in the intelligence community have a balanced view of assets and liabilities.... but it is a faint tone.

[Kananga]

So you are right, your view of middle class is income and consumption - and that is a treadmill that anyone might want to get off - but you are wrong in believing the government are enslaving you - No, you have believed the adverts the corporate world sold you and you enslaved yourself.

And Kanaga's right, he wants the best education for his family and a set of values which he knows will serve his children well in life - no doubt he has noticed the American consumer definition of a good middle class life is rapidly worming itself into Thailand.....

Largely in agreement with that GH but I think governments are just as complicit.

How else would we become good little taxpayers?

It would have been impossible for the banks in the West to do what they did with subprime without government involvement.

Things like repealing Glass-Steagall which segregated retail and investment banking activities, setting up the likes of Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae to deliberately increase home-ownership in the US are just two examples of that complicity.

Yes, of course, one does have to make the decision to become "part of the game" but for almost everyone, it's made on a purely sub-conscious level.

We're expected to go to school, decide on a career, go to uni, get a job, consume, buy real estate, meet a girl/boy, marry, have kids, consume some more.

By the time we realise we're enslaved, it's usually too late.

You can't bin the mortgage, the credit cards, the wife/husband, the kids - you're trapped financially and emotionally.

Why can't you bin the mortgage and credit cards? I don't have any personal debt. Anyway, whats wrong with purchasing your own home so you have something to leave your kids? Or to sell if you need funds later in life, or rent it out so you can have additional income while you travel the world. Seems a bit silly to not want to improve your finances. Whats the other option? Renting. Paying off someone else's mortgage instead of your own. Genius.

Why would you want to bin your family?

You know its funny, I'm sure the majority of posters who have retired over here who talk about not being part of 'the system' are on pensions they built up in the west or from leasing out property in the west they bought in the west with a mortgage and need the system to keep on rolling for them to have any form of income.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Kananga

[historyprof]

So you are right, your view of middle class is income and consumption - and that is a treadmill that anyone might want to get off - but you are wrong in believing the government are enslaving you - No, you have believed the adverts the corporate world sold you and you enslaved yourself.

And Kanaga's right, he wants the best education for his family and a set of values which he knows will serve his children well in life - no doubt he has noticed the American consumer definition of a good middle class life is rapidly worming itself into Thailand.....

Largely in agreement with that GH but I think governments are just as complicit.

How else would we become good little taxpayers?

It would have been impossible for the banks in the West to do what they did with subprime without government involvement.

Things like repealing Glass-Steagall which segregated retail and investment banking activities, setting up the likes of Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae to deliberately increase home-ownership in the US are just two examples of that complicity.

Yes, of course, one does have to make the decision to become "part of the game" but for almost everyone, it's made on a purely sub-conscious level.

We're expected to go to school, decide on a career, go to uni, get a job, consume, buy real estate, meet a girl/boy, marry, have kids, consume some more.

By the time we realise we're enslaved, it's usually too late.

You can't bin the mortgage, the credit cards, the wife/husband, the kids - you're trapped financially and emotionally.

Why can't you bin the mortgage and credit cards? I don't have any personal debt. Anyway, whats wrong with purchasing your own home so you have something to leave your kids? Or to sell if you need funds later in life, or rent it out so you can have additional income while you travel the world. Seems a bit silly to not want to improve your finances. Whats the other option? Renting. Paying off someone else's mortgage instead of your own. Genius.

Why would you want to bin your family?

You know its funny, I'm sure the majority of posters who have retired over here who talk about not being part of 'the system' are on pensions they built up in the west or from leasing out property in the west they bought in the west with a mortgage and need the system to keep on rolling for them to have any form of income.

What retired posters talk about not being part of the system? I've never read one!

[HardenedSoul]

Largely in agreement with that GH but I think governments are just as complicit.

How else would we become good little taxpayers?

It would have been impossible for the banks in the West to do what they did with subprime without government involvement.

Things like repealing Glass-Steagall which segregated retail and investment banking activities, setting up the likes of Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae to deliberately increase home-ownership in the US are just two examples of that complicity.

Yes, of course, one does have to make the decision to become "part of the game" but for almost everyone, it's made on a purely sub-conscious level.

We're expected to go to school, decide on a career, go to uni, get a job, consume, buy real estate, meet a girl/boy, marry, have kids, consume some more.

By the time we realise we're enslaved, it's usually too late.

You can't bin the mortgage, the credit cards, the wife/husband, the kids - you're trapped financially and emotionally.

Why can't you bin the mortgage and credit cards? I don't have any personal debt. Anyway, whats wrong with purchasing your own home so you have something to leave your kids? Or to sell if you need funds later in life, or rent it out so you can have additional income while you travel the world. Seems a bit silly to not want to improve your finances. Whats the other option? Renting. Paying off someone else's mortgage instead of your own. Genius.

Why would you want to bin your family?

You know its funny, I'm sure the majority of posters who have retired over here who talk about not being part of 'the system' are on pensions they built up in the west or from leasing out property in the west they bought in the west with a mortgage and need the system to keep on rolling for them to have any form of income.

The point I was making is that although one can bin the mortgage, most people who dream about "quitting the game" can't because they're too scared to do so.

As with so much in life, fear is what keeps people trapped rather than any tangible impediment to breaking free.

I'm sure most of us have acquaintances or friends who "admire" our "fortitude" and/or "courage" to up sticks and move halfway around the world to live in a country where we don't know anyone, don't speak the language and have no support structure but our own resourcefulness. "I just couldn't do it, couldn't leave the GF, couldn't leave my friends, couldn't jack in the job/career, couldn't leave this, couldn't leave that" is the typical refrain.

That's a programmed response because more often than not, the reality of the situation is that the GF's a pain in the arse who's making the wrong noises about marriage and kids, their friends just hang out down the same old boozer, the job's soul-destroying and they haven't had a pay rise for 3 years.

A lot of the time - NOT all - what they really mean is, "I'm terrified I wouldn't be able to cut it so I'll just keep numbing myself to the mediocrity of it all by buying as much consumer tat as my salary allows, knocking up the bird, by making my shoebox studio as comfy as possible and keep trying to force a square peg into the round hole of society's expectations because, if nothing else, at least I'll be like everyone else."

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Anyway, whats wrong with purchasing your own home so you have something to leave your kids? Or to sell if you need funds later in life, or rent it out so you can have additional income while you travel the world. Seems a bit silly to not want to improve your finances. Whats the other option? Renting. Paying off someone else's mortgage instead of your own. Genius.

If you live in the west and buy a house, as a man you risk losing it all to your wife.

If you rented the house, and kept your savings in a 'secret' bank account, you would have it to travel the world.

The basic mistake is in thinking as a man you can own anything in the west. Unless you avoid all sex and relationships with women.

You say you have kids, in the UK a divorce will get her 100% ownership of the house, no splitting.

PS

She won't leave it to the kids, after divorce she will sell it and spend the money.

Edited September 7, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[MrWorldwide]

I think he meant 'retarded', not 'retired' .....

[GuestHouse]

Anyway, whats wrong with purchasing your own home so you have something to leave your kids? Or to sell if you need funds later in life, or rent it out so you can have additional income while you travel the world. Seems a bit silly to not want to improve your finances. Whats the other option? Renting. Paying off someone else's mortgage instead of your own. Genius.

If you live in the west and buy a house, as a man you risk losing it all to your wife.

If you rented the house, and kept your savings in a 'secret' bank account, you would have it to travel the world.

The basic mistake is in thinking as a man you can own anything in the west. Unless you avoid all sex and relationships with women.

You say you have kids, in the UK a divorce will get her 100% ownership of the house, no splitting.

PS

She won't leave it to the kids, after divorce she will sell it and spend the money.

Ah...... Another expat with women problems.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Anyway, whats wrong with purchasing your own home so you have something to leave your kids? Or to sell if you need funds later in life, or rent it out so you can have additional income while you travel the world. Seems a bit silly to not want to improve your finances. Whats the other option? Renting. Paying off someone else's mortgage instead of your own. Genius.

If you live in the west and buy a house, as a man you risk losing it all to your wife.

If you rented the house, and kept your savings in a 'secret' bank account, you would have it to travel the world.

The basic mistake is in thinking as a man you can own anything in the west. Unless you avoid all sex and relationships with women.

You say you have kids, in the UK a divorce will get her 100% ownership of the house, no splitting.

PS

She won't leave it to the kids, after divorce she will sell it and spend the money.

Ah...... Another expat with women problems.

Isn't that why we all came here?

(I'm not an expat by the way)